Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

White Tower Reunification Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)


JenniferL
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 367
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Adelorna does feel the large amount of saidar wielded by Egwene when she shows up. I imagine the others do not notice because with people channeling all over the tower and fighting for their lives, picking out a single large source may be a challenge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, remember that even as much as she's channeling, she's not waving around a Choedan Kal access key -- her "base" ability is almost negligible, it's just amplified to an extreme degree by the sa'angreal and the circle she's in (which is mostly novices, to boot; and we don't have a "power rating" on the white rod, unless it's somewhere in the RPG statistics). So maybe the amount she's channeling really isn't that extreme -- no more than, say, an ordinary circle of 13 full Aes Sedai might put out. It's hard to say.

 

A question: is it established anywhere that sa'angreals can make you so powerful that even a circle of thirteen can't shield you, or is a circle of 13 an always-off button? I ask because if there is a cutoff point where you can no longer be shielded, Egwene at least thinks she is below it, since she thinks she doesn't have to worry since the Seanchan cannot use circles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this book was supposed to be more about rand's fractured persona, and his descent into deppression, but IMO egwene stole the show.  My fave scene of the book was egwene serving the elaida and the sitters, and giving elaida an absolute word pimp slap, from then on she just kept getting increasingly badass, culminating in her acting as a coduit for an insane amount of power, and turning the tide of the seanchan battle alone.

 

I think she, like elayne after KoD, has pretty much tied up her plotlines for this story, for the next book I see her finding rand on the base of dragonmount, taking him in, giving him a piece of her wrath, then returning him to cads and nyanaeve when they come alooking.  After tat it's a matter of integrating Bryne's army with the tower guards, (which would be a force of approx 100k), and peparing to march for the blight.  My personal belief is that she takes her army and the majority of her channelers to Tarwin's Gap, giving the light the two pronged attack Rand wants, whilst not abondoning Lan to death in the gap, (plus it would be nice for Lan to have the aes sedai finally come and help him defend malkier, i'm sure he still resents their failure at malkier's fault).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Community Administrator

Also, remember that even as much as she's channeling, she's not waving around a Choedan Kal access key -- her "base" ability is almost negligible, it's just amplified to an extreme degree by the sa'angreal and the circle she's in (which is mostly novices, to boot; and we don't have a "power rating" on the white rod, unless it's somewhere in the RPG statistics). So maybe the amount she's channeling really isn't that extreme -- no more than, say, an ordinary circle of 13 full Aes Sedai might put out. It's hard to say.

 

A question: is it established anywhere that sa'angreals can make you so powerful that even a circle of thirteen can't shield you, or is a circle of 13 an always-off button? I ask because if there is a cutoff point where you can no longer be shielded, Egwene at least thinks she is below it, since she thinks she doesn't have to worry since the Seanchan cannot use circles.

 

I think egwene said that, outside of the circle, just with the sa'angreal, just barely able to channel enough to even knock a can off a table, it brought her to the level she was able to channel Normally.

 

We have no idea how strong those other channelers were, in that circle... But even if they were all 5% of her normal self,  that still puts that sa'angreal as pretty damned good. ;)

 

No where near the access keys, or callandor, but probably enough to do some real damage if need be.

 

Also, theres that lady who shieled nyneave who was very very weak.

Shielding doesn't need brute force, but also flexibility.

She's shows that power isn't 'everything'. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Community Administrator

I think this book was supposed to be more about rand's fractured persona, and his descent into deppression, but IMO egwene stole the show.  My fave scene of the book was egwene serving the elaida and the sitters, and giving elaida an absolute word pimp slap, from then on she just kept getting increasingly badass, culminating in her acting as a coduit for an insane amount of power, and turning the tide of the seanchan battle alone.

 

I think she, like elayne after KoD, has pretty much tied up her plotlines for this story, for the next book I see her finding rand on the base of dragonmount, taking him in, giving him a piece of her wrath, then returning him to cads and nyanaeve when they come alooking.  After tat it's a matter of integrating Bryne's army with the tower guards, (which would be a force of approx 100k), and peparing to march for the blight.  My personal belief is that she takes her army and the majority of her channelers to Tarwin's Gap, giving the light the two pronged attack Rand wants, whilst not abondoning Lan to death in the gap, (plus it would be nice for Lan to have the aes sedai finally come and help him defend malkier, i'm sure he still resents their failure at malkier's fault).

 

I believe Egwene is Ta'varen after this book, not nearly anywhere as powerful as rand/mat/perrin, but some of the events almost 'require' one to be around...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re 13 & shielding:

 

I think that's a particular weakness of male channeling and so wouldn't have any relation to whether Egwene at full force could be shielded by a large enough circle.  I think woman vs woman it would be a straight comparison of power & skill to determine who would win.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Egwene still gets on my nerves.

 

In her own way, she's being as wrong-headed as Rand has been.

 

That's why she was someone I hated until LOC.

 

Her undeniable competence as Amyrlin has made me revise that opinion, at least with respect to the ability of her chapters to be very interesting.

 

However, she's going to be the most ruthless, dictatorial Amyrlin in history. Elaida being a dictator wasn't the issue, the issue was that she was a very unintelligent lunatic.

 

That's why Egwene got her moment as the Apotheosis of the Green Ajah in this book, along with her Apotheosis of the Brown (putting Verin's notes to great use), the White (her extremely sharp logical reasoning throughout the book ending with...) and the Yellow (by healing the Tower).

 

However, her true nature has always been Purple - namely, Blue and Red (c'mon, she basically admits that it is absolutely her duty to be der Fuehrer of all Channelers and that Rand needs to be controlled and his damage mitigated; her problem, again, is that Elaida does this in the worst possible way).

 

I don't think she's ever going to be the Apotheosis of the Gray, because, honestly, her style of diplomacy will not work with Tuon (die Sul'dam scum!) or Rand (you stupid woolheaded sheepherder!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

However, her true nature has always been Purple - namely, Blue and Red (c'mon, she basically admits that it is absolutely her duty to be der Fuehrer of all Channelers and that Rand needs to be controlled and his damage mitigated; her problem, again, is that Elaida does this in the worst possible way).

 

I don't think she's ever going to be the Apotheosis of the Gray, because, honestly, her style of diplomacy will not work with Tuon (die Sul'dam scum!) or Rand (you stupid woolheaded sheepherder!)

 

I don't think she's going to be as bad with Rand as she was previously.  First off, he was crazy enough that he needed reigning in. Even sane, he still needs guidance because being the Dragon Reborn and Savior of the Universe does not make him the best people person, strategist or in any way omniscient.  Second, Egwene gained some understanding of how he's been treated and, hopefully, will be more open with him in the future.  I think Rand would have been far more willing to listen to her & others if they'd just been upfront.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First time we see the sa'angreal used, Nynaeve makes a commment that she could herself wield almost half of what a circle with ten Aes Sedai and that sa'angreal could. And that should be before she has reached her full potential. So while it is the strongest sa'angreal the WT has, it is not superstrong.

 

Egwene being as weakened as she is, it is possible that she could not channel much more than a full circle could. Of course, she is in a place where there should not be enough sisters to form a full circle, but...

 

And about the novices, I got the impression that Egwene let go of the circle once she got the sa'angreal, as she did not really need their help anymore. She needed them to Travel to the storeage room, after that it would have made sense to let the novices form circles among them and help out that way. Which we see them do.

 

Egwene still gets on my nerves.

 

In her own way, she's being as wrong-headed as Rand has been.

 

Exactly, "The Dragon can't go on without guidance."

 

Too bad that I don't want you to guide him, Egwene.

 

Thing is, Egwene is absolutely right, Rand desperatly needs guidance. Egwene did however speak out of a bit of ignorance, as she did not know about Cadsuane taking that role, until Darth Rand screwed that up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a feeling that Rand will go back to Cadsuane and beg for forgiveness while flagellating himself with a rubber chicken in front of the assembled nobility of the entire Westlands and all the Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs before *ever* allowing himself to be guided by the Oooh! Girl to end all Oooh! Girls.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this book was supposed to be more about rand's fractured persona, and his descent into deppression, but IMO egwene stole the show.  My fave scene of the book was egwene serving the elaida and the sitters, and giving elaida an absolute word pimp slap, from then on she just kept getting increasingly badass, culminating in her acting as a coduit for an insane amount of power, and turning the tide of the seanchan battle alone.

 

I think she, like elayne after KoD, has pretty much tied up her plotlines for this story, for the next book I see her finding rand on the base of dragonmount, taking him in, giving him a piece of her wrath, then returning him to cads and nyanaeve when they come alooking.  After tat it's a matter of integrating Bryne's army with the tower guards, (which would be a force of approx 100k), and peparing to march for the blight.  My personal belief is that she takes her army and the majority of her channelers to Tarwin's Gap, giving the light the two pronged attack Rand wants, whilst not abondoning Lan to death in the gap, (plus it would be nice for Lan to have the aes sedai finally come and help him defend malkier, i'm sure he still resents their failure at malkier's fault).

 

I believe Egwene is Ta'varen after this book, not nearly anywhere as powerful as rand/mat/perrin, but some of the events almost 'require' one to be around...

 

I don't have the quote, but i remember RJ saying something about people who aren't necessarily Ta'varen, but still the pattern bends around them, (though not to the extent of a ta'varen).  This whole series has been about the 3 ta'varen from the two rivers, i think it would be a bit too fanficky for egwene to suddenly be revealed as another Ta'varen.  She's definately the most important thread in the pattern outside of Rand, Perrin, and Mat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Community Administrator

First time we see the sa'angreal used, Nynaeve makes a commment that she could herself wield almost half of what a circle with ten Aes Sedai and that sa'angreal could. And that should be before she has reached her full potential. So while it is the strongest sa'angreal the WT has, it is not superstrong.

 

Egwene being as weakened as she is, it is possible that she could not channel much more than a full circle could. Of course, she is in a place where there should not be enough sisters to form a full circle, but...

 

And about the novices, I got the impression that Egwene let go of the circle once she got the sa'angreal, as she did not really need their help anymore. She needed them to Travel to the storeage room, after that it would have made sense to let the novices form circles among them and help out that way. Which we see them do.

 

From my understanding, she put them in the storage room, so They'd be safe, while she USED Them in the circle to take care of the seanchan.

She pretty much stated bluntly that without a circle, and with that sa'angral she was just barely as powerful as she used to be. She mentioned she had the people in 'her' circle hide in a room, as not to put them in danger.

 

I don't have the quote, but i remember RJ saying something about people who aren't necessarily Ta'varen, but still the pattern bends around them, (though not to the extent of a ta'varen).  This whole series has been about the 3 ta'varen from the two rivers, i think it would be a bit too fanficky for egwene to suddenly be revealed as another Ta'varen.  She's definately the most important thread in the pattern outside of Rand, Perrin, and Mat.

 

Thats the same thing as a ta'varen though, its a plot device.

Just look at how easilly people just 'fell into' her command. I don't care how good a leader she is, it almost seemed to happen 'to' easilly.

That or she REALLY is that good. <_<

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Thats the same thing as a ta'varen though, its a plot device.

Just look at how easilly people just 'fell into' her command. I don't care how good a leader she is, it almost seemed to happen 'to' easilly.

That or she REALLY is that good. <_<

 

It's not that surprising.  The novices had already decided she really was the Amyrlin.  She'd been demonstrating her competence to everyone while she was a prisoner. AFAIK, she only ran into 1 sister during the attack.  It's not surprising that she was able to tell her to back off.  Egwene already led a circle and had a sa'angreal.  What could that sister do to stop her?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First time we see the sa'angreal used, Nynaeve makes a commment that she could herself wield almost half of what a circle with ten Aes Sedai and that sa'angreal could. And that should be before she has reached her full potential. So while it is the strongest sa'angreal the WT has, it is not superstrong.

 

Egwene being as weakened as she is, it is possible that she could not channel much more than a full circle could. Of course, she is in a place where there should not be enough sisters to form a full circle, but...

 

And about the novices, I got the impression that Egwene let go of the circle once she got the sa'angreal, as she did not really need their help anymore. She needed them to Travel to the storeage room, after that it would have made sense to let the novices form circles among them and help out that way. Which we see them do.

 

From my understanding, she put them in the storage room, so They'd be safe, while she USED Them in the circle to take care of the seanchan.

She pretty much stated bluntly that without a circle, and with that sa'angral she was just barely as powerful as she used to be. She mentioned she had the people in 'her' circle hide in a room, as not to put them in danger.

 

When we see EWgwene go into valkyrie-mode, she forbids the novices to attack the Seanchan, and she also tells Adelorna she will have a novice show her how to remove the a'dam. That would not be possible if the novices had been in a circle with her, as only the one leading the circle can channel anything at all.

 

 

 

I don't have the quote, but i remember RJ saying something about people who aren't necessarily Ta'varen, but still the pattern bends around them, (though not to the extent of a ta'varen).  This whole series has been about the 3 ta'varen from the two rivers, i think it would be a bit too fanficky for egwene to suddenly be revealed as another Ta'varen.  She's definately the most important thread in the pattern outside of Rand, Perrin, and Mat.

 

I have never seen RJ say anything like that. He has however said that none of the main female characters are ta'veren, which rules out Egwene.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Community Administrator

First time we see the sa'angreal used, Nynaeve makes a commment that she could herself wield almost half of what a circle with ten Aes Sedai and that sa'angreal could. And that should be before she has reached her full potential. So while it is the strongest sa'angreal the WT has, it is not superstrong.

 

Egwene being as weakened as she is, it is possible that she could not channel much more than a full circle could. Of course, she is in a place where there should not be enough sisters to form a full circle, but...

 

And about the novices, I got the impression that Egwene let go of the circle once she got the sa'angreal, as she did not really need their help anymore. She needed them to Travel to the storeage room, after that it would have made sense to let the novices form circles among them and help out that way. Which we see them do.

 

From my understanding, she put them in the storage room, so They'd be safe, while she USED Them in the circle to take care of the seanchan.

She pretty much stated bluntly that without a circle, and with that sa'angral she was just barely as powerful as she used to be. She mentioned she had the people in 'her' circle hide in a room, as not to put them in danger.

 

When we see EWgwene go into valkyrie-mode, she forbids the novices to attack the Seanchan, and she also tells Adelorna she will have a novice show her how to remove the a'dam. That would not be possible if the novices had been in a circle with her, as only the one leading the circle can channel anything at all.

 

There was more than one group of novices.

One group guarding the stairs, another probably the other set of stairs... probably a few more groups behind egwene, and the group linked to Egwene, whom she said were 'hiding' in a room somewhere.

 

I have never seen RJ say anything like that. He has however said that none of the main female characters are ta'veren, which rules out Egwene.

Are = past tense, doesn't rule out the possibility of one 'becoming' ta'varen at least for a short while. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Community Administrator

 

 

 

 

I don't have the quote, but i remember RJ saying something about people who aren't necessarily Ta'varen, but still the pattern bends around them, (though not to the extent of a ta'varen).  This whole series has been about the 3 ta'varen from the two rivers, i think it would be a bit too fanficky for egwene to suddenly be revealed as another Ta'varen.  She's definately the most important thread in the pattern outside of Rand, Perrin, and Mat.

 

I have never seen RJ say anything like that. He has however said that none of the main female characters are ta'veren, which rules out Egwene.

 

Rand needs Egwene to be Amyrlin, so the Pattern has made it happen for him. Its an effect of Rand's ta'vareness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When we see EWgwene go into valkyrie-mode, she forbids the novices to attack the Seanchan, and she also tells Adelorna she will have a novice show her how to remove the a'dam. That would not be possible if the novices had been in a circle with her, as only the one leading the circle can channel anything at all.

 

There were more than 13 novices around her, and she also may have been forbidding the novices from attacking physically. It's made clear that many of them were in a circle with her, but it would've been impossible for all of them to be.

 

AS to her "power level," the circle of three strong novices brings her up to "almost as much as she was accustomed to without forkroot," and the sa'angreal kicks her up from that point.

 

As to Nynaeve's quote re: the strength of Vorna's rod, I'm still not clear it establishes Nyn is *that* strong -- the exact quote is, I believe, "I don't think I could hold half that much," which is not the same thing as saying "I could hold half that much" nor as saying "I don't think I could hold half that much without burning out."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...