White Tower Reunification Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Declan]

i am wondering if Tylee will start moving up in the ranks of the Blood and so forth for her services and bringing in more territory; peacefully might i add.

 

She is an interesting character and we have definitely not seen the last of her. Just by having her in this book and being the first Seanchan to be attacked by trollocs means that she will be in the rest.

[wvlr2]

For what it's worth, I agree with Luckers.  There's more danger ahead for Egwene.

 

Tylee is an interesting choice.  She's the one who is already thinking that the Seanchan need to ally with the Randlanders rather than fight them.  She would fit that dream scenario better than any other Seanchan we've met.

 

I agree as well, although Tylee may have lost some status (for a little while) for advising (meekly) Tuon to make allies instead of war.

[wvlr2]

Sorry about the double post but this is a completely different line of thought.

 

Don't take these issues this wrong - I loved TGS - and all the others.   Sure some of the books are better than others but they are all great!

 

My issue is that most of what Eggy does is GREAT!    She has enough sense to go get a power booster (rod) and understands that it is Vital to keep the Seanchan from getting away with AS - Especially Traveling!!     BUT!!    How can she forget that she has a whole Army of men and AS right there!     Sure I can understand that she might not actually bring them into the WT, but she could have opened a Travel weave to the Rebal traveling ground & sent Nicole.    The Rebals had traveling, inverting weaves, reversing weaves, circles and since her AS were outside - they had time to organize/prepare a little.    If not bring them to the WT (it might have been a good time to do that actually but I am assuming not here)    

 

She should have had them form a ring of traveling/inverting/reversing/circles all aroung the WT to knock down every single Seanchan beast that came by (going or coming).    They could have had the groups augmented with the Army and Warders in case they managed to pull any loaded beasts.    The AS Circles should have beat the hell out of the Seanchan channelers.

 

On top of that !!!   As SOON as she was Full Amyridian(sp) (actually after the BA Purge) she should have immediately gathered the Warders from the kidnapped AS and used them as guides for multiple traveling/inverting/reversing/circles to rescue all the kidnapped AS!    As I said before -  AS Circles should beat the hell out of the Seanchan channelers.

 

 

Edited to add:

 

Come ON!      Every minute wasted gives the Seanchan more time to learn Traveling +++.      Get off your AS Butts!!

[wasted]

I post this in here, because i can't find a better suited thread.

 

It is my opinion, that Elaida a'Roihan will really make *the most perfect* damane.

Why do i say this?

 

CoS, Chapter 32 :

 

"  "I—" Elaida tried to look away. Oh, Light, she had to think! Her belly was

clenched in a knot. "I will—do—as I—am told."            "

 

In fact, this very scene had me wondering a couple of times.

I always thought Egwene would somehow without even knowing, use this against Elaida and then exploit it.

 

I also couldn't understand how Alviarin could just sit back and accept Elaida's firing her as Keeper.

Why not simply tell Elaida, that she will soummon Alviarin once per day, to get new instructions or the like.

 

There is no need for her to *be* the Keeper to mess everything up.

Just continue telling Elaida to.

 

Really, whats the deal?

[Bob T Dwarf]

If you look closely enough at any of the books, you're going to find many such clumsy devices and plot holes.

 

None of the characters behave with much in the way of intelligence or common sense.  We just have to continue to hope that Jordan had a good reason for writing them all this way.

[Sentinel78]

BUT!!    How can she forget that she has a whole Army of men and AS right there!    Sure I can understand that she might not actually bring them into the WT, but she could have opened a Travel weave to the Rebal traveling ground & sent Nicole.    The Rebals had traveling, inverting weaves, reversing weaves, circles and since her AS were outside - they had time to organize/prepare a little.    If not bring them to the WT (it might have been a good time to do that actually but I am assuming not here)   

 

If Egwene brought them into the Tower, the Aes Sedai in the Tower might very well have thought the Rebels were laying siege to the Tower to try to take advantage of the confusion caused by the Seanchan raid.  Common enemies are great at facilitating unification, but a 'misunderstanding' in that circumstance might have made reunification impossible. 

[Jemlin]

Sorry about the double post but this is a completely different line of thought.

 

Don't take these issues this wrong - I loved TGS - and all the others.   Sure some of the books are better than others but they are all great!

 

My issue is that most of what Eggy does is GREAT!    She has enough sense to go get a power booster (rod) and understands that it is Vital to keep the Seanchan from getting away with AS - Especially Traveling!!     BUT!!    How can she forget that she has a whole Army of men and AS right there!     Sure I can understand that she might not actually bring them into the WT, but she could have opened a Travel weave to the Rebal traveling ground & sent Nicole.    The Rebals had traveling, inverting weaves, reversing weaves, circles and since her AS were outside - they had time to organize/prepare a little.    If not bring them to the WT (it might have been a good time to do that actually but I am assuming not here)    

 

She should have had them form a ring of traveling/inverting/reversing/circles all aroung the WT to knock down every single Seanchan beast that came by (going or coming).    They could have had the groups augmented with the Army and Warders in case they managed to pull any loaded beasts.    The AS Circles should have beat the hell out of the Seanchan channelers.

 

On top of that !!!   As SOON as she was Full Amyridian(sp) (actually after the BA Purge) she should have immediately gathered the Warders from the kidnapped AS and used them as guides for multiple traveling/inverting/reversing/circles to rescue all the kidnapped AS!    As I said before -  AS Circles should beat the hell out of the Seanchan channelers.

 

 

Edited to add:

 

Come ON!      Every minute wasted gives the Seanchan more time to learn Traveling +++.      Get off your AS Butts!!

 

She was the "Burning Woman" a single pillar of vengance against the Seanchan, why would she want or need an army?

 

Regardless of that, the Aes Sedai claim that she managed to only loose 1 out of 40 Aes Sedai her little army found, and loose only 4 out of 60 novices/accepted.  Then she dropped 30 fliers out of the sky her self.  Thats pretty darned amazing for a single woman lol 

 

She probably also felt that she did not have enough time to convince the rest of the Aes Sedai to follow her and fight off the Seanchan.  All of the time it would have taken to convince the squabbaling gaggle of women to follow her, the Seanchan would have successfully taken more and more Aes SEdai under the collar.

[wvlr2]

If Egwene brought them into the Tower, the Aes Sedai in the Tower might very well have thought the Rebels were laying siege to the Tower to try to take advantage of the confusion caused by the Seanchan raid.  Common enemies are great at facilitating unification, but a 'misunderstanding' in that circumstance might have made reunification impossible.  

 

I said "I am assuming not here" meaning I assume that she would not bring the Rebals into the WT,   but (I went on to say) she could have them establish a ring around Tarvlon of Rebal masked (inverted/traveling/reversed/circles) AS to shoot down all the Seanchan beasts that came to/from.

 

 

Edited to add:

 

She was the "Burning Woman" a single pillar of vengance against the Seanchan, why would she want or need an army?

 

Possably to keep the Seanchan from getting Traveling!

 

[Jemlin]

If Egwene brought them into the Tower, the Aes Sedai in the Tower might very well have thought the Rebels were laying siege to the Tower to try to take advantage of the confusion caused by the Seanchan raid.  Common enemies are great at facilitating unification, but a 'misunderstanding' in that circumstance might have made reunification impossible.  

 

I said "I am assuming not here" meaning I assume that she would not bring the Rebals into the WT,   but (I went on to say) she could have them establish a ring around Tarvlon of Rebal masked (inverted/traveling/reversed/circles) AS to shoot down all the Seanchan beasts that came to/from.

 

 

Edited to add:

 

She was the "Burning Woman" a single pillar of vengance against the Seanchan, why would she want or need an army?

 

Possably to keep the Seanchan from getting Traveling!

 

 

Well, also like I said above, I think mostly she felt she did not have enough time.  Remember, before this point, and even after, she did not perceive that she was viewed as Amyrilin to the others, so she would have felt it would take time to convince them.  Even though she was able to convince the Green's head of Ajah to call her Mother rather quickly, I doubt the others would have been so easily convinced.  Time meant more women Collared, and Egwene made it clear she wanted to hit the Seanchan so hard they left and never came back.  POV from the other Aes Sedai show that she was successful, as the Seanchan redirected their attacks to her, and they ended up leaving having taken only 40 Aes Sedai.

 

[wvlr2]

Well she had time to make two trips to the WT basement to get angeral.

 

Considering the the Seanchan got away with enough AS that they WILL get Traveling", I consider her success to be only partial.   

 

Don't get me wrong - I think she did great, but I also think that she could have done better.    She had Nicola who was familiar with the Rebal camp and knew Suian.    Eggy could have woven a Travel way (from the same place that she did her others) to the Rebal Traveling grounds and tied it off.  Then sent Nicola through to the Rebals to deliver her messages, with it "tied off" they could have sent someone back to her easily to get/confirm instructions and maybe to assist her.

[Muad Cheade]

Well she had time to make two trips to the WT basement to get angeral.

 

Considering the the Seanchan got away with enough AS that they WILL get Traveling", I consider her success to be only partial.   

 

Don't get me wrong - I think she did great, but I also think that she could have done better.    She had Nicola who was familiar with the Rebal camp and knew Suian.    Eggy could have woven a Travel way (from the same place that she did her others) to the Rebal Traveling grounds and tied it off.   Then sent Nicola through to the Rebals to deliver her messages, with it "tied off" they could have sent someone back to her easily to get/confirm instructions and maybe to assist her.

 

You have to realize that not all the Aes Sedai were aware the Tower was even under attack. To be honest, I think Suian was the only one to actually figure it out.

 

Also, why would the Hall believe the word of a runaway (Nicola) who went to their enemy and possibly told them secrets? They would undoubtedly argue over whether she was telling the truth. The fact that Egwene has said she was not to be rescued under any circumstances would be another argument.

 

Bringing the army is sending to their deaths as they're going to be vulnerable to the sul'dam and damane. How do you think the Tar Valon Aes Sedai would respond to thousands of men and dozens of Aes Sedai appearing at the Tower at the same time as the Seanchan? One conclusion would be that they were trying to take advantage of the Seanchan attack or he other would be that they were in league with them.

 

Egwene not bringing the Rebels was the right move. Also, regardless of the Rebels coming, the Seanchan would already have an Aes Sedai capable of Traveling as Elaida was the first to be taken and to leave.

[fikkie77]

Well she had time to make two trips to the WT basement to get angeral.

 

Considering the the Seanchan got away with enough AS that they WILL get Traveling", I consider her success to be only partial.   

 

Don't get me wrong - I think she did great, but I also think that she could have done better.    She had Nicola who was familiar with the Rebal camp and knew Suian.    Eggy could have woven a Travel way (from the same place that she did her others) to the Rebal Traveling grounds and tied it off.  Then sent Nicola through to the Rebals to deliver her messages, with it "tied off" they could have sent someone back to her easily to get/confirm instructions and maybe to assist her.

You don't lose time arguing fetchin angreal. They would have lost much time finding the rebel sitters, rebel ajah heads and convincing them what was happening and that their help was needed. And it would certainly ruin Egwenes chances of becoming Amyrlin.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

P.S.  Bringing in the Rebel AS would also give the Seanchen more opportunities to collar "marath'damane".

 

Ditto.

[Tam of the Two Rivers]

I don't think the Rebel AS could have done anything. EG would have just wasted time trying to find someone, wake someone, explain to someone etc, etc. The Seachan would have been collering and taking dozens and dozens while she was doing this.  Even if she just popped in and told SS to link up some AS and shoot down anything that flys over, I don't beleive the AS could have done this. It would have violated their oaths.  They were not in danger and even in thier were AS onboard the raken thier LIVES were not in danger.  Too many varibles.  EG kicking ass was the only way to go.

[Mr Ares]

BUT!! How can she forget that she has a whole Army of men and AS right there! Sure I can understand that she might not actually bring them into the WT, but she could have opened a Travel weave to the Rebal traveling ground & sent Nicole. The Rebals had traveling, inverting weaves, reversing weaves, circles and since her AS were outside - they had time to organize/prepare a little. If not bring them to the WT (it might have been a good time to do that actually but I am assuming not here)

The more Traveling weaves that are used, the greater the chance of the Seanchan learning it. Especially for your proposed rescue missions. As it is, the Rebels are safely out of the way, but if they get involved in the fighting they can get killed or collared too. If they try attacking from a distance, the Three Oaths would prevent it. To'raken leaving the Tower, with AS prisoners? No way the Oaths allow that. Stopping them attacking in the first place might be permissible, but it's a bit too late for that. So it would be left to the Novices. Do the Novices know enough to do serious damage to the fleeing Seanchan?

 

I also couldn't understand how Alviarin could just sit back and accept Elaida's firing her as Keeper.

Why not simply tell Elaida, that she will soummon Alviarin once per day, to get new instructions or the like.

 

There is no need for her to *be* the Keeper to mess everything up.

Just continue telling Elaida to.

 

Really, whats the deal?

It was a fait accompli. Alviarin's hold over Elaida rested in her knowing things that Elaida didn't want to be public. Then she disappears for a bit, and when she returns these things are knwon. Her hold over Elaida has gone. She has no leverage. Why not just tell her to summon Alviarin once a day? Because it would do no good. She wouldn't do it. Alviarin couldn't blackmail her. The secret was out. She had little choice but to accept.

[Kelitor]

Does anyone else find it curious that after Siuan uses Voira's sa'angreal to travel, it is never mentioned again? Adelorna, and presumably the other Aes Sedai in that group, see Egwene using the most powerful sa'angreal the Tower. But when the battle is over, even though Egwene's group survived, she was left alone, nearly unconcious with what is probably the most valuable single object in the Tower. Then she is found and Siuan uses it to Travel and it isn't mentioned again.

 

Later, Egwene doesn't think about it, doesn't seem to be carrying it, and doesn't ask Siuan: "Say, what exactly did you do with that sa'angreal I had on me? Where is it?" and none of Tower Aes Sedai ask her whether the rumors of her using it are true, and where it is...

 

I find this unusual, that's all. I'm wonder if we are making a mistake in assuming that Voira's sa'angreal made it back to the storeroom.

 

 

Technically, Siuan could have possible justified lying about not being a Darkfriend and Black Ajah. All oaths were made null when she was stilled, and women who are stilled aren't considered Aes Sedai or members of an Ajah. They had to be re-accepted. Siuan could have justified her statement of "I am not Black Ajah" considering the fact that her oaths would have been removed, and she was no longer Black Ajah as she hadn't been formally resworn to the Great Lord.

 

The same goes for Leane.

 

And, since Sheriam was still Keeper and not denounced until later, it would have been reasonable for Sheriam to request Siuan give the sa'angreal into her keeping. Although this is unlikely, since she would have almost certainly used it when she tried to escape from the Hall when she was accused if she had it.

 

I think these are all insanely unlikely, but since I've seen a fair number of threads and conspiracies obsessing over what happened to Rand's fat man angreal, I think its fair to mention that we actually have no confirmation of what happened to the most powerful sa'angreal the White Tower possesses.

[coteaz]

Egwene mentions to siuan that to many people know of the angreal room, so they move it elsewhere where only a few people will know. Secondly siuan was warned that Sheriam was BA so she wouldn't have given her the sa'angreal.

[elec1cele]

Technically, Siuan could have possible justified lying about not being a Darkfriend and Black Ajah. All oaths were made null when she was stilled, and women who are stilled aren't considered Aes Sedai or members of an Ajah. They had to be re-accepted. Siuan could have justified her statement of "I am not Black Ajah" considering the fact that her oaths would have been removed, and she was no longer Black Ajah as she hadn't been formally resworn to the Great Lord.

 

I don't see anyway Siuan could possibly be a Darkfriend.  We have many many chapters from her POV and no mention of it.  We have chapters from her POV where she is thinking and explaining her views on oaths. She feels strongly that maintaining her oath to Bryne is important because she swore the strongest oath of the light possible.  It just doesn't fit.

[Muad Cheade]

Both the rebels and loyalists had their own Sitters and Ajah heads, I wonder how they will reunite each Ajah...

[ajfurst]

Both the rebels and loyalists had their own Sitters and Ajah heads, I wonder how they will reunite each Ajah...

It depends if they go best person or they are still largely two camps. If they are two camps then other then the red and blue the rebels would win the other Ajah head positions. The numbers when the rebels were at Salidar were considered each side had around 300 AS each.

 

Take out 9 rebels sworn to Rand versus around 20 captured by Rand, 50 by the Asha'man, twenty by the Seanchan and another 10 Tower ones killed and the numbers look like Rebels ~290 versus Tower ~200. If you assume equal numbers of blacks on each side (and really it's worse for the Tower as Alviarin made sure none of the 50 going to the Black Tower were Black Ajah) and it's going to be 3 - 2 numbers in favour of the rebels for most Ajah's. Like wise the Sitters would fall along the lines of 2 rebels and one loyalist for the non-red and blue sitters if they stayed as different camps.

 

Of course we'll have it that they all become buddy buddy and divvy them up on merit and Egwene super Amyrlin.

[TheAngryDruid]

Generally speaking, I thought Egwene was very good in this book, but she still has some ideological barriers to break down, namely:

 

1) Her attitude toward Rand. She has the information from Moiraine (in order to control it, you have to surrender to it), but still can't quite put it together. Though she does show signs of getting close.

 

2) Her attitude towards the Oaths. She was getting close in Salidar when she found out the age of Alivia and the Kin. And her effectiveness compared to the other AS during the battle should tell you something. Maybe the third oath should be replaced with a not-a-darkfriend oath?

 

Though I agree there is some validity to saying battling damane a Sister could fear for the life of the other sister, or herself, they are still woefully ineffective.

 

3) Get rid of precedence on the basis of strength in the power.

 

4) Find a new mission for the Reds. I like the idea of hunting Blacks, or fighting Seanchan, but I still think they'll be the Asha'man Ajah.

 

Tactically, Egwene needs to:

 

1) Deal with the Seanchan/captive damane (spread the word that sul'dam are marathe'damane.

2) Deal with the Black Tower (that's going to be hard).

3) Start cooperating better with Rand/Elayne/other nations (Borderlanders).

4) Train the Tower to effectively attack/defend in a coordinated manner.

5) Get Tar Valon back on its feet.

6) Better utilize the items of the power (and get Rand/Elayne to do so as well).

 

 

 

[DemandredFO]

I see Egwene taking the oaths as only helping the Shadow, she knew the To'Raken weren't shadowspawn and we've seen how sisters deal with human battles, Mat's AS had to let men die before they were in danger, Ebin died because of the oaths, none of Flinn's group were killed likely because he was in control and perhaps the only reason Rand is alive is because Elza, a darkfriend compelled, was in control of that circle.  At Dumai's Wells the AS had to be in the midst of the Shaido.

The Tower reuniting also helps the Shadow because just as Rand looks to be on the mend, the AS are whole and free to meddle in Rand's affairs in a more coordinated manner.

I am also interested to see how the next Nyneave, Egwene meeting goes.  I don't think, hopefully I'm right, that it'll go at all how Egwene wants.  Nyneave seems to be one of the closest to real Aes Sedai that I've seen.  It's in EotW, Egwene flinches after they learn Rand can channel but Nyneave doesn't, If I remember right.

[smileyman]

Generally speaking, I thought Egwene was very good in this book, but she still has some ideological barriers to break down, namely:

 

1) Her attitude toward Rand. She has the information from Moiraine (in order to control it, you have to surrender to it), but still can't quite put it together. Though she does show signs of getting close.

 

It's the attitude of society, conditioned by how many centuries of men going crazy? It's ingrained, and especially ingrained in an Aes Sedai, much less the Amrylin Seat. Yes, she will have to get over it, but it's not going to be easy for her.

2) Her attitude towards the Oaths. She was getting close in Salidar when she found out the age of Alivia and the Kin. And her effectiveness compared to the other AS during the battle should tell you something. Maybe the third oath should be replaced with a not-a-darkfriend oath?

The problem isn't Egwene's attitude towards the Oaths, it's society's attitude towards Aes Sedai. That also has to change before they can get rid of the oaths, though I do think a policy requiring a periodic reswearing of the oaths (especially one regarding being a Darkfriend) would be good. (Though how much use this will be after the Last Battle remains to be seen).

 

3) Get rid of precedence on the basis of strength in the power.

I agree. Nynaeve will help out greatly with this since she's already starting to feel this way and she's the strongest Aes Sedai in memory. The other prejudice against wilders will have to be dropped as well.

4) Find a new mission for the Reds. I like the idea of hunting Blacks, or fighting Seanchan, but I still think they'll be the Asha'man Ajah.

I like the idea of them hunting the BA, but I personally suspect that they'll just fade away. Their use as an Ajah has for all practical purposes been destroyed thanks to Rand. I suspect they'll get fewer and fewer recruits and then just fade into obscurity.

 

 

[DemandredFO]

Your point about the oaths and society is somewhat misguided, everyone Knows AS can't lie yet everyone also Knows that you need to sift AS words.  The oaths do much more harm than good.  Look at the WO's, pre-Dumai's Wells they never fought by a non-binder enforced custom and yet everyone trusted them.  People still do post Wells and the WO never had a binder.

[Ted M]

2) Her attitude towards the Oaths. She was getting close in Salidar when she found out the age of Alivia and the Kin. And her effectiveness compared to the other AS during the battle should tell you something. Maybe the third oath should be replaced with a not-a-darkfriend oath?

The problem isn't Egwene's attitude towards the Oaths, it's society's attitude towards Aes Sedai. That also has to change before they can get rid of the oaths, though I do think a policy requiring a periodic reswearing of the oaths (especially one regarding being a Darkfriend) would be good. (Though how much use this will be after the Last Battle remains to be seen).

 

Where does the public's attitude toward Aes Sedai come from though?  An oath to "speak no word that is not true" is utterly meaningless when you've spent three thousand years demonstrating that you'll do everything you can to deceive people and manipulate them as much as you can by selectively doling out information, and phrasing things in ways that you know will be interpreted in a way that will provide a false impression.  The first oath, as taken, and as the Aes Sedai use it, is virtually useless.  Unless the Aes Sedai truly intend to become the servants of all and give up trying to manipulate people into doing what they want, people will not trust them for the simple reason that first oath or not, they aren't trustworthy.  A lie of omission or implication is still a lie even though the Aes Sedai don't seem to think so, and the Aes Sedai, despite the first oath, lie more than any other group in this series.  Unless that changes, why should society's attitude change?