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Mandragoran

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  1. That would again go back to the Healing in TDR. Past and Present became one in the strain between the Power and the dagger. That's when Mat gains his first Other Memory. So what? They weren't looking for the Bowl. Mat was in Ebou dar as part of the group looking for the Bowl.Mat was not looking for anything just like those dozen people, his only job was to keep the women safe and he wasn't told why they were in Ebou Dar. He split from the group along with his men because it became intolerable to stay with them any longer. In splitting up, he was no longer part of the search, with no further contact or meetings until much later. The key was in the finding, not the looking. They found her without looking.They didn't find Setalle at all, she found them so you can't apply the wording to her. And she found them solely as a result of them finding Mat at the inn; after they began to associate the finding of the bowl with finding the right person to get them the bowl. That's Mat, not Setalle. So he was useful in fighting off Shadowspawn and Darkfriends, not finding the Bowl. Mat in being the only one capable of defeating the gholam fulfills those "pitfalls and snares" terms of the dream. Without that, they would all be dead and the "wrong hands" would have the bowl, which was also a possibility. The obstacles mentioned in the dream form the reasoning for why the one should be found, which doesn't apply to Setalle. That makes no sense. But Mat is still one. So even if we accepted your interpretation, which we have no reason to do, it still could not be Mat. So we have no reason to say Mat is the one who is no longer. In "the one who is no longer" there is no mention of being "able to channel" or being "aes sedai", you'd have to tack those interpretations on top of the original wording for them to mean Setalle. You don't have to accept my interpretation of Mat being no longer one for the wording to apply. If you're basing your Setalle interpretations on the wording by adding to it, then you could do the same for Mat and say he is "the one who is no longer":- "a farmboy" - "filled with just his own memories" - "tainted by the evil of shadar logoth" - "the Hornsounder(if his death counts?)" or any random interpretation that applies to Mat. No. Locating the item was what Elayne did, though. After Reanne led her to the store room. After Setalle led her to Reanne. They came upon it when the Kin led them there, not when Mat did. Therefore it was not Mat. No, although it might count as finding the storeroom. But he didn't lead them there. The dream does not mention leading anyone anywhere, it only talks of finding. And Mat definitely found the storeroom first, having come upon it in trying to find the bowl. It was because of finding Mat that Setalle found them, only because of Mat that Setalle decided to take them to the Kin so Mat stands at the root of events you credit to Setalle and Elayne confirms this. So if Mat had no further involvement in finding the bowl beyond his link to Setalle, his role in its retrieval would still hold greater weight than hers since that's all she's ever credited for. Anyway they came upon the storeroom together, Mat included, with Setalle nowhere in the picture. However they had trouble actually finding the bowl, with Kin getting wounded or killed left, right and center and it's only due to Mat's presence ridding them of the gholam that the bowl was found. He is. You should.Not when the passive personalities within those memories show through him and he becomes them. Exactly: he is one man, one personality. One. Not many.Speaking as them, adopting their personalities & thoughts. Him and them. Many. No longer one. No. But that is not at all relevant. They are his memories. They're other men's memories and that's how they're described in the books. And it's entirely relevant since those experiences make Mat who he is in his head, which does not correspond to his reality. Natively his or not, they are his now. Mat is one, and nothing you have said has changed that.They are in him, but they are not his. They happened to other men. Remembering he was taller than Rand means Mat is no longer thinking exclusively as himself but as him and other men, hence no longer one. Which isn't relevant. They are his now, he remembers doing them. They're other men's experiences that he only remembers doing but did not do, hence not him. You're still applying ownership to an identity issue. United into one, and thus one.Many men united within one and thus many. He is a new Mat from the Mat he was before, but he is still one man. He was one man with holes in his mind, now he's one man with the holes filled.With other men's memories. Which makes him no longer one. Side point, but the westlands have no stigma against homosexuality, so this would be rather less of an issue.I know. The question is, is Mat no longer one, and the answer to that is simply yes. Combined into one. So he is one.Combination of many military men, each with distinctive personalities, so no longer one.
  2. ^ Hey! You agreed with me on Mat being no longer one darn it! :D I'm aware of that quote. It doesn't contradict what I said. Except that RJ thinks of Mat as a single human male. And I've used similar terms to describe Mat as a dominant personality among other passive ones, many men within one man. Still implies plurality though, as any union would. There are badasses in Mat. I was wondering when somebody would make the Old Blood argument. Because it's what Mat uses to allay Birgitte's suspicions about unknowingly speaking in the Old Tongue. To which Birgitte laughs at him, trying not to double over with tears in her eyes. In her response she tells him that some people speak only a few words, a phrase or two because of the Old Blood, usually without understanding what they say. That's right before she nails him on the specific accents and dialects he's using to prove that's not the case with him. You are missing the point. Birgitte is wrong, because Mat has spoken far more than a few words in the Old Blood. In fact, regardless of whether or not he understood what he was saying, the Old Blood clearly gives him some memories. He recalls a battle cry from the days of Manetheren in TEOTW. And look back at TDR, where he was not acting like Mat at all, but someone in a completely different set of circumstances. The Old Blood doesn't stay with you, it goes away and you forget whatever it was you were saying, not like with memory. Mat was still Mat when he left the Two Rivers. The Old Blood flowed very strongly in Mat and it seems to manifest at times of stress, like in the heat of battle. But the healing of Mat in TDR would count as extreme stress, physical and mental with the toll the power was taking on his life. More importantly, the dagger was fighting the power and given its effect on behavior, that enormous struggle caused the old blood to not only resurface in great strength but also take hold in his mind. Any changes in Mat in TDR would have to be ascribed to the healing and its conflict with the dagger. That doesn't contradict Birgitte on the usual manifestations of the old blood. What she says is canon and hasn't been contradicted within canon. Rather it's reinforced in TEOTW. When Thom corrects Mat and Rand who say it's some dead person speaking from Mat, he calls that dangerous and stupid talk. Citing Moiraine, he reiterates it's the old blood, "not a dead man". Having the Old Blood alone doesn't count as being no longer one. Egwene too carries the old blood as do Bode Cauthon and many of the Two Rivers folk. Egwene thought she momentarily recognized what Mat was saying at the battle before Shadar Logoth but couldn't remember it afterwards.
  3. ^ Nice :D Would it make a difference if I moved this to a fresh thread? I'm aware of that quote. It doesn't contradict what I said. Not really a contradiction. A diverse group of people can form a union. Doesn't mean plurality doesn't apply to them. I was wondering when somebody would make the Old Blood argument. Because it's what Mat uses to allay Birgitte's suspicions about unknowingly speaking in the Old Tongue. To which Birgitte laughs at him, trying not to double over with tears in her eyes. In her response she tells him that some people speak only a few words, a phrase or two because of the Old Blood, usually without understanding what they say. That's right before she nails him on the specific accents and dialects he's using to prove that's not the case with him.
  4. Well, the Kin led the way to the Bowl. So in finding the Kin, they found the Bowl. So she was the key to finding it. They found her, so they found it. So Mat found Setalle? According to you, "they didn't find Setalle, she found them so the wording of the dream doesn't apply to her." So you just contradicted yourself. Mat, as one of the searchers, found Setalle, who led to the Kin and then the Bowl. So finding Setalle was the key. Mat was doing the searching, not being searched for. She was found by him, he wasn't found by anyone. A dozen people would have found Setalle in the course of that day's business when Mat arrived at the Wandering Woman, because she was the innkeeper. Mat wasn't involved in the search for the bowl at that point of time. Neither was he any longer in the same party as those who did know of the bowl and were looking for it. As dholm pointed out: "the key was finding the one who is no longer." Nobody was even looking for the One at that point. Aviendha knew of the dream and later suggested using Mat as the person to get them the bowl. That's when Nynaeve and Elayne had to find Mat in the Wandering Woman to make him part of the search and get him to move into the Palace with them. The process of looking for, asking for directions & finding Mat resulted in Setalle finding them; which makes finding Mat the key. It happened because of Mat, right outside his door and Setalle took them to the Kin out of concern for Mat, her "only reason" as she puts it. She led them to the Kin but the bowl's location was discovered and revealed first by Mat which goes further towards fulfilling the dream. Through Elayne, we see Mat credited as "root cause", "sure way" and "entirely" responsible for that success. As far as we know, the Kin never got around to revealing the location of the storeroom; Reanne was about to but she didn't. She isn't even sure the bowl is in the storeroom, having no knowledge of it. Once the location became known, they all travel to the storeroom together including Mat who had already been there. At the storeroom, Mat wasn't just instrumental, he was critical in getting the bowl by being the only one able to defeat the gholam- giving final resolution to the dream prediction which mentions the snares and pitfalls around the bowl. The dream wording does not support Setalle. She is not "the one who is no longer" because the dream does not mention what she is no longer. The vagueness of the wording is deliberate and imo a clue to the play on the word "one", which Mat is no longer as a result of those Other Men's memories within him. ...Yes, it is.No it's not, all you've learned is the location. You have not found the bowl. (here)You're splitting hairs. In other words, found it. (here). Stop splitting hairs.Locating a store on a map is not the same as finding the item you want in that store. find: transitive verb 1 a : to come upon often accidentally : encounter b : to meet with (a particular reception) <hoped to find favor> 2 a : to come upon by searching or effort <must find a suitable person for the job> b : to discover by study or experiment <find an answer> c : to obtain by effort or management <find the time to study> d : attain, reach <the bullet found its mark> If that was splitting hairs then neither of you would have taken up the finding issue vis a vis the one. To find is to "come upon" and clearly the bowl was not found at the time in question. Mat had actually stood outside the storeroom before Elayne and the Aes Sedai got to the Kin. Surely that would count as finding the bowl by your definitions. She was commenting on his accent, idiom & language. He was speaking the Old Tongue, Birgitte questions him on it right before. Mat doesn't just learn from those memories. He becomes the men in those memories. That's why he speaks as them in a language other than his own without knowing he's doing it. Birgitte identifies the other men in him by the shifting accent/dialect. By virtue of being the only personality in that man. He is one man. One man with a few memories from other men is still just one man. But, if you can find an example of Mat being referred to in the plural, you may just have a point. You currently don't. Mat is one man.I wouldn't say he is the only personality. The others do exist albeit passively in their memories. When Mat experiences those memories, he does so as those men, experiencing their thoughts and living out their actions. I thought Birgitte's statement was a fine example of Mat acting as other men. "One sentence, you're an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect." I feel pretty certain RJ has said Mat has only one soul and only one personality. They are memories, and they do not change Mat in any way other than how memories do. All of the memories are filtered through his personality. The accents is just that: Accent. It pertains to how he learned the Old Tongue. It certainly doesn't mean someone else is speaking through him; for one thing, he knows exactly what it is he is saying (even if he doesn't know in what language he does so). The memories in Mat represent the men they come from, with their own thoughts and personalities. And Mat becomes the men whose memories he relives. Like with the OM of a lord dancing with an atha'an miere emissary, he refers to himself as the Lord - not Mat - with the Lord's thoughts & desires. Again, I never said they were speaking through him, I said he was speaking as them. That's why he was unknowingly speaking another language, not just in another accent. Any acquired ancient language filtered through his personality should also reflect his own Two Rivers accent or at the very least, a modern accent but it doesn't because he is also those men. Being no longer one is the reason he doesn't know what language he is speaking in the first place. Well, they were given to him. I'd say that makes them his, even if he didn't live them. If I bought a VC, then it is mine. I own it. Even if it was never awarded to me.Not sure what you meant by a VC, a VCR? Anyway that's a highly flawed comparison because memories are an integral part of what makes a person them. It's not a question of ownership but identity. Those memories and experiences are not him, or rather at least they're not supposed to be. They come from other men. Yet they are now an integral part of him, not of other men. Everything that comes from those memories are filtered through Mat's personality; they do not impart him with a personality of their own. When Mat isn't aware of the memories not being his, he thinks of them as having lived them himself. They work just as any experience you have had works. The fact that they once belonged to other men doesn't change that. So if he owns those memories and they are now an integral part of him, with the experiences in them the same as if they were his own- does that mean Mat Cauthon was ever taller than Rand al'Thor? Mat was never taller than Rand. Not as himself. Mat Cauthon never rode against Artur Hawkwing. So you're wrong. Being foreign memories changes everything because in them you're not you anymore. Those experiences don't represent you the way yours do. The original Mat Cauthon is not those other men and they are not him. Their experiences and characteristics are not natively his. If Mat thinks he is those other men or those other men are himself - and he does, it means he is no longer one. So what? He is still one man, with one personality, and one soul. That personality is acting as those other men would based on their own experiences. In those experiences, he is them and his real world actions are often a blend of Mat and them. No. His actions are completely Mat's. If they weren't, he'd complain about doing stuff he didn't intend to do. The memories are filtered through Mat -- Mat acts on them, but it is HIS choice and HIS interpretation of them. Speaking out in another language without intending to counts among his actions and usually comes as a shock or bother to him. And it occurs with great regularity. When Birgitte pointed out he was speaking the old tongue, he feels the hair on his neck try to stand. You would have his experiences of doing all that, but it would feel as if you did them. They act as Mat's own memories. Not as separate entities. But he didn't do them so they aren't his experiences. Acquiring them doesn't make them his because Mat Cauthon never did any of that. Mat Cauthon never lived hundreds of years ago, never met those people, and didn't fight those battles. Thinking he did do what those other men did makes him no longer one, but rather a union of them and him. Well, ownership is part of it, and he does own them. As for identity, he identifies them as his own. Ownership is not part of it when it comes to identity. And you're still thinking identity in terms of ownership. To identify is to become and in becoming those other men Mat is no longer just himself. It is not in the slightest bit relevant. A hypothetical Mat with no arms would have lived a different life to the mat we have, as would a hypothetical gay Mat (who would spend much less time chatting up serving girls). Mat is still one man, albeit a different man to any other possible Mat.A Mat with no arms would have his own unique experiences from losing his arms to discovering how to live without them even tossing dice from his mouth. A gay Mat would in discovering his attraction to men, experience his own fears and conflicts and the courage it would require to embrace his homosexuality. These experiences would be his- they would have actually happened to him. A Mat with someone else's memories remembers doing things and thinking in ways that do not correspond to the real Mat's life. Mat was never taller than Rand so he shouldn't remember being taller than him. A Mat who is many men with many experiences, including but not limited to changes in physical stature in the distant past, is no longer one. It is acting as Mat would, based on those experiences. And it is still only one personality. However you slice it, Mat is only one man, so your interpretation of "one who is no longer one" cannot fit him. He is not acting solely as Mat would, that's the point. He thinks, reasons and acts as a combined entity of Mat and those other men. Mat's is one active personality passively influenced by those of other men, except he can't tell the difference between him and them. So he is no longer one. No, he is acting as Mat. Just Mat-with-battle-skills-etc. as opposed to Mat-without-battle-skills-etc.The Mat with battle skills is the combination of Mat and those other military men. Exactly. One man, indivisible.Indivisible sort of like a collective of many men within one man, usually but not completely governed by a single dominant personality that is influenced by numerous passive personalities experienced through their individual memories. Ergo, no longer one.
  5. And you haven't shot it down. Rand knew where Mat was, roughly, and the girls knew where Mat was staying. They didn't know where "the one who is no longer" was. So it cannot be Mat. You haven't shot Mat down on the 'finding' issue either. If you're applying the same standards to both characters then they didn't find Setalle, she found them so the wording of the dream doesn't apply to her. The girls still had to look for Mat. And the finding criteria doesn't work against Mat from the Wise Ones perspective who worded the dream, as since they didn't know who the One was, he'd have to be found. By virtue of being the only personality in that man. He is one man. One man with a few memories from other men is still just one man. But, if you can find an example of Mat being referred to in the plural, you may just have a point. You currently don't. Mat is one man.I wouldn't say he is the only personality. The others do exist albeit passively in their memories. When Mat experiences those memories, he does so as those men, experiencing their thoughts and living out their actions. I thought Birgitte's statement was a fine example of Mat acting as other men. "One sentence, you're an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect." ...Yes, it is.No it's not, all you've learned is the location. You have not found the bowl. (here) Well, they were given to him. I'd say that makes them his, even if he didn't live them. If I bought a VC, then it is mine. I own it. Even if it was never awarded to me.Not sure what you meant by a VC, a VCR? Anyway that's a highly flawed comparison because memories are an integral part of what makes a person them. It's not a question of ownership but identity. Those memories and experiences are not him, or rather at least they're not supposed to be. They come from other men. Is irrelevant. A Mat who got memories one way and a Mat who got them another might be slightly different, with different memories, but that doesn't mean that one of them is suddenly several people. Mat is one man, regardless of how his memories were acquired.One Mat would have lived his own life. The no-longer-one Mat has practically lived and died as other men. It is entirely relevant. Well, she led them to the Kin, who led them to the Bowl. Thus she is the key to finding it.That makes her the 'key'(I prefer to say link) to the Kin, nothing more. Mat led to Setalle in the first place. Mat also discovered and declared the location to the bowl before the Kin could reveal it. And Mat's involvement was crucial to the actual finding of the bowl. So what? He is still one man, with one personality, and one soul. That personality is acting as those other men would based on their own experiences. In those experiences, he is them and his real world actions are often a blend of Mat and them. Actually canon (Elayne & Birgitte) said so. And the events concerning the bowl as laid out by the author largely center around Mat in a definitive way. The play on words is IMO the only evident clue in the stated dream, because the evidence neither specifies what the One is no longer and it certainly doesn't mention "Aes Sedai" or "able to channel". Even if you completely disregard my interpretation of the Dream and insert your own(please feel free to), Mat's role as key to finding the bowl is quite incontrovertible. Especially vis a vis Setalle. The theory concerning Setalle is deadly serious, I assure you. Which is honestly surprising as there is little factual evidence to support her. The criticisms applied to Mat's case can be argued but the same criticisms overwhelm Setalle's. And I could refer to, say, my mathematics teacher to make an informed decision on a math test. Technically my memories are based on his teachings, so in a way I'm using his knowledge. It doesn't mean I am multiple people. He remains one body, one soul, one mind. The extra memories are just like receiving a transfusion of someone else's blood. It doesn't make you multiple people. Those would be your memories of your mathematics teacher and your experiences with him and the knowledge filtered and absorbed through your personality. How much you learned from him would depend on how good you are at math. The extra memories would be like having your mathematics teacher inside you, not as an active entity no, but you'd know his experiences as him, based on what he learned as a student from his math teacher, the work he put in to gain his teaching position, his years of work experience teaching students(including you), etc. They do not. They give him different accents and experiences, but he still acts like Mat. As far as this theory of acting like different men goes, how would you define someone who is drugged and doesn't act like themselves? Are they suddenly multiple people? Actually when someone is intoxicated, they tend to be more unrestrained versions of themselves. If they imitate someone else it would be their own interpretation of what that someone is like. (You might not agree that I do a decent impersonation of Jack Nicholson.) If those OM give him anything more, whether its accents, combat skills, battle strategy and it shows through his actions then he is acting as both Mat and those other men. Poetic, but false. Mat's actions are based on Mat's personality. He uses the experience from those memories to influence his judgement, but ultimately the decision is his. It's the same as reading Coumadrin's book and taking its advice into account. Those experiences aren't the same as knowledge gained through reading. You and I can read the same passage or receive the same advice and come to varied conclusions based on how we think. Reading Comadrin isn't the same as fighting him in battle. With the memories as a part of him, he has lived through those experiences as them. The Other Memories give Mat a first person awareness of being them in similar situations and that's not the same as learning or being informed. Mat is often unable to distinguish between whether something has occurred in his past or of those other men. I apologize if I can't express myself clearer than this but I do want to try if anyone is willing to listen. This isn't much of a pet theory as a discovery. I hadn't developed this beyond the core idea before I began discussing it here. So I apologize for the protracted arguments that have resulted. If anything, I'd say this discussion has entirely shaped my position so even if it stays with me it's been worth it and I am grateful to those who've taken part. Thanks.
  6. Sorry, but that's far from the truth and simply wrong. Mat is one person, no matter of his memories. Every person acts based on his own and acquired memories and experience. Even Juilin. Even you. And Rand, who sent Mat to Salidar, fits even better - that's the one who surely is "no longer one" - with LTT in his head, quite alive. Except you can't count those memories and experiences as Mat's. They're not his, they belong to Other Men. Which is why I've previously compared a other-memory containing Mat with a hypothetical other-memory-free Mat. That hypothetical Mat would have had to gain experience for himself just like anybody else, with painful lessons, failures as well as successes; but they'd be his, based on his actions, done on his terms, meaning the experiences would be his own based on HIS personality and HIS perspective. That hypothetical Mat would never have gotten himself involved in or killed in a myriad battles and situations. The Other memories come from people who gained those experiences as a result of their own unique choices and decisions, based on their individual personalities, not Mat's. And yes, Rand would have fit better. But given how he is not involved in the actual finding of the bowl, I believe it disqualifies him. Setalle too was merely incidental in the discovery of its location but was not involved in its Finding. Neither can be described as the Key vis a vis Mat. Now that's ironic considering there's now more reasoned backing for Mat being the one than for Setalle. Seriously, why is Setalle the one? His one mind is cluttered by the memories of numerous other men. Other people's memories that fill him where his own memories should have been. He often refers to them to inform his conscious decisions and actions. Their influences even go to the extent of making him act like different men without his conscious knowledge. Birgitte's statement about the Manetheren Lord and Eharoni Prince reveals this behavior to be rather specific in its manifestation of those other selves. How does that conform to the norm of a single human being? So you are claiming that a few hours worth of memories defines a human being? No, I'm saying a person's actions define them. And Mat's actions are routinely based on what these Other Men within him have done. If the memories were stolen from men, that would seem to imply that a single memory does not a man make. You can't steal someone from themselves. Does being stolen from them imply they were robbed of the memory or that those memories were copied/duplicated. Mat thinks the Finns are continuously accessing his memories but he hasn't lost anything yet(and yes I have considered the Finns being the explanation to Mat no longer being One). Anyway, even if you lose a memory, you're still basing your life on your own because you have other ones also of your own. Although Mat often ruminates on his earlier loss of memory and it bothers him greatly. I did consider this. And excepting that the rest of her role in events was mostly limited to guarding Elayne's back, among other issues, it's a strong possibility. Certainly more than Setalle. Good thoughts. :)
  7. Then how are they supposed to find Mat if he's already with them? It simply ruins your theory, I'm sorry. :-\ The key is Setalle Anan. Period. But they didn't find Mat. The key to finding the Bowl lay in finding the one who is no longer, and as they didn't find Mat he cannot be the key. He did find Setalle, who is the key, as she led them to Reanne, and thus they found the Bowl. There is, quite simply, no reasonable way to slice it so Mat is the one referred to. The finding issue has been mentioned before this. The Dream prediction comes from the Wise Ones to Aviendha and is revealed by Aviendha to Rand. Mat is somewhere on the road to Tear at that point of time and the Wise Ones could not say for sure who the Dream applied to or they would have. From the Dreamwalker perspective, the One would have to be found. But since we are being particular about the wording then we have deal with the incident in detail. Because technically speaking, Mat isn't exactly with Elayne and Nynaeve since they split up. He's at the Wandering Woman and they go looking for him, asking directions to his room and everything, so they can apologize and join forces again. Also technically speaking, they don't find Setalle Anan, she finds them when she hears about them acting like Aes Sedai(from Caira, the girl from whom they were getting directions to Mat). Being fair is all Aviendha and Birgitte expect of Elayne. And Elayne trying to be fair-minded at that point is the only reason she has anything complimentary to say about Mat at all. Elayne wouldn't describe crediting Mat "entirely" with discovering the location as the most difficult thing she ever did otherwise, given the things she's done. She is also trying to uphold her oaths as Aes Sedai as if she had held the rod so she can't say anything she doesn't truly believe. Given her reluctance, she'd have been glad of the excuse to ignore Birgitte's bond-felt but non-overt disapproval. And neither Birgitte nor Aviendha were around for approval when she points out to Nynaeve that they'd have to acknowledge Mat as the "root cause" leading them to the bowl. They weren't around after their meeting with the Kin either when Elayne suggests Mat as the only sure way of finding the bowl even if the Kin did know where it was. And she wasn't trying to appease Birgitte or Aviendha with her heartfelt thanks for saving them all from the Gholam. No, we can't. Mat is one man, so it makes no sense at all to say he is no longer one. Mat is the dominant personality in that man, but with those other memories with him he is not alone and no longer counts as one. A Juilin would count as one, and so would a Thom but Mat is not the same with other men in him. A Juilin or a Thom would never unknowingly speak as Lords or Princes while being themselves. Setalle was nowhere involved in retrieving the bowl.Which is completely irrelevant. The key to finding the Bowl, not retrieving it. And Setalle was the key as she led to the Kin, who led them to the Bowl. They found the Bowl because of Setalle. They found Setalle because of Mat, but they didn't find Mat, therefore it cannot be him. And if you want to go further back along the chain, you can put Rand above Mat, as he sent him to Salidar, and Egwene for sending the girls and Mat, and Nynaeve and Elayne for knowing to look for it in the first place. So even if Elayne sees Mat as the "root cause", doesn't mean he is, as you can go back a little further and say others were responsible for them going in the first place. You missed what I said right before. If knowing where the bowl was was all it took then either Nynaeve or Elayne would qualify as the one. They were actually there in the TAR storeroom of ter'angreal and saw where the storeroom was located. They should have had it, but didn't. The chain of events in the search for the bowl hits a kink once Mat breaks away from their party. They are unable to locate it anymore no matter how hard they try. Egwene can no longer help and she does try by asking the wise ones about using need again. Rand isn't even a factor. It's only once Mat gets involved again that everything begins to fall into place. You can disagree with Elayne all you want but she was actually there. And that's not counting that the author isn't using her to beat us over the head with clues.
  8. Mat was certainly the one that helped find the "one that is no longer" as you state in your first sentence. But Mat is not the "one that is no longer", Setalle is. She is the key. How is Setalle the "one that is no longer"? What is she no longer? No longer Aes Sedai? No longer able to channel? The dream mentions none of that. It's deliberately been made vague, so either you assume there was no answer intended to this or that the answer is concealed within the wording. The only other reason why people say it's Setalle is because she led them to the Kin. She didn't have knowledge of the bowl, nor of the store room so she was only a small part of the chain that led to discovering the right location. Mat stands at the beginning of that chain which you rightly acknowledge- he led to Setalle and because of this Elayne also acknowledges him as the "root cause" to discovering the bowl's location. However Mat does far more than that. He is the first one among those looking to discover and reveal the location of the bowl having gone there well before Elayne and her Aes Sedai meet the Kin, which goes further in fulfilling the terms stated by the dreamwalkers of the One being the key. Again, Elayne grudgingly admits they owe the discovery "entirely" to him. Of course, none of this is getting them the bowl because knowing the location is not the same as finding the bowl. Look at the entire dream prediction: Setalle was nowhere involved in retrieving the bowl. The snares and pitfalls mentioned above also play a part when it comes to identifying the Key. The major threat they faced to prevent them getting their hands on it turned out to be the Gholam. Apart from Mat, nobody else whether channeler or soldier was equipped to deal with that. Without Mat they would all be dead and the bowl lost. So even if you work backwards by analyzing these events and all the other characters' places in them, Mat Cauthon proves to be the Key the Dream talks of.
  9. I've repeatedly maintained we are not talking about other active personalities, that we can still apply plurality to Mat based on those other men's memories and his actions dependent on them. A singular individual doesn't have a first person awareness of what other men have done in their lifetimes through foreign memories intermingled with his own. A singular individual would be someone like say- Juilin who doesn't have memories from other men to base his actions on. The evidence on Mat being the key to obtaining the bowl is quite overwhelming. I've addressed this earlier. Mat isn't with them though, nor with Aviendha and the Wise Ones where the dream was first related. He was somewhere on the road to Tear. And the Wise Ones didn't know it was Mat, they probably saw defining characteristics that were not very clear. They certainly don't know about Mat's other memories. But perhaps they had their suspicions as it was Aviendha who eventually suggests using Mat to find the bowl, which is when Elayne and Nynaeve finally begin to make headway. It was Mat's ta'veren-ness that led to Setalle in the first place. Setalle was simply one of the threads Mat being Ta'veren twisted around himself without knowing he'd need it later. Elayne acknowledges Mat as the root cause even while she was with Setalle, and credits Mat with locating and finding the bowl afterwards too, which he does. I've covered this part already. I'll repeat: in "the one who is no longer"- there's a missing object(as Rand points out) in the sentence that imo is an indirect reference to the subject that's already present. It's a play on the word "one". Many props to Mr. Jordan for coming up with it.
  10. The old Mat Cauthon with his own memories wouldn't have anything to do with a Lord, even the current one claims he wouldn't and so speaking as a Lord or Prince should never have happened. Yet it does. So yes, the memories clearly have changed him. How does one make the lives, actions, decisions and thoughts, of a multitude a part of themselves without changing? Other men's memories influence his actions and that doesn't apply to the norm of a singular individual.
  11. His own experiences would be based on his own persona. Other men's experiences would be based on their personalities and are an entirely different matter. It doesn't come to the same thing when he is in fact acting like them. When he speaks like a Lord or a Prince, those are certainly not Mat Cauthon.
  12. We don't disagree on the essence. Mat hosts the memories of many men, controlled and interpreted by his own (dominant) personality. But as his actions are influenced by those other memories, they are not the actions of say... a hypothetical Mat devoid of those memories who'd have to rely on his own life experiences like every other man. The person isn't exactly the same anymore, nor can he be called a singular individual based on those other men's influences. Birgitte's comments are most telling in this regard.
  13. When dealing with a situation that Mat alone may not handle, he does what other men have done in their lifetimes and that's perfectly supported by the text. I don't agree on his being unable to separate those memories from his own. He seems to identify them alright although there are times he does not seem aware when he does something based on those memories. Not being able to make a distinction as you suggest would only prove my point further, that he is acting as other men would. Mat differs from the norm of a single individual when he's got other men's memories and experiences to rely and act on. You don't have to imagine voices and alternate personalities to accept that basic fact.
  14. Yes but they're not his memories. They belong to others. I never said they were speaking through him, rather that he spoke and acted as them - as many men. The point is, Mat cannot be considered in the singular.
  15. Would they have? Mat was the first to make the discovery for them. Might not matter much on the practical side of things since they all (Mat and the Kin -- not Setalle) went together to retrieve it but Mat being first further qualifies as fulfillment of the terms of the Dream. Elayne repeatedly (and reluctantly) credits Mat with the whole thing. Even as Setalle is taking them to their meeting with the Kin, Elayne says if the Circle leads them to the bowl then they'd have to admit Mat was the "root cause". Later when they're turned out by the Kin and after they're attacked, she describes Mat as the only one, sure way to lead them to the bowl, even if the Circle do know where it is. When Mat interrupts the showdown with the Kin, he had discovered the location much earlier and made the trip from the Rahad to tell them about it. Again Elayne(describing this as one of the most difficult things she's ever done) thanks Mat saying it was entirely due to him that they found what they were looking for. Not to mention that it was Aviendha who related the dream to Rand and she was the one who suggested using Mat to find the Bowl in the first place. And knowing where the bowl is, is not the same as finding it, in which case Setalle wasn't involved at all. You have to take the dream interpretation regarding the bowl in it's entirety and that includes securing it, which I'm glad you admit Mat was crucial to. My interpretation is rather strict: Someone who is no longer "one". In "the one who is no longer", the missing object of the sentence is the subject that's already present. I'm not adding anything that isn't there. Mat cannot be considered "one" anymore, see my response to Padraic. Apart from my interpretation, the statement could also mean someone dead or not growing, without tacking anything on at the end of the sentence. Proponents of the Setalle (or Reanne) theory fall into a third category, and would have to add what they are supposed to be, the "five years old" would be the equivalent of adding "Aes Sedai". That's reaching a bit. The Dream doesn't mention being able to channel or anything. Reanne had actual knowledge of the bowl. Setalle didn't so she can't be described as the key to this in any way. Setalle was barely involved in the discovery of it's location and not at all in the finding. Reanne comes closest after Mat. While those memories are not other active personalities you can't look at Mat as a singular individual when those other experiences are a part of him and he acts on it. Look at how Brigitte describes the first time he recognizes her, when Mat's inadvertently speaking the Old Tongue again, "one sentence, you're an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect."
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