White Tower Reunification Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[SuperFade]

^I also hope this is adressed, it seems like the sort of thing that could cause huge problems down the line.

[Paerish Swar]

I would dare say that it doesn't matter much anymore.

 

Look, Elaida usurped Siuan's place in a sham meeting of the bare minimum of the Hall, which was lead in part by the Black Ajah (Alviarin and at least one Sitter being Black, while all three of the Red Sitters must have been at least somewhat influenced by Galina who was head of the Red and Black herself).  The result of which was the stilling and imprisonment of Siuan.  I don't think that any Aes Sedai at this point would try to assert that Elaida's place as Amyrlin was ever legitimate.

 

Siuan's lie about Logain and the Reds is definitely not kosher whether or not Egwene knew anything about it, and I'm sure that Siuan would personally take a lot of heat for it from many sisters if they ever found out.  But, really, I think even an Aes Sedai can understand the anger that Siuan was feeling against Elaida, and that a grave injustice was inflicted upon her.

 

Egwene's situation is completely separate from the two previous Amyrlins.  She was able to bind the rebels together and guide them pretty much by her strengths and merits alone.  She was able to bind the tower loyalists together absolutely by her strengths and merits alone.  She was able to lead a successful, though limited, purge of the Black Ajah, a blight that had existed unfettered in the White Tower for 3000 years.

 

With Tarmon Gaidon fast approaching I think that even the stubborn Aes Sedai must realize that some things will have to be left in the past as they strive for a common goal.  Egwene has given them that goal and that focus.  She has unified the Tower more completely than it probably has been since the Trolloc Wars.

 

The rebels didn't become rebels because of Suian's lie about Logain and the Reds, but they did stay rebels because of the lie.  Without that lie, though, the rebel Hall wouldn't have stuck to their guns or raised Egwene as their Amyrlin.  If she had never become the rebel Amrylin, she never would have been in the position to save the White Tower.  Without Siuan's lie the White Tower would still be divided with the Black Ajah pulling all the strings.

 

In any case, Egwene has now proven herself to be the true Amyrlin (with or without that particular lie), and every sister knows that she is the right woman for the job.

 

So, in my opinion. . .it doesn't really matter.

 

 

*(Although, if Egwene did know about the lie and women in the Tower found out about it, it would probably make it near impossible for the Red Ajah to ever trust her.  I'm pretty sure, though, that Egwene never asked Siuan if the Logain/Red Ajah story were true, and Siuan never volunteered the info - it's not exactly in Siuan's nature to volunteer sensitive information, especially if said info could damage her own cause.  Since I'm fairly certain the only people who know the truth about this little matter are Siuan, Leane, and Logain - and maybe Min? - let's just hope that nobody spills the beans any time soon.  We don't want to lose the Red Ajah. . .do we?)

[SuperFade]

^Those are good points, but Aes Sedai throughout the series have always taken a very dim view of rule breaking, even if it was for a good reason. I find it hard to imagine that they'd just let something like that go if it ever came out, even if it did indirectly lead to Egwene's victory. I think Siuan at least would take a lot of flak if her lie was exposed, although she'd probably find a way to worm out of it.

[Durinax]

all she would have to do is prove that she believed it, Egwene would have no trouble since she actually deep down believed it and as thus broke no oath, or law. Suian just has to find a way to prove she believed it too

[althoritis]

First, Aes Sedai manipulate but do not like manipulated. If they come to know that their whole war with Elaida was based on a lie, I doubt they would take it lightly. Second, Egwene gave the pep talk at the time of Tower's unification and accepted that it was a shame for everyone that it broke (which is so weirdly contracdictory, I mean, she would have made the war if Tower AS hadn't offered her Amyrlin Seat!). So she accepts the responsibility to the divide in the Tower even though it wasn't her doing. She accepted it because she was a leader and understood that failure IS leader's responsibility. So it seems somewhat contradictory to let that lie go because it doesn't matter anymore.

 

The only saving grace from this would be that lie isn't lie but actually truth. Which makes me wonder if Siuan did have some clues about Red Ajah setting up Logain..

 

But as things stand now, I would like it if BS give this matter some though.

[StefanR]

^Those are good points, but Aes Sedai throughout the series have always taken a very dim view of rule breaking, even if it was for a good reason. I find it hard to imagine that they'd just let something like that go if it ever came out, even if it did indirectly lead to Egwene's victory. I think Siuan at least would take a lot of flak if her lie was exposed, although she'd probably find a way to worm out of it.

 

Those that knew diidn't seem so concerned when they found out Alanna bonded Rand. As long as it served their own ends

[thewalrus777]

^Those are good points, but Aes Sedai throughout the series have always taken a very dim view of rule breaking, even if it was for a good reason. I find it hard to imagine that they'd just let something like that go if it ever came out, even if it did indirectly lead to Egwene's victory. I think Siuan at least would take a lot of flak if her lie was exposed, although she'd probably find a way to worm out of it.

 

Those that knew diidn't seem so concerned when they found out Alanna bonded Rand. As long as it served their own ends

 

Also true. However, I guarantee the Aes Sedai that know what Alanna did, still look down on it in a very negative way. Even if it suited their own ends. Remember, they compared forced bonding to that of rape.

[Sharaman]

Suian wasn't AS, when she spread the logain rumour. She was just an ex-channeler.

Don't think she can be touched by Tower law due to that technicality.

Random non-channelers spread all sorts of stories about AS, it's ignored so long as they don't pretend to be AS. Suian didn;t spread tales after being healed.

 

[Rands left hand]

you'd think the red ajah atleast would be very interested in figuring out who started the stories about Logain, seeing as how the rebel AS believe it to be true. However, with TG looming whether or not this is a big enough issue to be dealt with is debatable

[althoritis]

you'd think the red ajah atleast would be very interested in figuring out who started the stories about Logain, seeing as how the rebel AS believe it to be true. However, with TG looming whether or not this is a big enough issue to be dealt with is debatable

 

Exactly! My point is a war BETWEEN Aes Sedai started from this lie and I would expect it to be significant thing. But yes, I do agree that with Tar'mon Gai'don looming, it may be a secondary issue.

[thewalrus777]

you'd think the red ajah atleast would be very interested in figuring out who started the stories about Logain, seeing as how the rebel AS believe it to be true. However, with TG looming whether or not this is a big enough issue to be dealt with is debatable

 

Exactly! My point is a war BETWEEN Aes Sedai started from this lie and I would expect it to be significant thing. But yes, I do agree that with Tar'mon Gai'don looming, it may be a secondary issue.

 

The war between the different factions of Aes Sedai is a direct result of Elaida deposing Siuan Sanche as Amyrlin in the very suspicious way she did. Siuan did not have a trial or anything to defend herself from gettin deposed or stilled. The rumor of the Red's actions in regard's to Logain only fueled the fire. Another, huge reason for the war, is Elaida's disbanding of an entire ajah without proper cause. The Logain rumor was NOT the direct cause of the war.

[althoritis]

you'd think the red ajah atleast would be very interested in figuring out who started the stories about Logain, seeing as how the rebel AS believe it to be true. However, with TG looming whether or not this is a big enough issue to be dealt with is debatable

 

Exactly! My point is a war BETWEEN Aes Sedai started from this lie and I would expect it to be significant thing. But yes, I do agree that with Tar'mon Gai'don looming, it may be a secondary issue.

 

The war between the different factions of Aes Sedai is a direct result of Elaida deposing Siuan Sanche as Amyrlin in the very suspicious way she did. Siuan did not have a trial or anything to defend herself from gettin deposed or stilled. The rumor of the Red's actions in regard's to Logain only fueled the fire. Another, huge reason for the war, is Elaida's disbanding of an entire ajah without proper cause. The Logain rumor was NOT the direct cause of the war.

 

No. The DIVISION of the WT - the split is direct result of Elaida's barely legal deposing of Siuan. All that rebel AS were doing before Siuan reached Salidar was planning to STAY. Siuan was the one who told them Logain's story and THEN they decided that Elaida should not be allowed to be Amyrlin Seat. They weren't even thinking of building an army until then.

[Sharaman]

In all the confusion and relief that the Tower has reunited, and the new Amyrlin isn't going to outlaw the Reds, it's unlikely that Logain-related rumours will make a difference. Anyhow, unless they interrogate Logain and that's unlikely, how on Earth do they trace stuff back to Suian and Leane? It'll be just another rumour that floated around.

Right now, the WT has more important stuff on the agenda anyhow.

 

[Impressive Bosom]

Yes, it was Elaida's great failing, and likely would have led to her removal as Amyrlin, that she blindly disregarded Egwene's warning of the event to the full extent of not even planning for any kind of assault against the White Tower. This is incredibly stupid because there is a rebel invasion force, not to mention a Black Tower that she has cause to believe is pissed off with her that may invade, never mind the Seanchan.

 

Of course, most of the Sisters at the Tower were aware of Egwene's warning and didn't lay wards or anything to help themselves either.

 

The damane are trained for battle. We don't get a great look at Seanchan but there is plenty of evidence that feuding between nobles and outright war at the deaths of their imperial monarchs is common. Only Aes Sedai spending a significant amount of time in the borderlands would have any training or battle conditioning to the same degree.

 

I can blame the sisters for their lack of preparation but not their performance against the battle hardened Seanchan.

 

and it's the sisters fault for leaving Elaida in so long.  Mazrim Taim is working for the shadow and he has done less damage, and more work for the light.  If the Aes Sedai are so incompetent that they can't handle a little raid what makes you think they can handle Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Robert Jordan spent way to much time hyping up Egwene to the detriment of the entire Tower.  Theirs no real equivalent to Talmanes, or Logain, and that's a real problem.

 

But there is. Cadsuane and Verin for example. Or Suain. Or Moiraine even. They just aren't/haven't been IN the Tower or under Egwene's supervision.

[Demiandre]

To prepare for Tarmon Gaidon, Aes Sedai will have to spend some time with damanes and learn some nasty weaves... If they can put stupidity apart just for the Last Battle and work with them....

 

When pigs woumd fly, I suppose...

 

Would the Oaths make it impossible for Aes Sedai to learn OP-as-weapon weaves, btw?

[Durinax]

To prepare for Tarmon Gaidon, Aes Sedai will have to spend some time with damanes and learn some nasty weaves... If they can put stupidity apart just for the Last Battle and work with them....

 

When pigs woumd fly, I suppose...

 

Would the Oaths make it impossible for Aes Sedai to learn OP-as-weapon weaves, btw?

they can learn it, but they cant use it against humans unless they are in imminant danger, as in her life is about to be taken.

[Sharaman]

To prepare for Tarmon Gaidon, Aes Sedai will have to spend some time with damanes and learn some nasty weaves... If they can put stupidity apart just for the Last Battle and work with them....

 

When pigs woumd fly, I suppose...

 

Would the Oaths make it impossible for Aes Sedai to learn OP-as-weapon weaves, btw?

they can learn it, but they cant use it against humans unless they are in imminant danger, as in her life is about to be taken.

Or they think the human is a DarkFriend.

In which case, there's no problem, using OP to kill.

[Durinax]

To prepare for Tarmon Gaidon, Aes Sedai will have to spend some time with damanes and learn some nasty weaves... If they can put stupidity apart just for the Last Battle and work with them....

 

When pigs woumd fly, I suppose...

 

Would the Oaths make it impossible for Aes Sedai to learn OP-as-weapon weaves, btw?

they can learn it, but they cant use it against humans unless they are in imminant danger, as in her life is about to be taken.

Or they think the human is a DarkFriend.

In which case, there's no problem, using OP to kill.

so beware the paranoid AS. On the other hand those with personal oaths to Egwene, do you think the BA may reveal this in order to split and cause internal damage to the tower once again? and as for sayign that if they where that they would have revealed it by now, I think the shock of the sudden round up and mass execution would have made them think of other thigns