Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[MatrixM]

Wasn't it just one Myrddraal with 13 Black Ajah?

[Mr Ares]

At some point in these next two volumes I believe we are going to see the "13 BA/13 Mydraal turning" phenomenon as a major plot device. Didn't Brandon state in one of the recent interviews that something is going to happen that's never really talked about on these boards but should be remembered? It seems like this phenomenon is something no one ever really considers anymore as it hasn't been mentioned since the earlier books.

 

Any thoughts on that?

Debate on the 13/13 thing does crop up fairly often. Taim is frequently suggested as a victim.

 

Wasn't it just one Myrddraal with 13 Black Ajah?

No, 13 of each.

 

Demandred

is not Taim, although I would really like him to be.

He is not in Shara. Crucify me for that if you like, but it simply does not make sense to introduce the Sharans NOW. The last two books are going to be long enough without bringing in a completly new people.

He is not Roedran. We've had that PoV, and why wouldn't we have gotten a single clue?

He may be with the borderlanders. Maybe.

I still think it is more likely he is in Seandar. After all, Semirhage was a part of the invasion, not of the home base.

We haven't had a Roedran POV. We've not even seen him. As for Demandred's POV, we haven't had any clues in that, one way or the other. I agree on Shara, it's a bit too late to introduce it. I don't think he's with the Seanchan. They're in chaos. The Imperial family was murdered, there are numerous factions vying for the throne. Doesn't seem likely to me that he's going to come in, bring order, secure his rule, over a fifty-sided civil war in what, a few weeks? A month or so? I think it's just too chaotic to sort out before the end of the series.

[charis sedai]

OH! I got Roedran confused with Rodel Ituralde- my apologies. I think he's dead. Which I suppose, could mean Demandred is dead.

[coteaz]

lol demandred isn't dead.

[FanoLan]

Hope this is an appropriate thread for discussing impending fulfillment of prophecy.  Specifically, I think the following from the KC merits another looks after tGS:

 

"The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign.1

The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen.2

Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom.3

What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up.4

Order burns to clear his path."5

 

Line 1 has been discussed, and has likely been fulfilled as of Dumai's Wells according to the wisdom of the majority.  I am not 100% convinced of the argument, and will have to RAFO for complete certainty.  For this post, rather than rehash that debate, I want to focus on lines 2-5.

 

2: "The seas rage" - likely reflected in the discussion with Harine re: the relatively long time the AM ships have needed to reach Bandar Eban with food.

 

2: "...and stormclouds gather unseen." - I used to think this referenced the Shadow, and preparations for TG at SG and in the Blight.  Now, it seems this references the Seanchan and plans for the Corenne(sp?).

 

3: "Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell" - In Seanchan seems obvious now but what hidden fires? I think the next part clarifies.

 

3: "and serpents nestle in the bosom" - very key part, this.  Serpents, as in more than one.  The first serpent - Semirhage.  So what (again please note the plural) hidden fires?  The plans of the serpents nestled in the bosom of the Seanchan.  I used to think this part meant serpents close to Rand, as in a clause completely distinct from the first part of this line "Beyond the horizon."  So who is the second serpent and what other plans are swelling?  Maybe another option for Demandred since Seanchan is big enough to warrant the attention of two Foresaken.  Makes me think of Galgan.  Note the "rule is secure" line does not necessarily implicate a head of state, it could also mean being in charge of the army or leadership of another distinct group as would also be required in any argument about the BT as Dem's location.

 

4: "Exalted/cast down" - fruition of the undermining Seanchan plan.  the Sul'dam will be cast down from their positions of prestige and viewed as the slaveowner enforcers they have been for year.  The damane will be released from their bondage and instrumental to the Light's victory in the actual battles part of TG.

 

5: "Order burns to clear his path." - the readers have been hammered over the head with the "orderliness" of the Seanchan and particularly in tGS with the difference to the lands under Rand's rule.  I think the Seanchan will succeed in taking Arad Doman and we'll see Randland essentially divided to reflect the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai with Andor at the center and the Seanchan controlling the white/saidar area and Rand the black/saidin.  After Rand concludes the next part of his story, he will then return his attention to the Seanchan and this will coincide with the sul'dam/damane reveal.  Rand will then reach an accord which brings the Seanchan under the banner of light in order to proceed on his path to TG.

 

 

Looking forward to reactions/responses/reasoned arguments against.

[blackjon]

my money on the plot device that is going to be immense in the net book is either vaccuoles or Alanna's bond. vaccuoles is my bet one...

[jemron]

I have to admit, while it would be hard for me, it would be WAY cool for the story if one of the main characters (one of the ta'veren or one of the super girls) was turned to the dark side by 13/13.

 

Imagine if, after all that work, Egwene gets turned!  That would be saweet!

[Sentinel78]

I have to admit, while it would be hard for me, it would be WAY cool for the story if one of the main characters (one of the ta'veren or one of the super girls) was turned to the dark side by 13/13.

 

Imagine if, after all that work, Egwene gets turned!  That would be saweet!

 

I just want to see a before/after of forcing someone to the Shadow on anybody, main character or not.  It seems like compulsion but compulsion is about a million times easier to use on somebody.  I know compulsion has its limitations (e.g., Morgase broke through her compulsion mostly, etc.), and maybe it's just that those don't apply when you force someone to the Shadow.  It'd be interesting to see though.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Supposedly, the 13/13 trick makes your character a near mirror image of itself.  What you loved you hate.  What you honored you despise.  What you hated you now love.  What was true becomes false and what was false becomes true.

[fisher80]

I think the Borderlanders is another option, though I do like the idea about King Roedran. Shara just seems pointless, Demandred wants in the game even though he's been keeping out from Rand's notice I am sure that man wants to best Lews Therin. My vote is still with the Borderlanders 200,000 soldiers plus 13 AS away from the Border just seems too perfect a Forsaken plot for it not to be one.

 

isnt fain with the stupid borderlanders in far madding?  corrupting them?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Far Madding was the last place we saw Fain, but we have no idea where he is now.

[Sentinel78]

isnt fain with the stupid borderlanders in far madding?  corrupting them?

 

I really doubt Agelmar Jagad, who is with those Borderlanders, is going to forget Fain. Fain was personally introduced to Jagad in Book I Chpt 46, and Jagad dismissed him a madman.  In the Great Hunt, Fain was freed by Trollocs and Myrddraal and stole the Horn of Valere.

 

Or Hurin for that matter, who could literally smell Fain's stink about 10 miles away.  If I were Rand, I'd tell Hurin that Fain was last seen in Far Madding and give him 2 Ashaman and 20 Aiel and tell him to drag that bastard down.

[Shmuel Goldberg]

Hello, first post.

 

I just finished the book. I have so many questions and ideas. Which threads should I read first?

[miker]

I've read through some of the pages in this thread if not all...  Anyways here are some other things I noticed while reading through a list of Min's viewings from earlier books of things that might happen in Towers of Midnight:

 

Perrin has an image of a broken crown and of trees flowering around him.

-Does Perrin have some role in making things grow again?  Broken Crown seems to point towards dealing with the Borderlanders.  Interesting that the broken crown viewing was well before the falcon and hawk viewing.

 

Mat has an eye on a balance and a laughing face.

-Not sure, I know someone earlier mentioned Mat's eye in connection with making a deal with the snakes and foxes.

 

Rand has an image of a beggar's staff.

-These first few are all from very early, so it might have happened already.  No idea here...

 

Elayne has an image of a severed hand, not hers.

-When I reread that I thought of Rand getting his own Luke Skywalker-like ter'angreal hand.

 

Perrin has to be there twice to save Rand.

-Obviously Dumai's Wells is one, has the other happened?  The other could of course be the Last Battle and therefore not in ToM.

 

Something dark around Davram Bashere.

-Not sure where this could go, but I don't remember Bashere having done anything yet to meet the viewing.

 

(The viewings with references to where they happen: http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/viewings.html)

 

 

[Sentinel78]

Something dark around Davram Bashere.

-Not sure where this could go, but I don't remember Bashere having done anything yet to meet the viewing.

 

Some people think this means Bashere is Demandred, probably right after he killed Asmodean (I say this to sound ridiculous, although Bashere shows up about 1 page before Asmo dies in FoH). 

 

It probably means Bashere is going to die, and Tenobia too, to make way for Perrin to have some kind of Borderland noble rank related to the Broken Crown, like King of Saldaea.

[RenaldFanwar]

First post,so bear with me if its already been mentioned before

Couldn't the broken crown be in reference to Prrin's right to the old/broken kingdom of Manetheren?

Also, the need to re-grow most of the world's vegetation would point to someone actualy discovering a way to bring back the Nyms,wouldn't it? I for one will love Aviendha's Crystal Column journey if it leads to the "Song" or the AOL technique for creating Nyms.

Another event that could change the future, imo will be if Loial convince the Great Stump to open the Book Of Translation, but instead of fleeing, try to gather help from those worlds too. I vaguely recall reading in one of the books that if DO is bound in one world HE is bound in all, and vice versa.

[yosoyeljosh]

First post,so bear with me if its already been mentioned before

Couldn't the broken crown be in reference to Prrin's right to the old/broken kingdom of Manetheren?

Also, the need to re-grow most of the world's vegetation would point to someone actualy discovering a way to bring back the Nyms,wouldn't it? I for one will love Aviendha's Crystal Column journey if it leads to the "Song" or the AOL technique for creating Nyms.

Another event that could change the future, imo will be if Loial convince the Great Stump to open the Book Of Translation, but instead of fleeing, try to gather help from those worlds too. I vaguely recall reading in one of the books that if DO is bound in one world HE is bound in all, and vice versa.

 

Well, the Broken Crown is the name of the Saldaea's crown.  It's possible he'll also be king of old Manatheran, in which case, he'll have a rather impressive collection of kingdoms running down the Mountains of Mist, taking a bit of wester Andor and Ghealdan.

 

I know we haven't seen the glass columns through female eyes, but I'm not sure why Aviendha would know what the singing means anymore than other Wise Ones.  The Aiel won't make contact with the Tuatha'an, so they may not be fully aware of what the song has become.  It's possible she'll see the Talisman of Growing used, and this will teach her its purpose, but as she doesn't have the Talent, it would be of no use to her.  Somehow, she would need to realize she needs to give it to the Ogier.  Even the Tuatha'an don't recognize the song anymore.

 

I wonder if there's some sort of Ogier homeworld, or if the whole race would travel.  If they did, would the Deathwatch Garderners leave as well?  Or are they all required to be at the Book?

[Sentinel78]

Well, the Broken Crown is the name of the Saldaea's crown

 

I've always kind of assumed that, but is that explicitly stated anywhere?

[elec1cele]

Well, the Broken Crown is the name of the Saldaea's crown

 

I've always kind of assumed that, but is that explicitly stated anywhere?

 

I am pretty sure that it is talked about when Perrin meets Bashere.

[Sentinel78]

In LoC, all Bashere says in his meeting with Perrin about the Broken Crown is this, and then Perrin changes the subject:

 

Bashere filled the cups and thrust one at Perrin, gesturing peremptorily to one of the chairs. He wore a smile behind his mustaches, but eyes and smile could have belonged to two different men. The eyes could have driven nails. "I suppose Zarine told you all about my estates before you.... married her. All about the Broken Crown. She was always talkative as a girl."

 

The man remained standing, so Perrin did as well. Broken crown? Faile had certainly never mentioned any broken crown.

 

Perrin later asks Faile about it, but she dodges the subject:

 

Maybe he should change the subject. What was that Bashere had mentioned? "Faile, what is a broken crown?" He was sure that had been it.

 

She made a vexed noise, and suddenly began to smell upset. "Rand is gone from the Palace, Perrin."

 

 

Yes, it's most likely implying Saldean crown, but not explicitly stated. 

[Sentinel78]

Ok, I found the actual reference from Bashere's POV in Crossroads of Twilight

 

In all truth, Tenobia did worry him. The Light only knew why Easar and the others had decided to leave the Blightborder together, much less strip away as many soldiers as hearsay said they had brought south. Even hearsay divided by half. Doubtless they had reasons they considered good and sufficient, and doubtless Tenobia shared them. But he knew her; he had taught her to ride, watched her grow up, presented her the Broken Crown when she took the throne.

[analyticalkeys]

Something dark around Davram Bashere.

-Not sure where this could go, but I don't remember Bashere having done anything yet to meet the viewing.

 

Some people think this means Bashere is Demandred, probably right after he killed Asmodean (I say this to sound ridiculous, although Bashere shows up about 1 page before Asmo dies in FoH). 

 

It probably means Bashere is going to die, and Tenobia too, to make way for Perrin to have some kind of Borderland noble rank related to the Broken Crown, like King of Saldaea.

 

RJ said after the 9th book that we have NOT seen Demandred's alter-ego yet, meaning Bashere is not Demandred.

[Sentinel78]

RJ said after the 9th book that we have NOT seen Demandred's alter-ego yet, meaning Bashere is not Demandred.

 

I know, I referred to that as a pretty ridiculous idea.  We've also had Bashere's POV and know that Bashere is just Bashere.

[Mr Ares]

Couldn't the broken crown be in reference to Prrin's right to the old/broken kingdom of Manetheren?

Not really, as Perrin gave up his claim to Manetheren in KoD, so he has no right to it.

[wumpus]

Has anyone considered the possibility one of the characters seen prior to asmo's death was killed and replaced by Demandred after - e.g. We didn't see an alter-ego we saw the real person before asmo's death and after we saw a replacement.