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Mashiara Sedai

Rand kneeling before the crystal throne...

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The only way i can see Rand Kneeling would be as a gentllmanly gesture towards Tuon maybe even cupping her hands when they first meet  ???, other than that i realy cant see Rand Kneeling/Bowing to anyone.

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sorry, didn't read the thread, but I can say that the Seanchan version of the prophecies was corrupted.  Not sure where it's said, but it is said somewhere.

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Agreed.  Someone brought up the example of the Aiel, but Rand made a mistake there.  He had almost no experience with the complexities of Aiel culture, and he just said the wrong part of the ritual.  And showing respect to rulers does not include kneeling - that would be dangerously close to an acknowledgement of their supremacy.  It's not Rand's intentions that would matter, in this case, it's the interpretations of the rulers.
I doubt he made a mistake. He had just watched Rhuarc and Couladin go through the ritual, and was getting lectured by Avi right beforehand I'm sure. I'm pretty sure he did it purposely.

 

As for the kneeling, it seems more a "home court" thing for me. More respect is shown among equals when one is on the others home turf. That being said kneeling is a bit much. I think one reason why I could see it happening is because it would be something most of us don't expect. The prophecies are corrupt, and Rand don't kneel for no one...which is why I can see it as a setup for everyone to write off and then...surprise! There is another possibility, although I don't know how it could happen. If Rand IS somehow presented in front of the throne, its effects may cause him to kneel involuntarily, before he can counter it (if he can). But I don't know how he would even get in front of it,  since its over there. But there is one they took from Rhuidean which we don't know the effects of.

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I thought about this and I think it relates to the fact that Rand will learn to cry again. However because this part of the Prophecy is falsified I think he'll just find a way around it, but other than that I could only see it as a part of him learning to be human again.

I think he will cry when he believes that Min is dead, which hopefully he will be mistaken in this despite what the bond might be telling him.  Min is my favorite of all the woman in the series.  I do hope she survives to raise children of Rand.

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The Seanchan prophesies are "corrupted", not rewritten altogether.  We don't know what was there originally and what wasn't becuase none of us have read the entire Randland prophesies.  Rand has.  If he interprets them to mean anything about him having to kneel to achieve success, he will kneel. 

 

All the Two River's women talk about how there is a delicate way to get them men there to do somthing.  We all know they are notoriously stubborn.  Rand more than most.  But, there is a way to get him to do things; make him think it was his idea all along or get him to see your side. 

 

He has knelt to both Morgase and Suian as the Amrillin (he used the Boarderlord forms for that IIRC); of course, that was early on, he was not nearly so full of himself at that point and didn't know what he was yet. 

 

The Seanchan prophesies said something to the effect of 'The Dragon Reborn must kneel to the Crystal Throne.'  It didn't say the 'Daughter of the Nine Moons'.  As so many people here have mentioned, the Crystal Throne is very far away and it's unlikely that Rand will go there for that, or any other purpose.  I think that the wording is important.  If it were going to be the Daughter of the Nine Moons as a representitive of the Crystal Throne, it would have said that.  As someone mentioned, there are 50 or so factions feuding over the Crystal Throne in Seanchan currently.  Tuan hasn't gone there to make her claim to it, so she can't be considered representitive. 

 

Taken together, I don't think he will kneel to the Crystal Throne.  AS so many have said 'he's not the kneeling type'.  I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that he'd kneel to Tuon or Matt if he thought that he needed to in order to achieve someting important. 

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Maybe Rand will be trying to reach saidin when he meets Tuon, gets overcome with feeling sick and collapses to his knees *shrugs* job done

 

I would go wtf and lol at the same time if that happened.

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OH,or maybee he will first meet her while disquised as the beggar (or however that will come to be); he won't want to give up his disquise, so he kneels to her...thus fufilling the Seanchan prophesy.

 

I just though of that while reading the last 2 posts.

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1) Have you seen anyone in Seanchan bow to each other?  (Honest question)  It's been a little while, but I don't remember it.  Yes, Seanchan society is partly based on ancient Chinese and Japanese cultures (more on China) but you can't just make inferences the other way around.

In WH, Chapter 14, "What A Veil Hides", Tuon has shamed herself and wears a veil to indicate this.  The Blood that are on the ship with her see that she is wearing a veil and is therefore only the High Lady Tuon today, not the Daughter of the Nine Moons.  Rather than prostrate themselves, they bow to her as equals.  The exact quote is, "Prepared for prostration, the Blood made slight bows instead, one equal to another, when they saw her veil." (Winter's Heart, p. 326, James O. Rigney).

 

Safe to agree that at the very, very, very (and I can't stress this enough) least, Rand and Tuon are equals.

 

No. One knee is not a sign of equality. And Rand is not the kneeling type, one knee or two.

 

(Note: Please read this as though it were dripping with condescension) I didn't say that one knee meant equality, it means RESPECT, but that it is maybe something that would be done among equals to show RESPECT.  It would be what Randlanders call "making a leg". 

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I think the Seanchan know, at least the intelligent ones, the ones who've faced him and survived do, that Rand can kick their butts any time he takes a mind to. Rand knows this as well. What they have left of their damane (a boatload were killed by Avi) are no match for the Ashaman combined with Rand's tactics and traveling.. They simply are not. And Mat can outwit them too, and will if pushed to it. I don't think any of that is going to happen though.

 

Prophecy isn't literal, not in RL not in Randland. RJ had said it many times and its been said in the books dozens of times. Bowing to the Crystal can mean almost anything. If Rand makes a deal with Tuon, recognizing her primacy over the lands they have control over already for instance that could count as "bowing" or even kneeling, what with the corruption of their prophecies.  Rand will not literally kneel. Fall, maybe. Thats a possibility certainly.

 

Rand might make a leg, to accomplish his aims. But Tuon will end up eating crow, NOT an equal. Like all the rest of the rulers of those lands. The Borderland rulers? Phhhhhhtt.. who cares. So they have 13 or so invisible AS who are scared spitless to show their muggs. They are no problem, except to get them to fight at TG. And if they're hangin' with the Borderland crowd that's not going to be a problem. Those are just minor housekeeping issues so far as the story goes.

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They're equal in the same way that the President of the U.S. and the PM of the U.K. are equals.  Both are the leaders of powerful nations that shape the course of the world.  Rand and Tuon control equal parts of the Westlands and there's about to be a huge shakeup within the Asha'man.  Also, (and I may be wrong) didn't the Seanchan make a whole mess of Shaido Wise Ones damane after the Battle of Malden?

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They did...sort of. It was the forkroot that did that. But IIRC most of the Wise Ones survived and are returning to the Aiel Waste with Galina. Not sure if Sevanna survived...

 

In any case, Rand and Tuon are most definitely not equals. Tuon's hold on the Seanchan controlled lands is wobbly at best. Tarabon and Altara do not whole-heartedly support the Seanchan so they will not willing fight for her. Plus, her back-up (Seandar) is now non-existant, so there's nomore damane/troops coming in from there. Plus, unknown to Tuon, there's an attack on the Tower that's likely to fail weakening them further and last but not least, Rand has moved the Aiel and Legion to Arad Doman so that if the truce doesn't work out, the Seanchan are eliminated. So no, Rand and Tuon are not equals. Rands knows this and I suspect Tuon does too although she won't show it. Oh Rand and is not the kneeling/bowing/humble/respectful type as has been mentioned.

 

The beggar idea is good though. Don't know how that would come about though.

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Some pretty interesting ideas here, but a couple of things occur to me worth mentioning. 

 

I. The "Seanchan prophecies" did not originate separately from the Prophecies of the Dragon (ProD).  What the original post references, IIRC, is a section from the current Seanchan version of the original ProD (same as currently exists in Randland).  The "Seanchan prophecies" are still the ProD, just a version which has been corrupted by Ishamael's machinations in the time after Hawkwing's heirs left Randland. 

 

The books do not specify how much the ProD has been changed, how much is still the same.  We have seen a reference to Perrin (Wolfking) in the Seanchan version (SeVer) that reflects current events, but not a similar quote from ProD.    Other than the idea of Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne, nothing else from SeVer has been revealed (I think?) and neither have we seen the entire ProD. 

 

We do know that ProD mentions the DR "binding the Nine Moons" to himself.  It seems likely that this section was corrupted to the current SeVer "DR must kneel".  Which means the SeVer section is not a prerequisite for fulfillment of the ProD and ultimate triumph of the Light.  So, doesn't appear as a likely outcome to me.

 

If that is not the case, however, I would hope Rand has matured enough by the time he meets/deals with Tuon to do what needs to be done rather than being ruled by one/some of his rather childish qualities.  Take your pick - arrogance, pride, misplaced feeling he can stand alone/separate from the rest of humanity, anger, seeing people merely as tools, etc.

 

II. The Seanchan, under Tylee, had collared at least 200 Shaido Wise Ones when Perrin and Tylee met at the gates of the fortress at the close of the Shaido massacre.

 

III. From Suroth's PoV, we learned that she (and Semi) planned to seize the Throne as Empress when Elbar succeeded in finding/killing Tuon.  If Suroth could have potentially accomplished that without returning to Seanchan mainland, then Tuon certainly will.  Likely as soon as the mourning period for the dead Empress is over.

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No. One knee is not a sign of equality. And Rand is not the kneeling type, one knee or two.

 

(Note: Please read this as though it were dripping with condescension)

If you insist on sowing the winds, boy, don't complain when you reap the whirlwind.
I didn't say that one knee meant equality, it means RESPECT
Respect for someone above you. It is not something between equals, but something done to show ones inferiority. And Rand doesn't acknowledge anyone as his better, as anyone who had read the books should know, unless they were incredibly stupid. Are you?
but that it is maybe something that would be done among equals to show RESPECT.
And you are wrong, because it would be done to show ones respect to ones betters. It is a sign of deference.
It would be what Randlanders call "making a leg".
No it would not. That is a bow, not kneeling. Rand isn't really the bowing sort these days, either. Making a leg would also be a sign of deference, and Rand defers no no-one. If you took the time to think before posting, maybe learn what you were talking about, you might be able to say something worthwhile. Or at least make a condescending tone apparent through means other than bluntly saying "I'm being a condescending little turd".

 

I think the Seanchan know, at least the intelligent ones, the ones who've faced him and survived do, that Rand can kick their butts any time he takes a mind to.
Provided he's ready for a tough fight. He was losing in PoD, remember. He can win, if he brings enough soldiers.
What they have left of their damane (a boatload were killed by Avi) are no match for the Ashaman combined with Rand's tactics and traveling.
What they have left of their damane they consider sufficient to capture an AS stronghold. They are quite capable of giving the asha'man a run for their money, even if the asha'man have sufficient numbers and skill to make eventual victory certain.

 

But IIRC most of the Wise Ones survived and are returning to the Aiel Waste with Galina. Not sure if Sevanna survived...
Sevanna, and most of the channeling Wise Ones, were captured.

 

We have seen a reference to Perrin (Wolfking) in the Seanchan version (SeVer) that reflects current events, but not a similar quote from ProD.
Actually, we do. The version quoted to Perrin mentions giving up the axe for the hammer, which Verin has asked Perrin about.

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where was thereva captured, i do not recall any of that.  and the last time i checked, sevanna was with her.

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Honestly, i think people are reading too far into it. Theres loads of prophecies about, not all of them have to be fulfilled (albeit supposedly important ones).

 

I keep remembering something Rand said/thought. The prophecies said he was to control the (south and west, north and east, i cant remember) and he didn't need to control the other half to win. Perhaps he won't bow, but maybe he will concede that with tuon being married to taverien best friend matrim is good enough for him. He wanted Perrin to raise Manetherin (or hinted at it i think) and having Matrim play an important part of Seanchan without being directly involved is pretty nifty.

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In WH, Chapter 14, "What A Veil Hides", Tuon has shamed herself and wears a veil to indicate this.  The Blood that are on the ship with her see that she is wearing a veil and is therefore only the High Lady Tuon today, not the Daughter of the Nine Moons.  Rather than prostrate themselves, they bow to her as equals.  The exact quote is, "Prepared for prostration, the Blood made slight bows instead, one equal to another, when they saw her veil." (Winter's Heart, p. 326, James O. Rigney).

I stand corrected.

 

Safe to agree that at the very, very, very (and I can't stress this enough) least, Rand and Tuon are equals.

While I agree that they should be considered equals in terms of political power, I doubt they will see it that way.  And that's the problem, while Rand can admit that Tuon controls one of the most powerful forces at play, I think he will still see her as another leader who needs to submit to him for TG to be won.  And while Tuon respects the military might that Rand has, I think she will still see him as another marath'damane who needs to be controlled before he devastates the rest of the world.

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[Provided he's ready for a tough fight. He was losing in PoD, remember. He can win, if he brings enough soldiers.

 

No, he was not losing.  He won all of his battles, including the last one with the Callandor.  He just surrendered the momentum back to Seanchan when he returned back to Cairhien and did not make use of his victories over Seanchan.

 

The Seanchan's POVs made it clear that it was Rand who won the battles.

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The Seanchan's POVs made it clear that it was Rand who won the battles.
And Rand's PoVs? He used Callandor because he needed to, he was very reluctant to do so. So he was winning, then used the weapon he went out of his way to avoid using when he didn't have to? He had a force capable of stalling the Seanchan offensive, but not capable of retaking Ebou Dar or throwing the Seanchan back into the sea. When he tried the former, he was successful, when he pushed his luck and tried the latter, he wasn't. Callandor was in response to the Seanchan bringing up another army to stop him, he was outnumbered - losing. He ended up wrecking his own army along with theirs.

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Still a true general would not surrender the momentum that he fought so hard to gain.  He would find a way to press the momentum.  Witness General Meade surrendering the momentum when he let the bulk of the Confederate Army escape after the Battle of Gettysburg.  Then he had to fight a long hard battle with General Lee for the rest of the year before another general came along and pressed hard and made sure that he never lost the momentum.

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Still a true general would not surrender the momentum that he fought so hard to gain.  He would find a way to press the momentum.  Witness General Meade surrendering the momentum when he let the bulk of the Confederate Army escape after the Battle of Gettysburg.  Then he had to fight a long hard battle with General Lee for the rest of the year before another general came along and pressed hard and made sure that he never lost the momentum.

I wouldn't say he has any momentum going against them. He did have it when he drove them out of Illian but lost it when he tried to repeat this in Ebou Dar and fought to a stalemate.

 

 

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Still a true general would not surrender the momentum that he fought so hard to gain.
He'd already lost it. Squandered it with a futile offensive on Seanchan held lands.

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Maybe Rand will be trying to reach saidin when he meets Tuon, gets overcome with feeling sick and collapses to his knees *shrugs* job done

The more I've thought about this I think it is going to happen and it will be something along these lines. I can't think of one prophecy that has been fulfilled through a conscious attempt to do so. They always happen through some off the cuff action that is necessary at the time or through what seems like happenstance. There is never the "Behold!" moment, as we see Rand musing over at one point. It is exactly these type of events that become interpreted as prophecy fulfillment after the fact. Then as the story gets passed down through the generations the Behold! and lights from heaven, angels singing and all that get added in. I think he will kneel unintentionally in some way. Then he will get up and "bind the Nine Moons" to him.

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The Prophecy says Rand has to kneel to the Crystal Throne..i guess Tuon signifies the Crystal Throne but maybe if Rand kneels to Mat it might be enough....i really hope Rand doesnt have to kneel to anyone i would really hate that!!!!hope he blows Tuon away if she commands him to kneel..acc to me Tuon marrying Mat fulfills the 'binding the nine moons part'

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