The Very Helpful Verin Theory

[Luckers]

Some of you will have seen this before, but I just did some updates on it and we have newbies, so here it is again...

 

The Very Helpful Verin Theory

 

This theory suggests that Verin is acting to stop the Aes Sedai doing what they do best. Meddling. Taking charge. Making an all around pest of themselves--and, oh yeah, destroying everything in the process. Or, more succinctly, that Verin is acting to stop the Aes Sedai from taking over whilst ensuring that they are there to help Rand when the Tarmon Gai'don comes round.

 

In terms of the dangers--we need look no further than Moiraine, the Aes Sedai Rand came the closest to trusting (and therefore following). Had Rand followed her advice he would not have gone to Tear, would not have defeated Be'lal and gained Callandor, would not have gone to the Waste and gained the Aiel Instant Army (or the thousands of Wise One channelers that came with it) and so on, so forth. Moiraine, on the other hand, never even paused to think her planning was wrong, and when Rand went against her she grew furious.

 

It's a reasonable mission for someone with insight to take up--the question becomes, did she have that insight. I used Moiraine to begin us off with an example, but let's follow on with that--a line of thought which leads us directly to...

 

The Lie

 

Ok, everyone gets bogged down in the fact that Verin lied. How'd she do it? Is she Black? Why does she seem to be bound against lying in tPoD? Good questions, I suppose, but still that's the problem with someone who is bound against lying--when they do everyone gets caught up in how they lied, and no one pauses to wonder why they lied. So let's shove aside the mechanics for a moment, and consider the issue of why she lied, especially to Shienarans, who practically worship the Aes Sedai. She could have said 'a pink bunny-rabbit named Lulu sent me, my Lord. It thought you'd enjoy it if I danced the sa'sara for you." and they would have bowed and given honours to the Sister. More significantly, she could simply have said "I thought you might need my help. The horn is important to us all." Perfectly reasonable, and no tricky Oaths messing her up.

 

So what did Verin achieve by bringing up Moiraine? I can only think of one thing--she destroyed everything Moiraine had been attempting to achieve when she allowed Rand to 'slip his leash'. Letting him run was a power play for Moiraine to retain control in the long run. Verin was aware of this, and her lie served only one purpose--to cause Rand to feel precisely what Moiraine didn't want him feeling--trapped under her thumb.

 

The lie, therefore, was designed specifically to drive a wedge between Rand and the one Aes Sedai he might have come to trust--and in that trust, follow.

 

Playing at Politics

 

I started with the Lie because it is regarded as the most significant Verinism, and the Rand/Moiraine bond was the closest an Aes Sedai has come to leading Rand. It is, however, the following two Verinisms which are the most telling in terms of this theory. Specifically in LoC Verin manipulates Demira into the disastrous confrontation with Rand, knowing full well that facing him down in that way would only drive a wedge between the Salidar embassy and Rand, then in tPoD she begins compelling the Tower embassy into swearing fealty to him.

 

Again, she keeps Aes Sedai from being on any sort of equal footing with Rand, yet she has no problem with them being in service to him--so it is not Aes Sedai being around him that she objects too, just Aes Sedai being in positions to influence him. Which, of course, brings us to Cadsuane.

 

Killing Caddy

 

Now some might see Cadsuane as evidence against this idea--she is wilful and has indeed managed to gain a position of influence around him. The problem is that that actually fits with this theory--Verin DOES seem worried about the hold Cadsuane is gaining. She even goes so far as almost poisoning her--she stopped only when Cadsuane reveals that she intends to act in his best interest, and that her actions and her bullying had nothing to do with getting control of him.

 

 

The conclusion we can draw from these three bits of evidence is that Verin is indeed aware of the dangers of Aes Sedai coming to take charge, and that she is acting to stop it. But what set her on this path--it could just be natural insight, but Verin states that she has been working on this for seventy years, if so what happened seventy years ago to alert her specifically to this danger? More significantly what did so in a way that would make Verin begin to plan for it fifty years before Rand was even born.

 

I have a possible answer.

 

Corianin's Notes

 

My guess is they contain notes on the Aes Sedai themselves, possibly with dreams about the dangers of the Aes Sedai gaining too much leverage on Rand, or too much control over events approaching TG. We can already see the ways in which that would have been disastrous, and in more just than the Moiraine ways listed--no Asha'men, for instance, and no clean saidin. It's my guess that Corianin's notes are what set Verin on this path.

 

Now, is there evidence for this? I think there is in the fact that she considered showing them to Egwene. Like Moiraine I suspect Verin saw that Egwene had the potential to be a driving force in the tower, and a power in upcoming events, and that given her history with Rand, a good influence on the Aes Sedai's dealings with Rand. These notes would forewarn Egwene, and possibly give Verin an ally.

 

So why does she choose not to? Well, Egwene's young, and shown herself to be a bit impulsive. These notes, if they say what I suspect they say, would be questioning the very principals of the Tower. They would suggest directly acting against the Tower's best interest and in the interest of a man who can channel. And that is against both Law and custom--that Verin was planning to act on them could have seen her stilled. Egwene may have been inclined to be more liberal, but she was still dedicated to the Tower, and impressed by the doctrine of the Aes Sedai. The risk was too great.

 

Conclusions

 

Ultimately every one of her peculiar actions lend themself to one thing--Verin acting to keep Aes Sedai from taking over, and yet still stay involved in the fight against the Shadow. Of course this still leaves things up in the air--why did she say nothing about Luc, how did she lie... I suspect we won't know the answers to those till it's revealed in the book. Either way I would sustain that her purpose is as stated above.

 

[Arkelias]

Very interesting post, Luckers.  It brings up a lot of great questions.  I did want a clarification if you don't mind.  Its been a long time since I read TGH.  What was the lie Verin told?

[Luckers]

When Verin caught up with the Shienarans in tGH she told them...

 

"Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile. "She thought you might need me."

 

Moiraine had this to say...

 

"I did not send Verin." Moiraine frowned. "She did that on her own. You are of interest to a great many people, Rand. Did Fain find you, or you him?"

 

I'd check out the WoTFAQ if you wanted details on the various theories about The Lie. For myself I find the reason of the lie more interesting than the lie itself.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

I kinda like this one, Luckers.

 

One problem I see is that, if as you theorize, Verin is really trying to help Rand remain a free agent, why leave Cadsuane in such a strong position?  Cadsuane clearly has the upper hand in her relationship with Rand, so whether she intended to or not, she is already controlling him.  That's the very thing your theory says she does not want any Aes Sedai to do.

[Luckers]

I kinda like this one, Luckers.

 

One problem I see is that, if as you theorize, Verin is really trying to help Rand remain a free agent, why leave Cadsuane in such a strong position?  Cadsuane clearly has the upper hand in her relationship with Rand, so whether she intended to or not, she is already controlling him.  That's the very thing your theory says she does not want any Aes Sedai to do.

 

Which is exactly what I was trying to address in the 'killing Caddy' section. Verin pulls back once she learns Cadsuane's intentions--this shows that Verin's concerns are not so much in stopping Aes Sedai from having an influence on Rand, but stopping Aes Sedai from trying to control Rand simply because they believe they should. Her compelling Aes Sedai adds to this. She wants Aes Sedai aiding Rand, but not controlling him.

 

And this holds true. Cadsuane, for all her sharpness, doesn't seek to take control. She offers her opinion (harshly), and has her agenda(bluntly), but she doesn't have the 'an Aes Sedai should be dictating events here, because that's what Aes Sedai do' attitude.

[Arkelias]

Verin knows who Min is, and I'm wondering if she believes that Cadsuane needs to teach Rand something per her viewing?  Combined with the fact that Cadsuane has stated she wants what's best for the boy and not the tower would probably make Verin more comfortable with her motives.

[yellie1107]

I like your theory Luckers, however, I have one question. Where does the one "mistake" as Verin calls it fits in with your theory? The mistake she made 70 years ago.

[Mr. Micawber]

And this holds true. Cadsuane, for all her sharpness, doesn't seek to take control. She offers her opinion (harshly), and has her agenda(bluntly), but she doesn't have the 'an Aes Sedai should be dictating events here, because that's what Aes Sedai do' attitude.

 

I'd go beyond that, Luckers, and say that her agenda is explicitly geared towards keeping him alive and capable of uniting everyone. Which, it should be added, Moiraine finally realized in the last few months of her life, after she pledged fealty to Rand.

 

Moreover, Cadsuane seems to understand - and I think Verin has increasingly come to agree with her - that what Rand's doing to himself is beyond unhealthy - it's jeopardizing the fate of the entire world. Cadsuane, better than even the Three Babes, seems to really *get* that Rand may not get to the Last Battle, because he's driving himself insane. In addition, she seems to understand better than Elayne - I think the other two girls are irrelevant here because they're not AS - that nearly every single move both the SAS and TAS have made is making Rand more paranoid, more unstable, and less likely to win.

 

While Elaida provoked the worst of it, I'd say Egwene's cavalier treatment of Rand - and Elayne's sequel to Eggs' boneheaded move regarding the existence of the Rebels back in LOC - is exactly the last thing he needs.

 

In short, Cadsuane's giving Rand tough love, but *at the same time* she seems to be one of the few to try to understand his side of the story; and where she manipulates, RJ's pretty much demonstrated that she's actually correct - as we see Rand grudgingly admit inside his head, if not out loud.

 

Note: As an aside, Rand's always been stubborn, but this blinding arrogance seems to have always been associated with LTT, based on what we've heard about him starting with Elan Morin in TEOTW. When I recall LTT's commentary about Sammael - "when did I ever slight you, or give you a finger less than your due?" - it became pretty obvious that his incomprehension of Tel Janin's betrayal goes a long way to clearing up why incredible generals like Tel Janin and Barid Bel defected at a point when RJ says the Light was actually winning (years 2-6 of the war).

 

I'd say that Verin recognizes that *Cadsuane* grasps how awful Rand can be these days. Witness Rand's reaction to the High Lords saying they'll accept him if Darlin gets to be king. Cadsuane only chastises him when he acts like a total dick. In fact, he seems almost jealous of Darlin. I think that somebody has *got* to make him understand that he's *not* the all-supreme poo-bah of the world, but ALSO make sure to do it in a way that is gradual and acceptable, unlike either Elaida (no beatings) or Egwene (no childish needling and pissing him off).

[Rand Skywalker]

I like this idea and hope that it is true.  It would make me like Verin even more, and she's already tied with Moiraine for my fav Aes Sedai.  The idea that Rand needs help and genuine support rather than a continual schedule of ridicule and "humbling" makes MUCH more sense and feels more authentic to me.

[Mighty Chin]

I think RJ just made a mistake there. Was he ever posed this question about the lie? I think it's just a throwaway line..

[moroten]

Nicely done Luckers, as always.

 

Your theory is sound. Although if this was her goal and something she has been working on for 70 years, what was her goal with the two rivers recruitment? Sure new girls who can be taught is always nice to come by, but with your theory the interest of the tower doesnt lie closest to her heart at the moment. Doesnt really speak against your theory, just make her motive blurry thats all.

[Balefire to da face!]

I know that "The Lie" is a huge deal in WoT circles of debate, and I am sure this has been pointed out before, but why exactly is it such a big deal? Verin dropped the bomb on Suian and Moiraine at the beginning of TGH, and with some lightly shrouded words basically said "You let me observe Rand succumb to the effects of the taint, and I'll keep your secret". We know that the oath has some flex when it comes to interpretation by the Aes Sedai in question. I see no reason why Moiraine and Suian giving conscent, even if silent, of Verin's proposition couldn't be construed as "Moiraine sent me" in Verin's mind.

 

Anywho, don't want to derail this thread, which I think is an interesting take on things. I love Verins character, she is like the female Taim. A wildcard who's motivations we are just not sure of, even after multiple revealing PoV's.

[Mashiara Sedai]

And where does Verin's forgetfulness play into everything?  Is it just an act so no one thinks she's up to something?  Or is her brain really so scattered?  She seems to be a typical Brown in that aspect, so she may just be keeping up appearances.

 

I agree with Balefire.  Verin could easily believe Moiraine sent her, even though Moiraine doesn't feel the same way.  It's a very easy thing to convience youself something is true when it's not.  There are tons of instances where we see Aes Sedai believe contradicting things.

 

Verin is a really awesome character and I can't wait to see where she's disappeared off to.  Hopefully it's stated in the next book.

 

~Mashiara

[moroten]

And where does Verin's forgetfulness play into everything?  Is it just an act so no one thinks she's up to something?  Or is her brain really so scattered?  She seems to be a typical Brown in that aspect, so she may just be keeping up appearances.

 

I agree with Balefire.  Verin could easily believe Moiraine sent her, even though Moiraine doesn't feel the same way.  It's a very easy thing to convience youself something is true when it's not.  There are tons of instances where we see Aes Sedai believe contradicting things.

 

Verin is a really awesome character and I can't wait to see where she's disappeared off to.  Hopefully it's stated in the next book.

 

~Mashiara

 

She is soo off to make sure that Mat has the Horn :P.

[Mashiara Sedai]

I hope that's where she's at.  That'll be so cool to have her show up with it when Mat's just leaving the Tower of Ghenjei with Moiraine.

 

~Mashi

[Luckers]

I like your theory Luckers, however, I have one question. Where does the one "mistake" as Verin calls it fits in with your theory? The mistake she made 70 years ago.

 

Well, she states that it was seventy-one years ago, which is curious. Just prior to setting out on this mission. Perhaps the mistake was what led her to the notes--maybe it was the incident with the ring ter'angreal that left her with a scar.

 

I think RJ just made a mistake there. Was he ever posed this question about the lie? I think it's just a throwaway line..

 

I doubt that. He directly phrased it twice in the same book.

 

Ingtar - Why are you here.

Verin - Moiraine sent me.

Rand - You sent Verin.

Moiraine - I did not send Verin.

 

That sort of direct phrasing is hard to get around.

 

And where does Verin's forgetfulness play into everything?  Is it just an act so no one thinks she's up to something?  Or is her brain really so scattered?  She seems to be a typical Brown in that aspect, so she may just be keeping up appearances.

 

We've known it was just an act for some time. In fact we see Verin specifically put it on.

 

 

[Al Thor93]

You have given me a lot to think on Luckers, as I re-read the series. Verin definately is not all she seems. Thanks for the thoughts. ;)

[Jillain Sanche]

Thanks, Luckers, you really pull it all together. In my second read of the series now, and just reread the scene with Verin, Siuan and Moiraine at Fal Dara, around the translation of the writings in blood on the walls after Fain's escape.

 

She might be the most brilliant Aes Sedai of them all, and having had decades of practice at the scattered and unaware-of-the-world-around-them Brown persona is easily able to hide the fact and therefore more able to pursue her agenda of preventing the others from their typical and unthought-out agendas of taking charge.

[Mashiara Sedai]

And where does Verin's forgetfulness play into everything?  Is it just an act so no one thinks she's up to something?  Or is her brain really so scattered?  She seems to be a typical Brown in that aspect, so she may just be keeping up appearances.

 

We've known it was just an act for some time. In fact we see Verin specifically put it on.

 

 

 

But to what purpose?

 

~Mashi

[Balefire to da face!]

If you are weak, appear strong. If you are strong, appear weak? ;)

[Luckers]

And where does Verin's forgetfulness play into everything?  Is it just an act so no one thinks she's up to something?  Or is her brain really so scattered?  She seems to be a typical Brown in that aspect, so she may just be keeping up appearances.

 

We've known it was just an act for some time. In fact we see Verin specifically put it on.

 

 

 

But to what purpose?

 

~Mashi

 

So no one pays attention to her. She is quite literally commiting treason--and not even incidental treason. She is acting against the Tower in the best interest of a man who can channel. Not even Moiraine or Siuan went that far.

 

Your theory is sound. Although if this was her goal and something she has been working on for 70 years, what was her goal with the two rivers recruitment? Sure new girls who can be taught is always nice to come by, but with your theory the interest of the tower doesnt lie closest to her heart at the moment. Doesnt really speak against your theory, just make her motive blurry thats all.

 

Research on Rand, maybe? And it's not that Verin doesn't have the interest of the Tower at heart, she's just more realistic in how she serves it. Sort of a 'not letting their own stupidity do them harm' kind of effort. Besides there are definately things still up in the air with Verin--the whole Luc thing, for one. She can have more than one agenda, but here general one, her most significant one, seems to be keeping the Aes Sedai from taking charge.

[Charlz Guybon]

Good job rehashing it Luckers, I've always agreed with this theory.

 

I think Verin's currently going back for the horn, though how she plans on tracking down Mat I don't know, unless there's more about him in the prophecies.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I kinda like this one, Luckers.

 

One problem I see is that, if as you theorize, Verin is really trying to help Rand remain a free agent, why leave Cadsuane in such a strong position?  Cadsuane clearly has the upper hand in her relationship with Rand, so whether she intended to or not, she is already controlling him.  That's the very thing your theory says she does not want any Aes Sedai to do.

 

Which is exactly what I was trying to address in the 'killing Caddy' section. Verin pulls back once she learns Cadsuane's intentions--this shows that Verin's concerns are not so much in stopping Aes Sedai from having an influence on Rand, but stopping Aes Sedai from trying to control Rand simply because they believe they should. Her compelling Aes Sedai adds to this. She wants Aes Sedai aiding Rand, but not controlling him.

 

And this holds true. Cadsuane, for all her sharpness, doesn't seek to take control. She offers her opinion (harshly), and has her agenda(bluntly), but she doesn't have the 'an Aes Sedai should be dictating events here, because that's what Aes Sedai do' attitude.

 

Well, Cadsuane doesn't think anyone should be dictating to her, that's for sure.  And, as we see throughout this series, intentions seldom equal results.  Further, as we see throughout, Cadsuane doesn't advise, she doesn't counsel, she just manipulates.  And, where manipulation doesn't get results fast enough, she bullies.

 

Manipulation is a tool of those seeking to establish and maintain control.

 

That's my whole problem with Cadsuane - nothing she has done thus far shows me that she is intent on helping Rand in any way.  Everything she does is so totally misguided, and wide of the mark.  Unless her real intent is not her stated intent.

 

The best thing that Verin could have done to help Rand would be to have killed Cadsuane when she had the chance.

[Blackhoof]

Maybe Cadsuanes' view of 'what is best for the boy' is something that rand might not see is best for him. I personally can't like her, whatever her intentions; shes a bully, she mean, shes like an ultra-Nynaeve, (and i dont like Nynaeve one bit.)

[Luckers]

I kinda like this one, Luckers.

 

One problem I see is that, if as you theorize, Verin is really trying to help Rand remain a free agent, why leave Cadsuane in such a strong position?  Cadsuane clearly has the upper hand in her relationship with Rand, so whether she intended to or not, she is already controlling him.  That's the very thing your theory says she does not want any Aes Sedai to do.

 

Which is exactly what I was trying to address in the 'killing Caddy' section. Verin pulls back once she learns Cadsuane's intentions--this shows that Verin's concerns are not so much in stopping Aes Sedai from having an influence on Rand, but stopping Aes Sedai from trying to control Rand simply because they believe they should. Her compelling Aes Sedai adds to this. She wants Aes Sedai aiding Rand, but not controlling him.

 

And this holds true. Cadsuane, for all her sharpness, doesn't seek to take control. She offers her opinion (harshly), and has her agenda(bluntly), but she doesn't have the 'an Aes Sedai should be dictating events here, because that's what Aes Sedai do' attitude.

 

Well, Cadsuane doesn't think anyone should be dictating to her, that's for sure.  And, as we see throughout this series, intentions seldom equal results.  Further, as we see throughout, Cadsuane doesn't advise, she doesn't counsel, she just manipulates.  And, where manipulation doesn't get results fast enough, she bullies.

 

Manipulation is a tool of those seeking to establish and maintain control.

 

That's my whole problem with Cadsuane - nothing she has done thus far shows me that she is intent on helping Rand in any way.  Everything she does is so totally misguided, and wide of the mark.  Unless her real intent is not her stated intent.

 

The best thing that Verin could have done to help Rand would be to have killed Cadsuane when she had the chance.

 

I'm not going to get in another fighting match about Cadsuane with you. You hate her, I think she's doing one of the most important jobs around--and doing it incredibly well under the circumstances.

 

It's irrelevant to this thread. All that matters to in that aspect is what Verin thinks--and in this Verin backs off when Cadsuane speaks of wanting to help Rand.