Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Demon_AS]

What makes the Dragon so unique? Being Taveren isn't really that unique, being able to channel isn't either.  The Prophecies are just a commercial in a way, but what makes him unique?  What makes him the seperate piece on the board, the fisher.

 

Normally I used to think of the Fisher King myth, him being tied to the land, the land tied to him.  If the DO gained him, he'd gain the world.

 

But reading TGS I also started to ponder on the possibility that the dragon, the third party on the board, might just have the natural ability to use the TP, without consent from the DO.

Silly theory, but I'm posting it anyway, just to be able to say I called it when it comes through ;)

 

Of course, it was probably just the merging with Moridin that gave him the ability...

 

p.s.: really looking foreward to see how he'll be in the next book

Well, I guess the Dragon is an agent of Destiny. He's "Neo" to the Matrix, to give a more modern example. He's that element of change that ensures balance, and prevents the total domination by "evil" or "the dark side" or "tails" (think: coin).

 

I don't discount your theory on his access to the TP either. As I've said previously, we simply don't know enough about the TP to make any definite statements. Occam's Razor, though, leads us to conclude that it's his link to Moridin that allows him access. But that's only because that really is the only information we have.

[Alannin]

I hadn't thought about Rand reaching the TP had to do with a link to Moridin through the wound in his side.  I rather thought it was a side-effect of the A'dam that Semirhage used that would block out saidinbut it allowed enough of Semirhage's connection to the DO through the link to allow him to seize the True Power. 

[Demon_AS]

I hadn't thought about Rand reaching the TP had to do with a link to Moridin through the wound in his side.  I rather thought it was a side-effect of the A'dam that Semirhage used that would block out saidinbut it allowed enough of Semirhage's connection to the DO through the link to allow him to seize the True Power. 

Interesting take on it, but I don't think the a'dam allows a two-way flow of any sort with the link that is formed. You could be right, though, because - as you say - the a'dam is concerned only with the OP and not the TP.

 

However, the Rand/Moridin link is far more likely still, I think.

 

Also, don't forget that the DO supposedly cut off all access to the TP from everyone but Moridin, thus making the latter conclusion even more likely.

[jemron]

See, I'm now not certain what we can attribute to the taint, and what we can attribute to Rand being the Dragon.

 

What IS the taint, beyond a slick coating on the OP which turns male channelers mad? Sure, Rand went a bit nuts - but it's been highlighted in TGS that the nature of his madness probably had more to do with the stress of being proclaimed TDR and having the weight of the world than the taint.

 

So, voice of LTT = a result of stress induced madness?

 

But how can that account for memories, skills and talents? If he was mad, he wouldn't GAIN anything from it, would he? That doesn't seem like insanity to me. Surely if it was pure insanity, he'd just kill everyone and everything? I know he threatened to do it at the end there with the CK, but something about this whole situation doesn't ring true.

 

This is my best way of trying to simplify what I understand:

 

• Rand's memories of Lews Therin come from the effects of the taint.
   
  
• The voice of Lews Therin comes from Rand's own mind as a way to try and deal or cope with the stress of (a) the effects of the taint and (b) his "calling" as the DR.
  

 

Now here it is in a bit more detail, again, as I understand it:

 

• Memories of Lews Therin's life, personality, face, acquaintances, etc... come from effects of the taint.  The taint actually "breaks down" the barrier between some men's current life and their past lives.  That is how Rand has those memories.  The taint did this.  That's how the memories and his knowledge of all of these things are real...  Because he actually remembers living as Lews Therin.  The taint does not cause men to hear voices in their heads!  This is just how some men cope with experiencing strange memories of their past lives.  The taint eventually causes them to go mad because it is so hard on their brains, and their brains try to "heal" themselves by creating voices as a way to "justify" or "explain" the strange memories. 
   
  
• The voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head that seems to have conversations with Rand and everything is nothing more than a construct that Rand has created to deal with the effects of the taint.  Remember how Rand tried over and over to convince himself that Lews Therin (the voice, not the memories) was real?  His reasoning was that if it was real, then he's not mad...  So of course he wanted to believe that the voice was real... But it wasn't!  The voice was a construct that Rand/Rand's mind created to deal with the craziness of the taint (in other words, the real memories of Lews Therin--Rand's past life, not another person--that he had that came from the effects of the taint).
  

 

Finally, the insanity of the taint, in Rand's case, was gradual, not sudden.  He would've eventually turned to killing people (which he almost did do at the end of the book).  He just didn't get to that point, luckily...

 

Whew!  Writing that out was good for me.  It helped me clear my head of confusion.  Now hopefully my mind is clear enough that I won't construct a voice in my head to deal with the intricacies of trying to understand the mysteries of the Wheel of Time and RJs mind.  Though I wouldn't mind having his memories in my head.  ;)

[Anulith]

Has anyone brought up just how Elza got the Domination Band or even knew where it was?  As far as I can recall only Cadsuane, Sorilea, and Bair knew where it was.  I don't think it was Cadsuane who told so that leads me to believe that either Sorilea or Bair is a darkfriend.  Did I miss something elsewhere that would lead to Shaidar Haran or Elza knowing where the Domination Band is and how to open the box without the traps being sprung?

[Daruya]

I was thinking the same thing!  Only Cadsuane knew where the domination band was until she showed it to Bair and Sorilea.  I like both Bair and Sorilea so the thought of one of them being a DF is truly disturbing to me . . .  If I had to pick one and bet on her, though, I think I'd pick Bair.  I think.

[Twitchy]

I just assumed that Shaidar Haran was clever and assumed that Cadsuane had it.

 

But things are rarely that simple in tWoT I guess.

[OsaroLJ]

To assign the majority of Rand's issues to the taint is a big copout-mostly because no one else who undergoes similar experiences (channeling Saidin) has someone else in their head. Furthermore, it's a bit simplistic because one ignores the very clear issues that the Dragon is facing. In fact, in reality, people face similar situations and react the same way. People hear voices all the time and if you work with them long enough, you realize that Saidin has little to do with it :P

 

I posted my opinion on this matter here: http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,47618.0.html

[toss the dice]

I hadn't thought about Rand reaching the TP had to do with a link to Moridin through the wound in his side.  I rather thought it was a side-effect of the A'dam that Semirhage used that would block out saidinbut it allowed enough of Semirhage's connection to the DO through the link to allow him to seize the True Power.  

Interesting take on it, but I don't think the a'dam allows a two-way flow of any sort with the link that is formed. You could be right, though, because - as you say - the a'dam is concerned only with the OP and not the TP.

 

However, the Rand/Moridin link is far more likely still, I think.

 

Also, don't forget that the DO supposedly cut off all access to the TP from everyone but Moridin, thus making the latter conclusion even more likely.

 

 

Actually the MALE a'dam actually does allow the two way connection. With the female a'dam its complete control but eventually with the male, the control can shift toward the person being controlled. I forget which book it said this in.

[OsaroLJ]

I just assumed that Shaidar Haran was clever and assumed that Cadsuane had it.

 

But things are rarely that simple in tWoT I guess.

 

The scary part is that Shaidar left the CK there for Rand. If he knows about the collar, then he must know about the CK. And left it there for Rand. Chilling.

[equis616]

I got from the Rand/Lew/Dragon crazy thing something slightly different

 

Throughout the WOT there are constant references to the construction of identities that different characters make in defining who they are. For instance, Lews Therin, and other people of note in the AOL, earn a third name for achievements. The forsaken, forsake their names for new names once they move to the shadow. The Seanchan change their names when they attain a different rank. In effect what this means for these characters is that they as people have changed their identities within the same life.

 

Rand is an unusual case because he becomes more than who he was at the beginning of the series, however stubbornly holds onto the identity of the name Rand Al’Thor. Due to Rands exposure to the taint, the mental boundaries that kept previous lives from his conscious mind appear to have been damaged and thus conflicting memories enter Rands conciousness. These memories are traumatic and are things that Rand stubbornly refuses to accept as part of himself, thus the voices of LTT appear as opposed to thoughts that Rand has. It must be remembered that Lews Therin was not mad when he died, but was traumatized so much by the actions of killing all of his loved ones that he took his own life. This trauma still existed when the mental barriers were broken down and Rands consciousness was expanded. On top of this Rand had to accept the ‘official’ responsibilities of being the Dragon, as part of his identity. As a counter point, Tuon in effect, symbolically at least, becomes a different person on becoming empress by taking another name.

 

In addition, and this is confirmed by a comment that Verin makes about Rands insanity, is that Rand has undergone much psychological trauma, such as being put in a box by Elaida, locked in cells, kill people, kill women, being forced into what Rand believes is his own death. These traumas have an effect. One of Rands personal fears is the loss of his sanity, so therefore anything that Rand see’s within himself as leading to him being seen as insane have to be removed from himself, or at least locked within himself, thus the Lews Therin voice begins increasing in power and presence within Rands mind. This is a dissociative disorder, probably dissociative identity disorder. listed below are the symptoms of DID

 

• multiple mannerisms, attitudes and beliefs that are not similar to each other

• headaches and other body pains

• distortion or loss of subjective time

• depersonalization

• derealization

• amnesia

• depression

• flashbacks of abuse/trauma

• unexplainable phobias

• sudden anger without a justified cause

• lack of intimacy and personal connections

• frequent panic/anxiety attacks

• auditory hallucinations of the personalities inside their mind

 

Treatment of DID attempts to reconnect the identities of disparate alters into a single functioning identity. This is precisely what happens at the end of TGS, the meeting with Tam is important, as the line, that goes something along the lines of, who Rand was and who he became clashed with one shattering and the other bursting into steam. It is on DragonMount that Rand essentially reforges his personality.

 

[Itoldyou]

So ive got a question. Does anyone have any theories as to why the Dark One granted the Rand the True Power? It does not make any sense to me not only did he lose one of his champions he also gave up a sure chance of victory in the war.

 

Well I have a theory that isn't very popular and that is that the TP is not from the DO.  The Creator created the TP, perhaps the DO was the first person to find it and he was sealed up in there with it.  Remember, Lanfear, before she was Lanfear, was just a researcher who had an idea to drill into the DO's prison to get access.  She didn't know it was the DO's prison at the time.  So the Forsaken can only get access to the TP via the DO who filters it out to them in limited quantity through the small hole she drilled.  They don't have the access code for the back door so to speak.  The DO's power doesn't come from him being of equal power to the Creator, that is just obsurd.  The DO's power comes from him being the only guy in the hot tub that is the TP.  Remember, Lanfear says that with the two access keys they could challenge the DO himself!  This just shows that the DO has limited power  but still much greater than any of the forsaken can wield.  Remember LTT and the so called 100 compaions were able to, unlinked (no women in the circle) to bitch slap the DO back inside the prison and throw a band-aid on it.  He is not all powerful like the Creator.  He is just maybe 100x more powerful than any regular Sadin/Sadair weilding person can be. The ratio of his power compared to the Forsaken is probably the same ratio as the difference between Sadain/Sadair vs. the True Power (100to1)  Rand is the Creators champion.  This is all set up.  The Creator didn't just toss the world into a microwave, set the timer for 60 seconds and then move on to another spot in the universe, he has a plan.  The plan was that Rand be given access codes to the back door so he can directly withdraw the TP and the DO can't do anything about it.  Puts them on even ground so to speak.  So Rand either kills the DO, closes the lid on the TP hottub and locks it or he simply steps on the DO's head, forces him under water adn slams the lid down  and wraps it in duct tape.  I guess we'll RAFO.

 

Anyways, that is my theory.

 

 

 

 

[Seven of Nine]

I got from the Rand/Lew/Dragon crazy thing something slightly different

 

Throughout the WOT there are constant references to the construction of identities that different characters make in defining who they are. For instance, Lews Therin, and other people of note in the AOL, earn a third name for achievements. The forsaken, forsake their names for new names once they move to the shadow. The Seanchan change their names when they attain a different rank. In effect what this means for these characters is that they as people have changed their identities within the same life.

 

Rand is an unusual case because he becomes more than who he was at the beginning of the series, however stubbornly holds onto the identity of the name Rand Al’Thor. Due to Rands exposure to the taint, the mental boundaries that kept previous lives from his conscious mind appear to have been damaged and thus conflicting memories enter Rands conciousness. These memories are traumatic and are things that Rand stubbornly refuses to accept as part of himself, thus the voices of LTT appear as opposed to thoughts that Rand has. It must be remembered that Lews Therin was not mad when he died, but was traumatized so much by the actions of killing all of his loved ones that he took his own life. This trauma still existed when the mental barriers were broken down and Rands consciousness was expanded. On top of this Rand had to accept the ‘official’ responsibilities of being the Dragon, as part of his identity. As a counter point, Tuon in effect, symbolically at least, becomes a different person on becoming empress by taking another name.

 

In addition, and this is confirmed by a comment that Verin makes about Rands insanity, is that Rand has undergone much psychological trauma, such as being put in a box by Elaida, locked in cells, kill people, kill women, being forced into what Rand believes is his own death. These traumas have an effect. One of Rands personal fears is the loss of his sanity, so therefore anything that Rand see’s within himself as leading to him being seen as insane have to be removed from himself, or at least locked within himself, thus the Lews Therin voice begins increasing in power and presence within Rands mind. This is a dissociative disorder, probably dissociative identity disorder. listed below are the symptoms of DID

 

• multiple mannerisms, attitudes and beliefs that are not similar to each other

• headaches and other body pains

• distortion or loss of subjective time

• depersonalization

• derealization

• amnesia

• depression

• flashbacks of abuse/trauma

• unexplainable phobias

• sudden anger without a justified cause

• lack of intimacy and personal connections

• frequent panic/anxiety attacks

• auditory hallucinations of the personalities inside their mind

 

Treatment of DID attempts to reconnect the identities of disparate alters into a single functioning identity. This is precisely what happens at the end of TGS, the meeting with Tam is important, as the line, that goes something along the lines of, who Rand was and who he became clashed with one shattering and the other bursting into steam. It is on DragonMount that Rand essentially reforges his personality.

Nice explanation. Makes a lot of sense.

 

Do you think the darkness that's been around Rand will be gone now? Will the negatives with his Tavereness go back into balance since his mind is once again in balance?

[Moghedian]

I just realised something:

When Rand is on top of Dragonmount (and holding the CK)

(paraphrased  :P)

 

He had only ever held this amount of power twice before, once when he was cleansing Saidin and again when he made this mountain

 

Lews Therin must have been way more powerful than Rand!  8)

 

 

[Durinax]

I just realised something:

When Rand is on top of Dragonmount (and holding the CK)

(paraphrased  :P)

 

He had only ever held this amount of power twice before, once when he was cleansing Saidin and again when he made this mountain

 

Lews Therin must have been way more powerful than Rand!  8)

 

when LTT made the mountain he drew everything he could, way past the safety limit

[kevin-nivek]

death by over channeling can temporarily make you insanely powerful, the queen of manetherin killed herself that way and was strong enough to wipe out an entire trolloc army even with balzamon there he didn't/couldn't stop it. and she was just an aes sedai, lews therin was the strongest channeler of the age

[Eleint]

What others have said is true -- overchanneling seems to make you incredibly powerful at the expense of your life.  I think of it like this: yes, you can pull the charge, but your body is the circuit breaker, and it's going to fry when what you're doing is done.  Or before, depending.

 

I /do/ think, however, that LTT was markedly more powerful than Rand is -- or was, with his integration, he might've had a leap of sorts.  Remember Narishma, he has discrete jumps in power, which confused his Aes Sedai.  Women don't work that way, they build up.  Men seem to reach plateaus then jump to the next level, reach another plateau, and so on.

 

Rand started out barely able to channel (TGH).  Jump.  He was able to do some cool things, though only if he manages to grasp Saidin (TGH-TSR).  Jump.  He's able to channel consistently due to Asmodean's training (tFoH)

 

That's where he stopped, other than knowledge.  I think he will probably get another bump, and Dragonmount seems the place to do it.  It makes narrative sense, at least to me.

[coteaz]

Being LLT reborn would make rand just as powerful in raw strength, but LTT had hundreds of years to master all aspects of the power, where as rand hasn't

[equis616]

 

Do you think the darkness that's been around Rand will be gone now? Will the negatives with his Tavereness go back into balance since his mind is once again in balance?

 

I suppose that it could go back into balance or it could go the other way, so that mostly good things happen - I think one of the important things for Rand was the why of things....... through TGS Rands purpose was really just slugging it through to the last battle where he was going to die because he had to.... now its for the chance to make amends for past mistakes and to continue loving people in all of his future lives. I (kind of) think that Rand's Ta'veren aura is tied up with Rands motivating force behind his actions.... so I think that as a sign of his remade self and new found reason for battling the DO good things will start happening around him. In this was Rand is becoming an opposing counter weight to the DO's influence in the world - thus he is becoming ready for the final showdown.

 

I kind of see now why Rands plot line was so thin in the proceeding books. The reconciliation of Rands identity makes him an exceedingly powerful figure, with an AOL knowledge of channeling and the wisdom of many many years in nation building, ruling etc. I think that he will have a much easier time now of getting people to follow him, just because he should be more skillful at leading as opposed to conquering.

[Leezus]

To assign the majority of Rand's issues to the taint is a big copout-mostly because no one else who undergoes similar experiences (channeling Saidin) has someone else in their head. Furthermore, it's a bit simplistic because one ignores the very clear issues that the Dragon is facing. In fact, in reality, people face similar situations and react the same way. People hear voices all the time and if you work with them long enough, you realize that Saidin has little to do with it :P

 

I posted my opinion on this matter here: http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,47618.0.html

 

I agree entirely. I think LTT came from Rand's unwillingness to embrace the fact that he is the Dragon. He finally admitted that he was the Dragon Reborn, and that he would have to fight TG and die there, but that's not the same thing. The Dragon Reborn throughout history is not a champion of the light, but a harbinger of the darkness to come, and that's how he's treated himself, and how he's been treated. The Dragon though, the Lord of Morning, the Prince of Dawn, <i>is</i> the champion of the light, a beacon of hope against the shadow--and Rand has simply not been this so far. Through all of his hardness and darkness, he has forsaken being an actual leader. He commands, but a leader is more than a commander. Plenty of people fear him, but how many people have, through any POVs, been noted to respect and admire him? Not many, in fact none that I can think of.

 

I think though, that is all going to change with the next book. I really hope Rand takes the titles of the Dragon to signify his acceptance, and as equis mentioned about new names signifying change, I think it's very likely.

[Harry998]

I hadn't thought about Rand reaching the TP had to do with a link to Moridin through the wound in his side.  I rather thought it was a side-effect of the A'dam that Semirhage used that would block out saidinbut it allowed enough of Semirhage's connection to the DO through the link to allow him to seize the True Power.

This can not be true since as soon as the a'dam(link with Semirhage) shattered Rand should've lost the access to the true power, however he did not I believe. Leaves either Moridin-Rand connection that gave him access or he always had access.

[Mikel of the Pure Heart]

What the hell is wrong with some of you people?! It seems to me that a fairly common theme here among fans is "I am so happy Rand has given up on his 'I am steel' outlook".... This is war, people! The Last War! Rand should be out Balefiring everything he sees! Steel? Cuendillar? Not good enough. He should be plutonium. I really hope Rand is not on the road to being a pansy again. I don't know how much more of that I can take.

[equis616]

What the hell is wrong with some of you people?! It seems to me that a fairly common theme here among fans is "I am so happy Rand has given up on his 'I am steel' outlook".... This is war, people! The Last War! Rand should be out Balefiring everything he sees! Steel? Cuendillar? Not good enough. He should be plutonium. I really hope Rand is not on the road to being a pansy again. I don't know how much more of that I can take.

 

Geneva convention anyone?, I think that it has more to do with the Rand as a nihilist like Ishydin, Rand could only continue using baelfire if he thought that the consequences were meaningless or irrelevant

[Hallow]

What the hell is wrong with some of you people?! It seems to me that a fairly common theme here among fans is "I am so happy Rand has given up on his 'I am steel' outlook".... This is war, people! The Last War! Rand should be out Balefiring everything he sees! Steel? Cuendillar? Not good enough. He should be plutonium. I really hope Rand is not on the road to being a pansy again. I don't know how much more of that I can take.

 

Basicly, what's been hammered into you since Cadsuane came into the series, and possibly even longer is that if Rand goes to TG in the state he's in now (Or was I guess), winning the last battle might just be worse than losing it.

 

Guess you missed that.

[Mikel of the Pure Heart]

I missed nothing. I understand Cadsuane's purpose. I also understand that the Rand of the majority of this series is simply not capable of winning the Last Battle, unless this series is to end in a Terry Goodkind-esque manner. I am hoping this series avoids that.