Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Tel Janin]

Ok maybe I'm missing something (or I'm just too dense to understand) but how under the light can someone use a person as a buffer?  Not that I don't think its a plausible theory, but I have tried to wrap my brain around it and It just does not want to comprehend.

 

It has been explained in several channeler's POVs that linking buffers you from drawing too much power, just like channelling through an angreal.  I'm on my umteenth reread (which I interrupted to read tGS; twice), and I just read the part about where the supergirls use the Bowl of the Winds; in that scene they're explaining the linking buffer to the Windfinders.

 

I don't know if that would work with Fain; he's not a channeller, but he's definitely gained some powerful abilities via his merger with Mordeth...

 

On the topic of the destruction of creation (or more specifically the Pattern) with the CK, that IS what Rand was considering whilst perched atop Dragonmount, which means he, at least, felt that he was drawing enough power to accomplish that feat...that may not be godlike power, but its pretty close, IMHO...

[Vorkia]

I understand linking, thats not what I'm having trouble understanding.  Maybe I should have clarified by saying how can a non channeler can be used as a buffer.  Yes Pain has been given special attributes, but none are power related.  I appreciate your help, but I still can't see how it can be done.

[Bob T Dwarf]

If I understand the idea here ( and I probably don't )

 

Rather than channel at the DO or the Bore, the idea is to channel TP at Fain.  TP being the essence of the DO and Fain being the essence of the Shadar Logoth evil then destroyt each other ala the way the Cleansing destroyed the taint.

[Vorkia]

That makes sense, but it seems a weak foundation to build this house on.  *shrugs* but who knows, it may be sturdy enough.

[Davemandred]

I understand linking, thats not what I'm having trouble understanding.  Maybe I should have clarified by saying how can a non channeler can be used as a buffer.  Yes Pain has been given special attributes, but none are power related.  I appreciate your help, but I still can't see how it can be done.

 

I envisioned it like this. I wasn't speaking of using Fain a a One Power buffer, although that seems plausible in some ways. The wounds in Rand's side fight against each other. The nature of Mordeth fights against the Dark One. Rand uses Mordeth (Fain) like a shield. Almost physically. Place him at the bore. Mordeth's nature begins to battle the DO's essence. The Focus of the orginal seal was the hearthstone disks. The focus of this seal is Mordeth himself. Weave him into the bore. Fain's body is unimportant. It is what Fain's body contains that we weave into the bore.

 

Now, I know there alot of problems with this. We just don't know enough about the nature of Mordeth to be very specific. So Fain as the thing that must touch the Dark One is problematic. However, I am FULLY confident that the True Power (Dark One's essence) will NOT be used.

[Vorkia]

*watches the light bulb click on*  Thanks!  Now that I understand.

[jemron]

Curses!  I finally finish reading that stupid 98 page-long thread (and counting), only to find that nobody really cares about it anymore, and there are 40+ pages more to read on other threads!

 

Anyway, I give up.  I will NOT read this whole thread.  I want to, but I just don't have the time anymore.  Also, I can guess what is being discussed here based on that stupid long thread...  I'm sorry if I repeat something that's already been discussed here, but it wasn't discussed in that super-long-thread-of-death...  I'll take my chances and assume it isn't in the 40 pages of discussion here either.  So here goes...

 

Has anybody considered that Rand's "insanity" wasn't just healed by a mental/emotional epiphany, but that the effects of the taint (namely the "opening" between him and his past life/lives with Lews Therin) were actually cleansed or washed away by the shear amount of OP that he had coursing through his body at the time that he was on the top of his grave (ie. Dragonmount)?

 

It seems to me that he was healed by the One Power.  Nobody has ever held that much before, that we know of.  He held as much as was humanly possible (he would have drawn in more had the sa'angreal allowed him to.)

 

Anyway, I think that was always the purpose of the CK.  It was originally made to seal the DOs prison in the AoL, but, as far as it's current age purpose; I think it was meant to be used to heal Rand of the effects of the taint.  These were the "wounds of madness" that Rand needed to heal.

 

Yes, it was an emotional ephiphany, but that's not enough to heal a man from the physical effects of the taint IMO.  He had to be literally (physically) healed.  I think that (a) channeling all of that pure OP did heal him entirely of taint effects (ie. madness)or (b) the Creator did intervene and heal him or © Rand was never mad at all, and Lews Therin was completely a construct of Rand to deal with stress and not at all a physical symptom of having channeled tainted saidin.  I'm leaning more toward A.  I don't believe C is correct, because we know that the taint did have an actual effect on Rand, causing him to have a link (memories) to his past life/lives.  While Lews Therin may not have been a real individual soul in Rand, the memories and personality of Lews Therin were real because of the taint.

 

As for B, I do think that the Creator can and will "intervene" (and maybe already has), but I'm brewing up a theory about the Creator vs. Dark One and I don't think this is the appropriate thread for it.  Where can I post a theory about the DOs prison, but with spoilers from TGS?  It does go along with some of the speculation that others have about the "3 becoming 1" meaning saidin/saidar/TP, but I don't buy that totally.

 

 

[OsaroLJ]

It's seems like people still don't understand what happened in Veins of Gold. Rand's "insanity" was hardly caused by the taint. That's the point. It was caused by a soul that was still so troubled by the mistakes he made in AOL. I made a more descriptive thread in the General Board.

 

And forget Rand Al Thor Kinslayer, the dragon almost became Rand Al Thor Worldslayer as he almost ended all existence on Dragonmount.

[lillcheese]

@jemron:

 

AFAIK no one has posted along those lines in this thread.  It was something I thought of but discounted. If channeling clean saidin were to help, it should have helped every time he channeled after the cleansing.

 

With the epiphany and Verin's comments, I don't think the Taint was the main problem.  Yes, it had an impact.  But Rand is the only one who seemed to get worse and worse after the Taint was gone.  It think he was cracking under the pressure of being savior of the universe.  The epiphany allowed him to realize that if he makes a mistake, it's okay.  He'll get another chance to try again.  It relieves the pressure enough so that he can LIVE during the time he has left.

[jemron]

It's seems like people still don't understand what happened in Veins of Gold. Rand's "insanity" was hardly caused by the taint. That's the point. It was caused by a soul that was still so troubled by the mistakes he made in AOL. I made a more descriptive thread in the General Board.

 

And forget Rand Al Thor Kinslayer, the dragon almost became Rand Al Thor Worldslayer as he almost ended all existence on Dragonmount.

 

While I haven't read your general discussion thread, I disagree that Rand's insanity was "hardly caused by the taint."  Semirhage didn't lie.  Rand DID have memories from Lews Therin that have proven accurate.  This can only have happened if the taint did actually open him up to his past life.  Maybe Lews Therin was only a construct of Rand's stress-induced insanity, but the memories of his past life/lives were definitely a result of his exposure to the taint.

 

I guess, if you are right, the question now is, was Rand healed of those effects?  Or was he just able to emotionally let Lews Therin go because of his stress-induced insanity being mentally lifted?  Maybe the "physical effects" (his memories and "link" to his past life/lives) are still there?  Will he continue to have memories from his past life, or will they go away, or, more likely, will he just keep what he got up to the point right before the taint was healed, but no longer get anymore?

 

So, was he healed from the physical effects of the taint or just his own personal mental issues?

[benr]

Rereading Veins of Gold makes it seems to me that rather than LTT being integrated into Rand, it was the other way around.  Minor point, but odd. 

[Demon_AS]

Yes, it was an emotional ephiphany, but that's not enough to heal a man from the physical effects of the taint IMO.  He had to be literally (physically) healed.  I think that (a) channeling all of that pure OP did heal him entirely of taint effects (ie. madness)or (b) the Creator did intervene and heal him or © Rand was never mad at all, and Lews Therin was completely a construct of Rand to deal with stress and not at all a physical symptom of having channeled tainted saidin.  I'm leaning more toward A.  I don't believe C is correct, because we know that the taint did have an actual effect on Rand, causing him to have a link (memories) to his past life/lives.  While Lews Therin may not have been a real individual soul in Rand, the memories and personality of Lews Therin were real because of the taint.

 

As for B, I do think that the Creator can and will "intervene" (and maybe already has), but I'm brewing up a theory about the Creator vs. Dark One and I don't think this is the appropriate thread for it.  Where can I post a theory about the DOs prison, but with spoilers from TGS?  It does go along with some of the speculation that others have about the "3 becoming 1" meaning saidin/saidar/TP, but I don't buy that totally.

Do we really know what the voice of LTT is? Semirhage said it was madness... but she's one of the Forsaken, so, as a general rule, you can probably take everything she says as a bid to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule", if you catch my drift.

 

Madness does NOT account for memories of a time long past, talents such as being able to draw and skills with the one power to suddenly increase. Rand always showed a certain penchant for the One Power - long before LTT's voice ever became an issue. Before Asmodean taught him the basics, Rand had still managed to accomplish some pretty amazing things with the Power - things that even awed the Aes Sedai.

 

Anyway, my point is that I've read many peoples' views on the topic, and a lot of them consider the voice of LTT to be the product of madness or the taint - but I still don't think we can accept that as fact. Maybe every Dragon had the potential to "tap into" their past incarnations, but no one's ever done it before. Maybe every Randlander has that potential - I refer you to the ter'angreal in Rhuidean... how would that work, if it was impossible to see previous lives? Granted that in the latter's case, you're not seeing previous incarnations of yourself, but rather your ancestry in a direct, unbroken line - but the fact that one is possible is suggestive of the fact that the other is, too.

 

The problem is - and this is a sign of fantastic story-telling - that we just don't have enough information to answer these questions, which is why we'll read on until we know.

[Twitchy]

So, all the theories of 3 becoming 1 that have to do with women I've seen have been either Egwene/Nyn, Egwene/Moir, or Nyn/Moir.

 

Has anyone thought that it could be Moiraine and Alivia? Alivia is supposed to help Rand die, which seems to be a pretty big thing...and she's supposedly even more powerful than Nynaeve. And Moiraine is the only Aes Sedai he trusts.

 

I believe that the other 3 in 1 theories are people looking to deeply into the meaning of it, the saidin/saidar/TP, Rand/Mat/Perrin, Rand/DO/Moridin, they all seem too far fetched. The Prophecies are complex, but this Prophecy seems basic. He needs to wield Callandor to fight the Last Battle, (Side note, Hell he'll probably do something important wielding it as an actual sword. In the beginning of the book he noted how he still reached toward his sword as a first instinct), anyway, he needs to wield Callandor to fight the Last Battle, needs a circle with 2 women to wield it properly, and a circle melds all of the channelers power into one. 3 becoming 1.

 

Just my two cents, I usually skulk around in the Communities, but I just finished the book and my brain is bursting with all these ideas.

[tneva82]

Do we really know what the voice of LTT is? Semirhage said it was madness... but she's one of the Forsaken, so, as a general rule, you can probably take everything she says as a bid to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule", if you catch my drift. 

 

My theory is it's LTT̈́'s personality and voice which Rand hears. Rand has LTT's personality and voice via LTT's memories he has(which are real as RJ confirmed). Maybe the memories surfaced DUE to taint. Anyway since he has memories he has the personality and voice and as insane people tend to do he starts "hearing voices". Normally the voices are totally made up but in this case due to actually having _real_ memories the voice and personality are actually that of a person who used to live.

 

Just my thought on that one. Rand went slightly nuts and started literally talking to himself except through LTT's memories(and therefore through his personality).

[tneva82]

On the topic of the destruction of creation (or more specifically the Pattern) with the CK, that IS what Rand was considering whilst perched atop Dragonmount, which means he, at least, felt that he was drawing enough power to accomplish that feat...that may not be godlike power, but its pretty close, IMHO...

 

By that logic group of individual channelers have godlike powers. All it takes is afterall enough balefire and whole pattern is ripped apart. That's likely what Rand was planning to do. Some serious balefire blasting to rip the pattern up for good.

[benr]

On the topic of the destruction of creation (or more specifically the Pattern) with the CK, that IS what Rand was considering whilst perched atop Dragonmount, which means he, at least, felt that he was drawing enough power to accomplish that feat...that may not be godlike power, but its pretty close, IMHO...

 

By that logic group of individual channelers have godlike powers. All it takes is afterall enough palefire and whole pattern is ripped apart. That's likely what Rand was planning to do. Some serious balefire blasting to rip the pattern up for good.

 

palefire:  a poor imitation of balefire.  (Sorry, I don't usually comment on typos, as I come close to leading the league in them.  Just made me laugh.)

[hozark]

Was Lews Therin ever actually a person inside Rand's head? Or was Rand Crazy, and Lews Therin was a personality that Rand created to make himself stronger and harder?

[jemron]

So, all the theories of 3 becoming 1 that have to do with women I've seen have been either Egwene/Nyn, Egwene/Moir, or Nyn/Moir.

 

Has anyone thought that it could be Moiraine and Alivia? Alivia is supposed to help Rand die, which seems to be a pretty big thing...and she's supposedly even more powerful than Nynaeve. And Moiraine is the only Aes Sedai he trusts.

 

I believe that the other 3 in 1 theories are people looking to deeply into the meaning of it, the saidin/saidar/TP, Rand/Mat/Perrin, Rand/DO/Moridin, they all seem too far fetched. The Prophecies are complex, but this Prophecy seems basic. He needs to wield Callandor to fight the Last Battle, (Side note, Hell he'll probably do something important wielding it as an actual sword. In the beginning of the book he noted how he still reached toward his sword as a first instinct), anyway, he needs to wield Callandor to fight the Last Battle, needs a circle with 2 women to wield it properly, and a circle melds all of the channelers power into one. 3 becoming 1.

 

Just my two cents, I usually skulk around in the Communities, but I just finished the book and my brain is bursting with all these ideas.

 

Funny you should mention this.  This thought occurred to me too.  Moiraine is an Aes Sedai Rand can trust.  Alivia is one of the most powerful female channelers of this age, and she is supposed to "help Rand die."  Also, some people have speculated that when Moiraine does come back, she will be a more powerful channeler than she was before, perhaps even equal to Lanfear before she bit the dust.  The theory is that Cyndane/Lanfear came back with less power (perhaps equal to Moiraine's original power) and Moiraine may come back with Lanfear's old amount of power.  I'm not saying I agree with that, but it has been mentioned.

[EnderWarrior]

hmm i think Moiraine is gona come back knowing all teh weaves from the AOL just an idea.

 

Im curious to see what happens with rand when eh finds out moiraine is still alive i think that list in his head will shatter or something

[kevin-nivek]

@jemron:

 

 

 

 The epiphany allowed him to realize that if he makes a mistake, it's okay.  He'll get another chance to try again.  It relieves the pressure enough so that he can LIVE during the time he has left.

 

that's not what happened at all, if rand makes a mistake and loses the last battle existence ends...no second chances. Something he's always known.

What happened was rand realized Why people are born again and again, and Why he should even bother to fight the dark one besides "hes destined to"

 

[Second Chance]

Im curious to see what happens with rand when eh finds out moiraine is still alive i think that list in his head will shatter or something

I always assumed her return would be what breaks his heart of iron and soul of fire. Guess I was wrong!

[Eleint]

Was Lews Therin ever actually a person inside Rand's head? Or was Rand Crazy, and Lews Therin was a personality that Rand created to make himself stronger and harder?

 

Rand was crazy.  He 'reintegrated' on Dragonmount.  I suspect much of what Semirhage said was true.  Basically:

 

• Rand started channeling.  Started gaining taint.
  
• The taint opened up a conduit to his past lives.  As Cadsuane said, this happens to many male channelers.
  
• Rand started remembering LTT's memories.  As Rand hadn't truly accepted who he was -- he is Rand al'Thor, he is NOT the Dragon.  Even after he accepted himself as the Dragon Reborn, he kept saying that LTT wasn't him and so on.
  
• So, with these memories, his mind started (with the help of the taint a bit most likely) to build a secondary personality.
  

 

Basically, LTT never had any seperate being.  He was memories that Rand's own mind created a secondary personality around.  There was no independent thought there until Rand went crazy and /created/ a split personality.  And on Dragonmount, he accepted who he is and reintegrated that personality.  And possibly more, from the text.  We don't know how much he'll remember of other lives.  But I think it likely he now knows everything LTT did.  Which is kinda scary cool.

 

I really want an AS to say Rand doesn't know what he's doing, and he rattles off OP theory from the AoL that shows he knows far more about the nature of existence than any AS from this Age.

[Demon_AS]

Was Lews Therin ever actually a person inside Rand's head? Or was Rand Crazy, and Lews Therin was a personality that Rand created to make himself stronger and harder?

 

Rand was crazy.  He 'reintegrated' on Dragonmount.  I suspect much of what Semirhage said was true.  Basically:

 

• Rand started channeling.  Started gaining taint.
  
• The taint opened up a conduit to his past lives.  As Cadsuane said, this happens to many male channelers.
  
• Rand started remembering LTT's memories.  As Rand hadn't truly accepted who he was -- he is Rand al'Thor, he is NOT the Dragon.  Even after he accepted himself as the Dragon Reborn, he kept saying that LTT wasn't him and so on.
  
• So, with these memories, his mind started (with the help of the taint a bit most likely) to build a secondary personality.
  

 

Basically, LTT never had any seperate being.  He was memories that Rand's own mind created a secondary personality around.  There was no independent thought there until Rand went crazy and /created/ a split personality.  And on Dragonmount, he accepted who he is and reintegrated that personality.  And possibly more, from the text.  We don't know how much he'll remember of other lives.  But I think it likely he now knows everything LTT did.  Which is kinda scary cool.

 

I really want an AS to say Rand doesn't know what he's doing, and he rattles off OP theory from the AoL that shows he knows far more about the nature of existence than any AS from this Age.

See, I'm now not certain what we can attribute to the taint, and what we can attribute to Rand being the Dragon.

 

What IS the taint, beyond a slick coating on the OP which turns male channelers mad? Sure, Rand went a bit nuts - but it's been highlighted in TGS that the nature of his madness probably had more to do with the stress of being proclaimed TDR and having the weight of the world than the taint.

 

So, voice of LTT = a result of stress induced madness?

 

But how can that account for memories, skills and talents? If he was mad, he wouldn't GAIN anything from it, would he? That doesn't seem like insanity to me. Surely if it was pure insanity, he'd just kill everyone and everything? I know he threatened to do it at the end there with the CK, but something about this whole situation doesn't ring true.

[Coraxian]

What makes the Dragon so unique? Being Taveren isn't really that unique, being able to channel isn't either.  The Prophecies are just a commercial in a way, but what makes him unique?  What makes him the seperate piece on the board, the fisher.

 

Normally I used to think of the Fisher King myth, him being tied to the land, the land tied to him.  If the DO gained him, he'd gain the world.

 

But reading TGS I also started to ponder on the possibility that the dragon, the third party on the board, might just have the natural ability to use the TP, without consent from the DO.

Silly theory, but I'm posting it anyway, just to be able to say I called it when it comes through ;)

 

Of course, it was probably just the merging with Moridin that gave him the ability...

 

p.s.: really looking foreward to see how he'll be in the next book

[ohaitharguiz]

Imo, Rand was basically a Schizophrenic. Not to the exact definition, but in a sense. Schizos hear voices in there head, and of course they aren't real, but they interpret them as separate beings. This seems to be what was wrong with Rand.