How would the world be different if Saidar was tainted instead of Saidin?

[Arkelias]

When Lews Therin sealed the bore the Dark One's counterstroke tainted the male half of the source, and led to the breaking of the world.  How do you think things would have been different if Saidar had been tainted instead?

 

What if the women went mad and broke the world leaving male Aes Sedai behind?  Would the shadow have triumphed by now?  Would their still be Ajahs, and if so would there be a red that hunted down women?  Would the three oaths have been created?  Would the battle with Artur Hawkwing have gone the same?

 

I'm a little bored at work and was curious as to what people think!

[Thorum]

Things would have gone quite the same.

 

Aes Sedai would be a bit stronger (and male), and the matriarchal spirit in Randland wouldn't be there, but for the rest there would be not much change.

[Mr. Dragon]

I think that it would be significantly different. Due to their much greater strength, I think the male AS would have much greater success in hunting down the female AS and stilling them so the breaking would not be nearly as catastrophic.

[Arkelias]

They'd lose things like linking, though.  Can you gentle a woman without a circle?  Actually I guess if they had strong enough males they could still pull it off.

 

What would really be interesting is if the Dragon Reborn was a woman, destined to cleanse the female half of the source.  I wonder what tone that would have given the series?

 

In all those 'could have been' worlds out there I wonder if one of them is like this?

[Mighty Chin]

I think everything would be significantly changed, especially in the way male and females seem to interact.

 

I think the Women would be considered more second class and be treated less than men. As it stands now almost all of the women in WOT have a slight disdain for men and I think that has to do with the Breaking of the World.

[Mr. Dragon]

They'd lose things like linking, though.  Can you gentle a woman without a circle?  Actually I guess if they had strong enough males they could still pull it off.

 

Take Rand for example, at Dumai Wells when he breaks his sheild, he accidentally stilled several women at one time. While women would generally need to go around in groups to safely gentle men, the men would have more success individually and so greater numbers of women could be dealt with.

[Toy and Minion]

The men would have never made the three oaths, IMO.  And Tar Valon probably would have had much much more territory, if they didn't rule the entire land.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

There would almost certainly have been a much more Militaristic Black Tower instead of the more negotiative/manipulative White Tower, though at least there wouldn't have been a Dragons Fang to scrawl in charcoal...

[Toy and Minion]

Yeah, it would be the Dragons Tear.

 

I think I know why Jordan went with Saidin being tainted. >.>

[42Bonzo88]

    I wonder if stilling wouldn't be the answer because you see how the One Power has been dwindling over the last few decades until Rand makes his proclamation. My question is instead of killing would they have came up with something similar to the Ad'am? I am not for the Ad'am in any way, but it makes me wonder.

[Blackhoof]

I don't think that an a'dam would make a difference; they would still go mad, and the madness may start leaking into you...

 

But i know two of the reasons saidin was tainted; one: to give the series a difference from the standard male magic user, and two: because it is harder to pity men than it is women. With men, who are generally more aggressive, and have been more responsible for bad things, like murder and wars (come on, you know its true, how many women rapists and murderers are there out there compared to male ones?) With women, you wouldn't be able to help but pity them, and maybe the men would have had noble notions about the women, and they may have been kinder because they were women. Men would be above women, like it was in our world. But maybe the breaking wouldn't have happened, or been as bad.

[Arkelias]

Oh I definitely think he made the right choice in tainting Saidin!  I was mostly just curious as to how it might have been different.  Great responses, by the way.

[nnokwoodeye]

There would almost certainly have been a much more Militaristic Black Tower instead of the more negotiative/manipulative White Tower, though at least there wouldn't have been a Dragons Fang to scrawl in charcoal...

 

Not necessarily. War is not a gender thing. The aes sedai in seanchan (before the empire) were very militaristic. They constantly fought one another for territory.

 

As for how crazy women would have affected the gender politics, I am not sure. It wouldn't have changed the fact that women are feared. Yes, they would not have the enormous political power of the white tower behind them, but men would still think of them as walking time bombs. They did break the world after all...

[ROB_88]

in wonder how that would turn out once a month.

crasy women with The Power on PMS

nasty stuff

[Mr Ares]

crasy women

There's another sort?

[pxnsolid]

all women are crazy, you just have to keep in mind its not their fault, and you can deal with it better.

[Mr. Micawber]

It's been pretty explicitly stated that the vast majority of important works with the Power require linking of some kind.

 

Without linking, you can't have the Stone, you can't have the kind of protections that Callandor got, hell, you can't have a Black Tower anything like the White Tower.

 

Moreover, it was also stated by RJ that Rand could only really force his way through the shield because half of it was tied off. And that as long as the linked women were stronger than, say, Morgase, thirteen women could smother any man like you or I squash a fly.

 

It would have been *far* more difficult to stop the Breaking, because the men would have had to fight individually. In a duel, they'd come out on top, but my guess is that those crazed females would have still linked up, and thus could take down their male opponents the way a Hong Kong Kung Fu movie protagonist defeats his opponents - by destroying each in detail, while the opponents are incapable of working together.

 

The fact is, the Female side of the Force is far, far stronger than the Male side collectively; Saidin's only more powerful on the individual level.

 

The entire point of the Breaking is that you had, essentially, a hundred million jackhammers out there, instead of, say, the USSR's or the US's 1983 era nuclear stockpile. Fewer in absolute numbers, but capable of destruction on an entirely different scale.

 

Note: Obviously, neither jackhammers nor even B61 gravity bombs approach the devastation a really powerful male channeler could wreak. But the point is that a circle of thirteen powerful female channelers would make what that guy did look pretty small in comparison.

[IsThisNameTakenAlready]

Keep in mind that the shield on Rand was several individual weaves not a circle.  If I recall, that is the way it has to be by Tower law/custom.  Hence, the same would be possible with men capturing a woman.

[Mr. Micawber]

Keep in mind that the shield on Rand was several individual weaves not a circle.  If I recall, that is the way it has to be by Tower law/custom.  Hence, the same would be possible with men capturing a woman.

 

That's cause in linking, only the one who controls the flows gets to decide when to release the link, and the entire thing goes at once.

 

I imagine that's not the most efficient way of guarding somebody, since if somebody's gotta go, or is feeling tired or sick or whatever, they'd not have the option of passing the shield to another person.

 

But I wasn't really focused on shielding, I was talking principally about severing. And a circle of thirteen of the weakest Aes Sedai in the Tower could take out and sever a channeler of Rand or Elan Morin's strength without breaking a sweat. That's confirmed by testimony from the series, and by the BBWBA.

 

Moreover, the *official* Tower policy for gentling/stilling is for a circle of thirteen to perform the deed.

 

That's why Rand and LTT always get freaked out whenever they're around thirteen or more channeling women they can't control. Because they know they'd get defeated at least 9 times out of 10.

[IsThisNameTakenAlready]

Keep in mind that the shield on Rand was several individual weaves not a circle.  If I recall, that is the way it has to be by Tower law/custom.  Hence, the same would be possible with men capturing a woman.

 

That's cause in linking, only the one who controls the flows gets to decide when to release the link, and the entire thing goes at once.

 

I imagine that's not the most efficient way of guarding somebody, since if somebody's gotta go, or is feeling tired or sick or whatever, they'd not have the option of passing the shield to another person.

 

But I wasn't really focused on shielding, I was talking principally about severing. And a circle of thirteen of the weakest Aes Sedai in the Tower could take out and sever a channeler of Rand or Elan Morin's strength without breaking a sweat. That's confirmed by testimony from the series, and by the BBWBA.

 

Moreover, the *official* Tower policy for gentling/stilling is for a circle of thirteen to perform the deed.

 

That's why Rand and LTT always get freaked out whenever they're around thirteen or more channeling women they can't control. Because they know they'd get defeated at least 9 times out of 10.

 

True, but 13 unlinked would be just as bad as 13 linked.  That is, assuming the actual severing from the source is not power intensive, a shielded person could be severed by the weakest novice/solder.  Is there any statement that would suggest you cannot sever a channeler if someone else holds a shield on them?

 

If you MUST hold the shield on them, then yes, men are in trouble since it would take the strongest men to actually sever a female but any group of men could run around doing group shields and either: A) kill the woman (hey, shes crazy and going to kill everyone if the don't) B) knock her unconscious and then sever her link to the OP.  Either way, it's just a new set of customs and laws.

[Kaznen]

When thirteen women link together it is not hte same as when  a man and woman link together.  The things that would have been done by the women AS post breaking could have been done by the men acting alone, men have more raw power which is the only thing that women linking together accomplishes.

 

And how would the men know if the women went crazy? ;D

[Al Thor93]

Since men have a history of being more reckless-guys you know this to be true- I don't feel that the shadow would be defeated. Quite the opposite actually. I think that the shadow would cover the land because the men would have made some small but very important mistake because they didn't think it through.

On the other hand. I think that the Aes Sedai would wait way too long and so set the shadow on the world.

Also, I don't think that the men would create Ajahs or have oaths just because they would want to have as large of army as possible and need the women to pass the trait on.

[Arkelias]

You know I'm not seeing a ton of female responses to this thread.  The replies thus far have been great.  A lot of interesting perspectives on how things might have been different.  Thanks for humoring me!

[mb]

What would really be interesting is if the Dragon Reborn was a woman, destined to cleanse the female half of the source.

All rebirths I take are of the same gender as their original (at least with Heroes).

 

Not sure if the Dark One would make the same counterstrike if just women sealed the Bore.

 

Though if saidar was tainted instead, a number of prophecies might not have been prophesied.  Primarily the ones about White Tower.

 

[Rinkai]

Wile Female AS don't birth many children, I think male AS would father A LOT of bastards. So maybe there would be more people with the spark.