Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[LordOoze]

Just a few thoughts...

 

Before the bore was found/opened there were no forsaken... after the bore and the discovery of the Dark One there were no Forsaken except the people who in that age turned to the DO.

By the end all the current Forsaken must be totally eliminated (beyond the DO's reach) except maybe Moridin...he alone seems to understand (and know??) that the Dragon and him have been fighting for many turnings of the weel.

If the Forsaken weren't beyond the DO's reach could he just bring them back after a full turning?? Which we know he never does as the Chosen are from Lews' age only.

 

Rand's list:

Surely obselete now.... Lews reconcilled himself with the fact people die, wheel turns and we meet them again - hopefully with the wrongs er righted...

Rand (according to himself anyway) has a list of women who died due to him... beat/subdue DO...wheel turns...the person is reborn...

 

Aiel:

 

Remnant of a remnant?? ...The Jenn are no more...The Tinkers are just that! Way of the Leaf is still held - as it was in Lews' day. They now are beginning to live in cities ( as aiel did then).

 

Extra:

Stuff like calandor was made in Lews' age so unless Power objects degrade (including cuellindor) most of that must be gone or rendered out by next turning. Surely something like 'Huge Chains of Cuellindor were a mystery of the Age before the Age of Power' (like the ones hanging about in Tar Valon) would'be been noted by now?

 

As Herid Fel (ugh typo ) once said 'much should be as it was' when he spoke about the turning of the wheel and sealing away the DO

 

[Entretamis]

Just finished reading all 67 pages, and I thought to add my own points on what we will see in ToM and point I agree/disagree.

Demondred:

- He is not Taim

- He is not Bashere

- I don’t see him being with the borderlanders. Although he could have something to do with that, he is not physically with him.

- I can see how he might be the king of Murandy.  Although I don’t see that fitting with his personality.  D has always been in competition with LT, and an army of 35k or so is no match to what the DR has.

- I personally think he is in Seachan.  The empire there is in chaos. The empress is dead, and there is a whole empire ready for the taking.  I would not be surprised if he is assembling a huge army in Towers of Midnight and is getting ready to transport them to randland.

Moiraine/ToG:

- We will see her, probably towards the end of the first half of the book.

- Min’s vision of Mat with an eye on a scale, and I believe Egwene’s dream of him holding his eye with blood flowing, is mat trading an eye for her release.

- I don’t think her bond with Lan was severed.  I believe it was just transferred once the connection between finnland and randland was broken, basically when the doorway melted.  So basically she wasn’t stilled, she did not die.  I do believe they got their wishes, however bargained poorly.  If we look back the Mat went there they kept asking him what he wanted done, he flipped out and said, I’ll paraphrase: “what I want done? I what the holes in my memory filled, I want to be done with AS, and I want to get out of here.” The Finns then says: “it is good you requested to get out of here, but you should have specified how.”  So in short both Moiraine and Lanfear did not ask to leave, there for they were “held.”  Is possible that one of Moiraine request was to kill the forsaken.  Or maybe once Lanfear realized she would not be released she try to fight them and lost, hence she was killed.

- Olver (WHO IS NOT CAIN), will play a significant role.  I think he is the third man.  In the books Mat keeps saying that does not think Olver is nine.  So I think he is prob in his teens and really short and ugly.  (I know this is a farfetched idea,  but I think is plausible)

- Her and casuade will go at it, and nyaneave  and min will said with moiraine.

Lanfear:

- Her power is lower, obviously.  Why is this? It is just because when you are reincarnated, you lose some of your strength.  We kind of see this with the others.  We have PoV from the Gars at one point, its been a while cant remember the book.  But they state that they are unpleased on how they were reincarnated. Well, we know why Bel is unpleased, he is a woman now. But why would Arginor be unhappy? The only reason I can think of is his strength diminished.  So be it a side effect, or just a punishment from the DO, I don’t think Lanfear was ever stilled.

Rand:

- We know that aMoL is going to be all about the Last Battle, so it is safe to assume that we will see a treaty with the Seachan.  Unless RJ and BS plan for the light to lose.

When Rand went thought the doorway in tear he asked how he could win the last battle: “The east and south need to be one, the north and west need to be one. They both need to be one” or something along those lines was what the Finns answered.  So right now the Seachan control the north/west, and Rand the east/south.  So now they both need to be one. 

This will probably happen after Moiraine is saved and Mat is reunited with Rand.  I’m pretty sure Mat is the key here.  I think the Prince of the Ravens title gives him control over the Seachan army, and because of this Tuon will be “bound” to help Rand.

- He will meet with Egwene, know her anger, and tell her to do as she wishes with the black tower.

- Talks to Tam again

Black tower:

- Logain will have his glory

- Egwene and Logain will chat and they will together clean the BT

- It would be nice if the WT and the now clean BT join.  The Ashaman go into Elaidas mansion.  However I think they will still be two separate entities.

Perrin

- He will still be a pussy.

- I hope not I would like to start liking him, but he has been my least favorite character of the series.

- Sings the song.

Mat

- Opens Verin letter

- Gets the horn

- Losed an eye

- Saves moiraine

- Meets Rand

- Plays some dice, wins some money, drinks some beers

- Help with Rand-Seachan threaty

- Bitch slaps Tuon in her place

- Kills the gholem

- Builds cannons

- Bitch slaps elayne

- Not necessarily in that order.

Fain

- He will be back

Others

- Tandark family reunion

- Casueade teaches what she needs to

- We find out some aile are df

- Avheida becomes a WO and finds some cool stuff, and then gets knocked up.

- Min figures out the 3 in 1 (while I think two female are need for the sword to work, I think rand needs to control the waves.  Kinda boring if he didn’t. Im the DR but some chick will kill/seal the DO ill just stand pretty.  I think he will use the TP with calandor with his link with Moradin.)

- Lan kicks some trollocks ass

- Mat drinks some beers.

 

 

[waggawagga]

I am convinced that TOM will end with Rand breaking the seals on the DO's prison, setting up for TG in AMOL. Before this we will see all of the heroes together and in some measure happy and positive that they have a chance at TG

 

That will allow for a really bleak and morbid beginning to AMOL and allow desperation and bleakness to be the theme

 

TOM will be tying up lose ends IMO which I can envisage as:

 

Return of M - bonds Tom

Treaty with Seanchen

Egwene to bleat and moan at Rand

Tuon revealed as a channeler and all leashed ladies released

Elaida to carry out some important redemption? (just feels like it might fit)

Taveren to get together ready for TG

Tuon to travel to Seanchen to assert her emperoressity

Ogier to join the fray cos of Loial

Elayne to be crowned with Morgase's blessing

Gawywn and Egwene to get hitched - although him to die in TG in AMOL

Perrin to continue being a boring fruitcake wolf worshipping freakoid

Matt to lose an eye rescue M and broker peace with Seanchen

Aiel song to be rediscovered

 

AMOL predictions:

 

DO and Rand to die

Matt and Perrin survive

Others die

 

[thorian]

 

I would think that the DO can`t get a grip on the world without winning the last battle, There will be no last battle without the dragon reborn. So with that in mind he would send his most trusted darkfriend to ensure that the dragon survives and start fulfilling prophesy`s.

 

Moiraine is the one "the Great Lord" sends to protect Rand, and to punish Lanfear for plotting for her self instead of the DO.

 

The letters to Thom is just a evil plot to send Mat to his doom in towers of Ghenjei, whereas Tuon redirects the Seanchan to rescue the Prince of Ravens.

 

Rand has to kill moiraine again to "clear the rubble" and open DO`s prison.

 

Blade of light, 3 become one: Nynaeve channeling saidar, Logain channeling saidin and Rand channeling the true power through Callandor. They can`t kill the DO, but they hold him down while Egwene reclose the bore with cuendillar seals.

 

And let the 4`th Age come... Btw Rand goes mad from the amount of true power, Alivia kill`s him, and the tinkers save him with the song.. :)

 

 

[Declan]

wow. you really don't like Moiraine. Even though there are pages of proof that she is in fact not a darkfriend you are suggesting that she isn't? Sounds like a terrible theory to me. Wasn't it Ishmael that made sure no one was to harm Rand? still fits with your "most trusted" advisor theory by the DO.

[Shin]

 

I would think that the DO can`t get a grip on the world without winning the last battle, There will be no last battle without the dragon reborn. So with that in mind he would send his most trusted darkfriend to ensure that the dragon survives and start fulfilling prophesy`s.

 

Moiraine is the one "the Great Lord" sends to protect Rand, and to punish Lanfear for plotting for her self instead of the DO.

 

The letters to Thom is just a evil plot to send Mat to his doom in towers of Ghenjei, whereas Tuon redirects the Seanchan to rescue the Prince of Ravens.

 

Rand has to kill moiraine again to "clear the rubble" and open DO`s prison.

 

Blade of light, 3 become one: Nynaeve channeling saidar, Logain channeling saidin and Rand channeling the true power through Callandor. They can`t kill the DO, but they hold him down while Egwene reclose the bore with cuendillar seals.

 

And let the 4`th Age come... Btw Rand goes mad from the amount of true power, Alivia kill`s him, and the tinkers save him with the song.. :)

 

 

 

None of what you said makes any sense whatsoever.

 

 

There have been many passages with Moiraine's PoV. None of them left any room whatsoever to think that she might be a darkfriend.

 

Now let's imagine she is a darkfriend. Why the hell would she choose to attack Lanfear and get stuck in the Finnworld. Then force Matt to come and save her, if she could just as easily have killed hem off, loooong ago. Also how exactly is Tuon supposed to find out that Matt is in trouble fast enough for her to be able to save him in time.

Let's not start about Min's viewings.

 

Next: how does killing Moiraine in any way "clear the rubble." Is she rubble? Have I missed a passage where she is revealed to be some sort of rubble?

 

Also, why would The Dark One allow Rand to use HIS power to hold him down? And do you really think that Egewene can produce Cuellindar at such a fast rate that she can close the bore.

 

Alivia killing Rand seems like a wrong explanation for the viewing, especially considering helping him die doesn't sound like killing him. And what exactly do you think the song does, revive people?

 

Sorry if I seem offensive, but your theories just puzzled me so!

[pacificflows]

I also dont get the Egwene hating- gawyn yes i can understand because he's a moron- but Egwene? What's not to like about her? She literally grew up before our eyes from books 2 to 6. Then, asserted control applying what she had learned from Siuan. Why do you think Ishamael needed her and Nynaeve to be collared and taken across the ocean so badly? He knew what they would become- especially Egwene. Her role in all of this is pivotal- without her unifying force, the Tower falls to the Seanchan in very short order(mostly because the AS are all chicken #### morons), and Rand very well ends up collared himself because the only women left not collared are the few with him or Black Ajah. Egwene is one of those classical heroines in that she is strong but flexible, wise beyond her years but willing to act decisvely when necessary. What's not to like?

 

She was also mentored by Moraine.

[randfandom]

 

I would think that the DO can`t get a grip on the world without winning the last battle, There will be no last battle without the dragon reborn. So with that in mind he would send his most trusted darkfriend to ensure that the dragon survives and start fulfilling prophesy`s.

 

Moiraine is the one "the Great Lord" sends to protect Rand, and to punish Lanfear for plotting for her self instead of the DO.

...

And let the 4`th Age come... Btw Rand goes mad from the amount of true power, Alivia kill`s him, and the tinkers save him with the song.. :-)

 

None of what you said makes any sense whatsoever.

 

There have been many passages with Moiraine's PoV. None of them left any room whatsoever to think that she might be a darkfriend.

...

Sorry if I seem offensive, but your theories just puzzled me so!

 

Oh man! You guys have no sense of humor... Thanks thorian for the laugh!

 

:-)

[Tigraine]

 

I would think that the DO can`t get a grip on the world without winning the last battle, There will be no last battle without the dragon reborn. So with that in mind he would send his most trusted darkfriend to ensure that the dragon survives and start fulfilling prophesy`s.

 

Moiraine is the one "the Great Lord" sends to protect Rand, and to punish Lanfear for plotting for her self instead of the DO.

 

The letters to Thom is just a evil plot to send Mat to his doom in towers of Ghenjei, whereas Tuon redirects the Seanchan to rescue the Prince of Ravens.

 

Rand has to kill moiraine again to "clear the rubble" and open DO`s prison.

 

Blade of light, 3 become one: Nynaeve channeling saidar, Logain channeling saidin and Rand channeling the true power through Callandor. They can`t kill the DO, but they hold him down while Egwene reclose the bore with cuendillar seals.

 

And let the 4`th Age come... Btw Rand goes mad from the amount of true power, Alivia kill`s him, and the tinkers save him with the song.. :)

 

 

 

None of what you said makes any sense whatsoever.

 

 

There have been many passages with Moiraine's PoV. None of them left any room whatsoever to think that she might be a darkfriend.

 

Now let's imagine she is a darkfriend. Why the hell would she choose to attack Lanfear and get stuck in the Finnworld. Then force Matt to come and save her, if she could just as easily have killed hem off, loooong ago. Also how exactly is Tuon supposed to find out that Matt is in trouble fast enough for her to be able to save him in time.

Let's not start about Min's viewings.

 

Next: how does killing Moiraine in any way "clear the rubble." Is she rubble? Have I missed a passage where she is revealed to be some sort of rubble?

 

Also, why would The Dark One allow Rand to use HIS power to hold him down? And do you really think that Egewene can produce Cuellindar at such a fast rate that she can close the bore.

 

Alivia killing Rand seems like a wrong explanation for the viewing, especially considering helping him die doesn't sound like killing him. And what exactly do you think the song does, revive people?

 

Sorry if I seem offensive, but your theories just puzzled me so!

 

 

I really have to agree with this although with less words.

 

 

[SimpleJo]

Alivia killing Rand seems like a wrong explanation for the viewing, especially considering helping him die doesn't sound like killing him.

I agree the other is too straightforward to make sense.  The whole living and dying thing has got too much going on in the metaphorical sense to take it at face value.  Besides Nicola's foretelling basically guarantees that Aviendha, Elyane, and Min will go off beyond the horizon with Rand ala Lady in the Lake and Gandalf et al if he is victorious.  As an aside it also guarantees that the Ashaman and Aes Sedai will co-exist and have to deal with the Seanchan after the Last Battle.  (That alone would make for a good trilogy).

[Calderis]

Wow, know I should have known better, but I never expected WoT forums to have trolls.

 

Way to win the internet Thorian

[thorian]

Alright, I`ll agree on the flaws in that wild theory of mine :)

 

What i don`t want to see in the last books is the standard ending i`m afraid we get with Mat, Thom and Olver saving Moiraine

 

Rand Moiraine and Nynaeve channeling through Callandor with Moiriane weaving the flows.

 

Mat ordering the Seanchan, and Perrin the Wolfes/whitecloaks

 

Egwene uniting the WT and BT, and figure out bigger circles then 13

 

Aviendha finds an artifact/the song for the Tinkers

 

Lan ofc recover/rebuilds the 7 towers of Malkier

 

The End and all live happily ever after..

 

Sorry "if" my last theory seemed a bit far fetched :)

[Eleint]

One thing I doubt, that I've seen people say over and over is Egwene linking the WT and the BT.  Like it's her place to do so.  If the Aes Sedai and Asha'man are linked, it is -not- going to be merely Egwene that does it.  To be honest, I think it'll be a hard sell to have it happen at all, she has all the Aes Sedai arrogance in that respect -- see, even in tGS her talk about how Rand has to be controlled by Aes Sedai and so on.

[mossman87]

Alivia killing Rand seems like a wrong explanation for the viewing, especially considering helping him die doesn't sound like killing him.

I agree the other is too straightforward to make sense.  The whole living and dying thing has got too much going on in the metaphorical sense to take it at face value.  Besides Nicola's foretelling basically guarantees that Aviendha, Elyane, and Min will go off beyond the horizon with Rand ala Lady in the Lake and Gandalf et al if he is victorious.  As an aside it also guarantees that the Ashaman and Aes Sedai will co-exist and have to deal with the Seanchan after the Last Battle.  (That alone would make for a good trilogy).

 

We definitely over-analyze things though, just one example being the beggar prophecy (or was it a dream?) and being blind just being Rand getting a coat from a tinker and seeing the Light again on top of Dragonmount.

[WolfDragonFox]

Rand takes an entourage of people to see Egwene including his pops Tam.  Gaiwyn says you bastard I'm gonna slice you other hand off but Tam tells him his mom's is cool and unharmed chillin w/ Perrin.

 

Perrin(who is not boring) finally understands what Hopper is saying to him in the wolf dream and takes his place as the wolf king and starts building an army of vicious shadow haters.

 

Mat saves Moiraine in Finnland.  Courage to strengthen, Fire to Blind, Music to Dazzle Iron to Bind.  I think we all know Thom will take care of the music and so that leaves fire iron and courage.  These are the things i want to figure out.

 

LOIAL FINALLY RETURNS FROM ROUSTING THE OGIER AFTER A REFRESHING RESPITE AT STEDDING SHANGTAI!

 

Aviendha finds something important in her second trip to the rings.  Don't know what tho, gotta work that out.

 

Elayne will also provide Mat with some clue accidentally about defeating Finns.

[Sharaman]

Courage to strengthen, Fire to Blind, Music to Dazzle, Iron to Bind.

Maybe some Sex to Escape as well if Moiraine and Thom are happy to see each other again?

 

[jemron]

Hopefully bonding, not sex.  At least, not on screen.  That's not RJ's style, which is one of the reasons I like this series so much.

[linkgoron]

I wonder if Aviendha's ability in sensing Ter'angreal abilities will help Rand find out what Callandor can do, aside from being a Sa'Angreal.

Is it stated anywhere that Callandor is more than a sa'angreal??What makes you think it will have any other purpose?

Sorry about being late with my reply. I forgot about this. Anyway,

 

This is from chapter 48 Reading the Commentary:

(Min to Cadsuane) "This is still Wrong. There's more here. Something we haven't discovered."

"About Callandor?" Cadsuane asked.

Min Nodded.

"I suspect so as well," Cadsuane replied "But I haven't been able to determine what".

 

The question is: is there something to find about how to use Callandor, or does Callandor have more abilities (maybe it's a Ter'Angreal) than we know. It could also refer to the special material that Callandor is made from (for example it can counter balefire, maybe it can do other things) etc.

[aunt_pol]

what else can king Arthur's sword do? or any other mythical swords? A twisted version of some archetype or other is my guess...

[Firebird]

One thing I doubt, that I've seen people say over and over is Egwene linking the WT and the BT.  Like it's her place to do so.  If the Aes Sedai and Asha'man are linked, it is -not- going to be merely Egwene that does it.  To be honest, I think it'll be a hard sell to have it happen at all, she has all the Aes Sedai arrogance in that respect -- see, even in tGS her talk about how Rand has to be controlled by Aes Sedai and so on.

I agree Eleint. There's been a few thousand years of bad blood between male and female channellers and if that disappears overnight because Egwene said so, I'll throw my books out of the window! (OK I do realise there has been some giving of ground where AS and Asha'man have bonded each other, but on the whole there seems to be deep distrust). Maybe Rand (or Logain) will take the initiative here. Though, if I were an Asha'man, I'm not entirely sure that I'd want to be connected to the schemers in the White Tower.

 

Egghead may never have gone through the AS test, but she definitely has the arrogance part nailed.

[randfandom]

I agree Eleint. There's been a few thousand years of bad blood between male and female channellers and if that disappears overnight because Egwene said so, I'll throw my books out of the window! (OK I do realise there has been some giving of ground where AS and Asha'man have bonded each other, but on the whole there seems to be deep distrust). Maybe Rand (or Logain) will take the initiative here. Though, if I were an Asha'man, I'm not entirely sure that I'd want to be connected to the schemers in the White Tower.

 

Egghead may never have gone through the AS test, but she definitely has the arrogance part nailed.

 

Well, Nicola's foretelling suggests that they won't be unified but be on equal footing "the guardians balance the servants". An aliance of equals seems more likely.

 

It may not be as hard as you may think though, especially if the BT will be destroyed by the cleansing of the darkfriend Ashaman as seems likely. If Logain is the new leader, he is far more positively disposed towards Aes Sedai. He spent many months with them, was Healed by them and Egwene let him go free. He has two Aes Sedai bonded to him which, paradoxically, makes him treat all Aes Sedai in a much more positive light than before. Perhaps because he sees them as humans rather than adversaries.

 

Likewise Egwene is far more experienced dealing with male channelers than most Aes Sedai are, because of her long association with Rand.

 

And both organizations face a mortal enemy in the Seanchan, who want to enslave all Aes Sedai and execute all Ashaman. Nothing like a common threat to bring former enemies together...

 

[alfie949]

Brandon posted to Twitter:

 

"Paul Postuma, I named a door after you in ToM."

 

Does this suggest Tower of Ghenjei to anyone else?

 

I can't think of any other doors that would be important enough to have a name.

[Mr Ares]

-I personally think he is in Seachan. The empire there is in chaos. The empress is dead, and there is a whole empire ready for the taking. I would not be surprised if he is assembling a huge army in Towers of Midnight and is getting ready to transport them to randland.

The whole place being in chaos, with a fifty sided civil war, would seem to indicate he isn't there.

- I don’t think her bond with Lan was severed.

It was, whther you believe it or not. It was set to transfer upon her death, death being something that breaks the bond. Lan has all the effects of someone whose bond has snapped, and he isn't bonded to Moiraine anymore.

I believe it was just transferred once the connection between finnland and randland was broken

Why? Why not go with the evidence in the books?

I do believe they got their wishes

Why? What would the Eelfinn gain through trading that they couldn't just take?

- Olver (WHO IS NOT CAIN), will play a significant role. I think he is the third man. In the books Mat keeps saying that does not think Olver is nine. So I think he is prob in his teens and really short and ugly. (I know this is a farfetched idea,  but I think is plausible)

Why do you think him probably in his teens? Mat thinks he is younger than he claims. If he's already small for his claimed age, to be a teenager he would have to be a bloody midget. Why not Naol as the third man, as he already agreed to go?

- Her and casuade will go at it, and nyaneave  and min will said with moiraine.

Why will they go at it?

- Her power is lower, obviously. Why is this? It is just because when you are reincarnated, you lose some of your strength.

No. As near as can be determined, Moridin, Osan'gar and Aran'gar are all exactly the same strength. Her reduced strength causes some of the Chosen to doubt that Cyndane is Lanfear. We are given no indication that the loss of strength is anything other than unique to her. Osan'gar is disappointed by his rather unimpressive body. After all, would you want to come back as a fat, middle-aged man?

I think the Prince of the Ravens title gives him control over the Seachan army

Why? Considering that Mat said that the Seanchan Empire was his enemy, this seems implausible. He became Prince of Ravens through marriage. The Seanchan generally promote on merit, and have a military culture quite different to the Westlands. There it would be reasonable to give someone seniority based on something silly like birth, but that seems atypical of the Seanchan. They would give it t the best man (or woman) for the job. Thus it is unlikely to be automatic grant to anyone, regardless of birth or marriage. If Mat gets it, it will be because he's that damn good, not because he is Prince of Ravens.

and because of this Tuon will be “bound” to help Rand.

That makes no sense at all. Mat does not bind Fortuona to Rand by virtue of his existence.

- He will meet with Egwene, know her anger, and tell her to do as she wishes with the black tower.

Why? Why give the BT to Egwene? Seems counter-productive and out of character.

 

Brandon posted to Twitter:

 

"Paul Postuma, I named a door after you in ToM."

 

Does this suggest Tower of Ghenjei to anyone else?

 

I can't think of any other doors that would be important enough to have a name.

Does Paul seem like a silly name for a door to anyone else?

[emyali]

 

Mat saves Moiraine in Finnland.  Courage to strengthen, Fire to Blind, Music to Dazzle Iron to Bind.  I think we all know Thom will take care of the music and so that leaves fire iron and courage.  These are the things i want to figure out.

 

 

maybe Aludra's sticks will take care of the fire thing

courage  8) Matt, Thom and Noal, even Olver none of them lack that

 

its the Iron that kind of hard to figure out

[emyali]

- Olver (WHO IS NOT CAIN), will play a significant role. I think he is the third man. In the books Mat keeps saying that does not think Olver is nine. So I think he is prob in his teens and really short and ugly. (I know this is a farfetched idea,  but I think is plausible)

Why do you think him probably in his teens? Mat thinks he is younger than he claims. If he's already small for his claimed age, to be a teenager he would have to be a bloody midget. Why not Naol as the third man, as he already agreed to go?

 

 

 

 

why not to think of Olver as a 4th

for the only way to win in Snake and Foxes is to break all rules.. right?

 

maybe Olver will sneak to the tower (without their knowing) .. Moiraine didnt remember all the future alternatives she've seen.. or maybe the fact that none will know about his existence in the tower is why she didnt see him..

 

 

mmm

after another thought .. i'd probably disagree with myself  ::) what Olver could do alone in the tower!!