Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Jaelk]

And now for something completely different….

 

I haven’t read these theories /interpretations in this thread but, since I skipped from about page 20 it may be in the interim I apologise if they has been postulated previously.

 

This is more a summary of ideas, as I still don’t think I have quite enough information to “Prove” my theories but it you’d just humour me.

 

J

 

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I believe that Mr Jordan picked the Yin and Yang symbol for the series for a number of reasons.

 

I think that, in the story of Rand we’re only really seeing half of the story.

 

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I agree with the interpretation that Rand walks around as a blind man before seeing the truth of what is.

 

However I disagree that Rand somehow isn’t whole after the incident on Dragonmount.

 

Min sees it and there is an extensive identification of the three facets of “Rand’s” personality which are recombined

 

§ The ghost of Rand Past  - Lews Therin Telamon

§ The ghost of Rand present – Son of Tam who refuses to hurt women

§ The ghost of Rand future – Dark (Cuendillar) Rand - the indistinct figure that is manifest as what Rand “could/would” become if he continued on the dark path.

 

I believe that the incident on Dragonmount reforged these three fragments back into the one true avatar of light.

 

The CK has frequently been referred to as a “weapon” and more then enough fits the part in the prophecy.

 

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Do we ever read, anywhere that Rand channels the True Power? We see that Semirhage see’s Rand breaking free of the Domination Band and “Occam’s Razor” pending that he MUST be using the True Power (what else could it be from her perspective?) but there is never anything related to the use of the power, No “smoking gun”.  The dark halo is manifest more so by the actions of Dark Rand then by the use of the “alien power”.

 

So what if, it wasn’t the “True Power” as previously described at all but rather, access to the same source through the agency of the Creator? From a balance perspective it’s possible and more probable.  That would fit with every statement made AND be consistent with the story so far.

 

In his hour of greatest need the Creator saves the Avatar of Light.

 

Of course you may well then quote LTT’s words about it being “Him” and Betrayal… but really, when did the DO actually betray LTT?

 

I suspect that LTT was referring to someone else.  His own version of the “Ghost of Rand Future” who he didn’t reconcile with that lead to his Saidin fuelled attempt to seal the bore and the resulting counterstroke that, caused the “Death and Betrayal” that he spoke of as he went mad and became the Kin slayer.

 

Not at the hands of the Dark One, but in his mind at least at the hands of the Creator (Or the future aspect of his avatar).

 

The future is malleable but all the aspects of the Creator’s avatar seem to be present in some shape or form, even if only as indistinct images.

 

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Rand only stepped into Mordin’s dreams when he was Dark Rand; an aspect of the full avatar of the creator… isn’t that the same thing that Moridin did previously?  If you re-read the scene with the names reversed does it sound all that different to the scenes where Ba’alzamon confronts Rand and the others earlier in the series?

 

I believe that Moridin’s comments are almost the mirror of Rand’s “self doubts” when confronted in his dreams.

 

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I believe that the solution to sealing the Dark one’s prison has been “hidden in plain sight” for quite some time now.  Given LTT’s description of how Saidin was corrupted and how Rand cleaned it.  In addition to the repeated descriptions of the constant war between the two wounds one from Ishmaels the other from Paidin Fain I think that something similar would cap the Bore while still allowing from an “Imperfect seal” to be bored into the next time that cycle of the wheel returns.

 

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I suspect that many of the “effects on the world” which have been attributed to the Dark One’s hand on the pattern have more to do with Rand’s mood swings then the Dark One escaping his prison. I am currently re-reading the series looking from clues.

 

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If Rand actually wanted to exterminate the Sanchean I suspect that having access to the CK and the “alien power” given that the CK itself was powerful enough to allow LTT to break the world by himself, he would have had little trouble extinguishing all life in every province held by them in the land, eliminating their fleets as well as considerably thinning out the population in their homeland across the sea.

 

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One final comment, I think that Cadsuane and her Cabal have probably pushed the world closer to the point of extinction then all of the efforts of the Forsaken, Dark Friends and the DO combined!

 

 

Sorry for the eclectic nature of the ideas but that is how they came out.

 

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Do we ever read, anywhere that Rand channels the True Power? We see that Semirhage see’s Rand breaking free of the Domination Band and “Occam’s Razor” pending that he MUST be using the True Power (what else could it be from her perspective?) but there is never anything related to the use of the power, No “smoking gun”.  The dark halo is manifest more so by the actions of Dark Rand then by the use of the “alien power”.

 

Well Semirhage stated that the DO had betrayed her...and BS answered many quesitons regarding the fact that TP can only be accessed if the DO has given permission..So it is pretty much obvious that Rand accessed the TP just like the fact that the sword he wears is Justice.

 

One final comment, I think that Cadsuane and her Cabal have probably pushed the world closer to the point of extinction then all of the efforts of the Forsaken, Dark Friends and the DO combined!

Couldn't agree with you more.They pushed him and pushed him until he snapped...I actually wanted him to snap when i was reading KoD.I thoroughly enjoyed the scene where rand banishes Cadsuane.

 

I suspect that many of the “effects on the world” which have been attributed to the Dark One’s hand on the pattern have more to do with Rand’s mood swings then the Dark One escaping his prison. I am currently re-reading the series looking from clues.

 

Yup the land is one with the Dragon reborn and vice-versa

[garion]

Hey does anybody think that Rand will try to make another Hall of Servants like in the AoL or how is he going to deal with Ashaman and AS connecting?

[lillcheese]

Hey does anybody think that Rand will try to make another Hall of Servants like in the AoL or how is he going to deal with Ashaman and AS connecting?

 

I don't think there'll be a unified Hall of Servants - the male/female animosity is too high right now.

 

I'm perhaps the only person who doesn't think the "WT bend knee to the forgotten sign" prophecy has been fulfilled.  I think it'll be fulfilled when a compromise is reached between Egwene & Rand.

 

 

[BlueMonkey al Thor]

OK, first post here on Dragonmount, so be gentle (not gentled!).  And I apologize if I am repeating something in the 60 prior pages in this thread.  When I read Min's viewing I anticipated it would be Rand, LTT, and Moridin somehow merging in Rand's head.  And then I read the mountaintop scene, and changed my mind.  I thought the "3 become 1" was Rand finally stripping himself of the baggage he has been carrying lately and his 3 women could now be his Ilyena, his one true love.  He'll be able to love his Ileyna again, just that they are 3 people.  

 

Now please, proceed to tear that apart.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I suspect that many of the “effects on the world” which have been attributed to the Dark One’s hand on the pattern have more to do with Rand’s mood swings then the Dark One escaping his prison. I am currently re-reading the series looking from clues.

 

Here's yet another way to look at that -

 

Some, but not all, of the things ascribed to the DO and bubbles of evil, may instead be the Wheel's doing in order to cause needed things to occur.

 

Hinderstap - Mat needed to be delayed until Verin could find him.

The morphing of the Novice Quarters in the WT to the 22nd floor where Egwene would have a much better field of fire during the attack.

The rearranging of the palace in Caemlyn.  At the time it started happening,  Hanlon was active.  The BA was active.  Both of whom had designs on Elayne.  Moving her quarters from where they had been to someplace else makes it more difficult for either group to find her and cause her harm.

 

There are probably many other examples.  Those three were just the first that came to mind.

[garion]

So then would the merger of WT and BT make and organization  called the Grey Tower? ;D

[ArchAngelus0fAll]

Ok, odd thread of thought, here. Ive read several other threads but please forgive me for not knowing what all has been written. Semirhage did confirm that Rand used TO, and so did LT. By all descriptions Rand have of the TO channeling, it matches up with EVERYTHING previously said about Moridin or any others using TO. Now here's this idea;

1.   Lews Therin said that he had to use saidin (and only saidin since the women <all of which should be slapped hard, very hard> wimped out against the decisive actions Lews Therin suggested against the Bore) to seal the Bore.

2.   There were no women with the 100 Companions, making a circle impossible. With the circle impossible, then only one man, maybe with a sa'angreal, was able to patch the Bore and the others created the seals.

3.   Because of this, saidin touched DO and tainted it (Confirmed by LT in Gathering Storm)

4.   Rand has been given the ability of TO

5.   Rand can use it to patch up or seal the Bore completely without risking another Time of Madness or Breaking (And since the CK is completely destroyed, male and female, it would be impossible to remove another taint anyway)

6.   In essesnce, DO may have given Rand the perfect ability to sealing him away again, which goes along with a theme of, "The Dark One's own greed to try and turn or destroy Rand's soul with the True Power, may be the thing that ends up destroying/locking him away."

 

Now i know that the TP wouldn't be able to destroy DO. It's like saying a jet of water from a lake can destroy that very lake. But Rand may be able to seal him up completely with help from it. This is all speculation, because this may be the first turning of the Wheel wear the Dark One could actually be destroyed, though I doubt it. The Creator couldnt destroy him simply because the Dark One is outside of creation itself, and no weapon of creation (most likely) should be able to destroy him...overcourse, if something else came from this place outside of creation, who knows what might happen.

[Muad Cheade]

You have very valid points, but Brandon Sanderson revealed that no one can access the True Power without the Dark One's consent, so I don't think that will happen as e wouldn't allow Rand to be in a position to wield it against him.

[Declan]

i agree to the above. the DO could simply cut him off from it at any point in time. If he knows exactly when a forsaken uses it near him and can destroy them instantly i don't think Rand has a better chance.

 

Callandor will come into it somehow. i am not biting on the theories that state that he will be the one to HAVE to wield it though.

 

I am more interested to see the interaction between Rand and Egwene. Then FINALLY get all three ta'vearen in the same room and start discussing what needs to happen. it has been WAY too long since they were all together. i want to say like 4 or 5 books...

[The Desert Pea]

Okay, regarding Rand and his new found discovery that he is, indeed, merely human:

 

Rand, and we as the readers, are finally drawn to the climax of Rand's steel plotline on the top of Dragonmount where he supposedly becomes "human" again; He realizes there's a reason to live life again and again as the Wheel turns. We are lead to believe that Rand has regained his humanity, but I think that he never lost it in the first place.

 

For the last half of the series we have seen Rand become darker and darker, sealing up all emotion in the belief that it was the only way he could make it through the Last Battle. From the POVs of everyone, we see Rand as a more than human figure. Some have said that because of this, Rand has had bad character development, that there was no way to really connect to him anymore.

 

However, I think we need to take a second and think about WHY Rand became the way he did. Rand hasn't had life easy: He's been forced into the role of the only hope for a world that despises him, he's young and relatively inexperienced, he's been kidnapped, stuffed into a box, and beaten, multiple never healing wounds, forced to use a power that drove him partially insane before it was cleansed, has to deal with nobles trying to manipulate him into their petty affairs while he's trying to save all of existence... You get the idea. And on top of all of that he believes the one person he trusted and needs the most, Moiraine, sacrificed herself to save him because he couldn't kill a women.

 

The way Rand changes, attempting to move inward and fade away from the rest of the world; these actions are what makes him human. He was never something more or less, even when he became Dark Rand for a good portion of TGS. He was human this entire time, he just needed to realize this before everyone else did, which FINALLY happens on top of Dragonmount in Veins of Gold.

 

Now maybe everyone else will realize that he's simply human also. Not even Cadsuane, who is the one trying to get Rand to realize he's still human, seems to completely understand that. After he proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn, only a few people seem to get that Rand is simply human, even if he is the most important one in the world: Moiraine, Lan, and Min.

[Lombard]

Noone else wondering about this?

 

"Why? Could it be ... Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance [...] Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live we get to love again. [...] If I live again, then she might as well!"

 

"To live, you must die"

 

Is that then "to live on and be reborn in another age, you must die" or not?

[AvroChris]

Noone else wondering about this?

 

"Why? Could it be ... Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance [...] Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live we get to love again. [...] If I live again, then she might as well!"

 

"To live, you must die"

 

Is that then "to live on and be reborn in another age, you must die" or not?

 

That thought occurred to me too, but it was in answer to the question "How do I win the last battle and survive?"

Also, we have numerous dreams and viewings (eg Logain stepping up onto the podium at the Black Tower over Rand's body, only Rand's body is a paper model) that imply that everyone will think Rand's dead, but he's actually not. So I think he'll find a way to live on in the next age, somehow.

[ShiftedInsights]

We have seen Mat die and live again, his killer was balefired and Mat was magically alive again, fulfilling a part of the fate the Finn's told him about.  We know that Rand needs to die to live again, but I don't recall if it explicitly states he has to die to beat the Dark One, as far as I recall, his blood needs to be spilled on the rocks of Shayol Gul.  Perhaps he takes a wound and bleeds on the black rocks, then someone else kills him, gets balefired, and Rand lives while his blood allows the creator to close the gap.  Just idle speculation. 

[ArchAngelus0fAll]

Now i really dont believe that Rand can use the power AGAINST DO, but DO gives people (Moridin, Rand) his blessing to use TP. He cant read minds with it, he cant know what Rand has use of it, but again, the way the books are, I doubt that the theme RJ or BS would wanna use is that only evil can seal or beat evil. Still, I have a feeling, now that Rand is more sane(at least to the extent of the most powerful human alive can be sane) will find a way to use that TP against DO's wishes and have it stripped away from him. And about Callandor, i am SOOOO happy for Rand to now have to rely on CAllandor's now unmatched power, because there is a brilliant theme i think RJ was trying to get across; CK gave Rand near limitless power, whereas Callandor has to have control and help. This makes Rand rely on people, trust people, and not have to always be in control. This theme of restraint and relying on friends, instead of use of absolute power is inspiring. Hopefully though, Rand, Perrin, and Mat can work together instead of two being ordered around by one.

[ArchAngelus0fAll]

just to add, Rand's sanity is going to be kept intact with the help mostly from Min, Aviendha, and Elayne....just a quick question....WHERE in the light-blasted hell was Elayne (and Loial for that matter) in this book? where the hell was Galad (who is going to be trouble later). THis was a huge book. even if it was three times this large like it was supposed to, would RJ really leave them out so easily?

[Bob T Dwarf]

just to add, Rand's sanity is going to be kept intact with the help mostly from Min, Aviendha, and Elayne....just a quick question....WHERE in the light-blasted hell was Elayne (and Loial for that matter) in this book? where the hell was Galad (who is going to be trouble later). THis was a huge book. even if it was three times this large like it was supposed to, would RJ really leave them out so easily?

 

There's a LOT to cover.  2000+ pages if the last two are anything like this one for size.  Rand and Egwene's storylines were lagging weeks behind the others.  They needed to be caught up.

 

We should see all of those characters once everybody's timelines are more in sync.

[mattdaddy]

I'll admit I haven't tried to read all 60 pages of this thread so forgive me if this has been covered. Has anyone discussed the possibility that the Dark One is planning to become Rand? By that I mean enter the world by possessing him type of thing. I know the books talk about him simply wanting to destroy the wheel and the pattern and everything all together but where is the fun in that? I see that as a reason he commands the forsaken not to harm rand, but to bring him to him intact. It would also explain why he lets him touch the true source, because he is trying to corrupt him, to make it easier. Also the Rand dying to live prophecy could be fulfilled by the dark one becoming rand, then getting balefired by a callendor wielding trio, and the resulting time lapse bringing Rand back as Matt was brought back to life.  What do you guys think? 

[ArchAngelus0fAll]

I'll admit I haven't tried to read all 60 pages of this thread so forgive me if this has been covered. Has anyone discussed the possibility that the Dark One is planning to become Rand? By that I mean enter the world by possessing him type of thing. I know the books talk about him simply wanting to destroy the wheel and the pattern and everything all together but where is the fun in that? I see that as a reason he commands the forsaken not to harm rand, but to bring him to him intact. It would also explain why he lets him touch the true source, because he is trying to corrupt him, to make it easier. Also the Rand dying to live prophecy could be fulfilled by the dark one becoming rand, then getting balefired by a callendor wielding trio, and the resulting time lapse bringing Rand back as Matt was brought back to life.  What do you guys think? 

 

He isnt just going to destroy it. It has been said several times that he wants to destroy it then remake it in his image, or to his desire's. If Rand will be possessed maybe that means he can kill himself (or alivia do it for him) so he can kill the DO. i dunno, but i think just to have the DO rule in a human body doesnt work.

[ArchAngelus0fAll]

 

 

There's a LOT to cover.  2000+ pages if the last two are anything like this one for size.  Rand and Egwene's storylines were lagging weeks behind the others.  They needed to be caught up.

 

We should see all of those characters once everybody's timelines are more in sync.

 

Good point. Never really saw it like that in the last books...sorry, Elayne, for the first time since the beginning of the series was doing something interesting instead of being annoying with Nynaeve, and i really have grown to like her so i was curious...and who doesnt miss that cuddly teddybear of a 10-foot tall ogier?

[Shard]

I think the whole TO live you must die, will be Rand faking his death.

 

I also feel that if people want to understand the Rand/Lews dynamic they should check out Avatar the Last Airbender. In it the main character is a from a long line of reincarnations. He can communicate with his past incarnations and even summon them up to talk to others. From these past selves he was able to get information about the past, etc. This story and that of WoT do seem heavily influenced by eastern philosophies.

[TheBeggar]

I don't know if this has been mentioned so please forgive me if it has. Were Rand's memories of his past lives a side effect of the taint? Or was it the taint that just made him skitzo about it? Because that might explain why Taim calls the Aiel the "so called" Aiel.Itwould be interesting it Taim just came to terms with his memories faster.

[greenman]

Has anyone suggested that Rand was trying to True Power-compel Tuon at their meeting? We don't know if he knows Compulsion or not, but he was embracing the True Power when she was having a hard time saying no.

[coteaz]

He wasn't using the TP, he was using his Ta'Verenness, the darkness was a side effect off using the TP.

[markerikson]

Hi, brand new here, but I was a regular on rasfwr-j, which is now a ruin.  tGS has given me a hankering for WOT discussion that I haven't felt for years, and this seems like the place to do it now.

 

Anyway, I wanted to throw this (possibly loony) theory out there, because I haven't actually seen it anywhere else.

 

I think Rand will die, whether before the Last Battle or during his confrontation with the DO, but his soul will be pulled from his body, and placed into Logain's.

 

There are a number of bits and pieces to support this.  For starters, Min has been viewing Rand dead and his three girlfriends mourning him since tEotW.  Second, we have the Aelfinn's answer of "to live you must die".  Third, we have Egwene's dream of Logain stepping over Rand's corpse, but Rand's corpse falls apart like leaves.

 

We also know that bodies can live on without their souls.  A drakgar can suck someone's soul from their body.  Machin Shin, also, can remove a person's soul.  In fact, RJ was once asked how Verin was able to Delve the soulless Ogier while in a stedding (in tGH) and RJ said that didn't Delve him, but there are certain things about a soulless body that people can spot without the Power, and that we would be learning a lot more about this over the next few books.  Which suggests that a soulless body or two will play some part in the future plot.

 

And finally, I strongly suspect that the Essanik Cycle prophecy at the end of tGS is a bit of clever misdirection.  It doesn't quite fit the events of "Veins of Gold".  I still think Rand will go properly blind and play the part of a beggar for a bit (if his brief walk through Ebou Dar was the fulfillment of that particular Viewing, I have to wonder why it was a Viewing at all), that he will die and his soul will be saved and placed in Logain's body (we know that the DO can do this, so it doesn't seem that big a step to think that the OP can possibly do this as well), probably with the aid of Alivia.  At this point, Rand will be able to see again, and he will weep over the grave of his original body.

 

Anyway, just wanted to get that one off my chest.  Sorry it was such a length first post.