Bashere, darkfriend

[Builder]

So what now. Bashere is gonna die or become a DF? Or is he already a DF?

[The Doctor]

It's possible Bashere fell victim to the Ingtar train of thought, futility of fighting against the ever advancing shadow... but I like him to much to let myself believe he is a DF.

[Majsju]

IF Bashere turns out to e a DF (and that is a huge IF), I want to see him having been up to something cool. Like being Demandreds personal spy.

[Master Norry]

Or BEING Demandred :P

 

Would suck, though

[Gentled Ben]

He is not Demandred for the same reasons that Taim is not Demandred.

 

Lews Therin had three top generals turn on him, so it should not be too surprising if it happens to Rand, as well. I think Bashere being a darkfriend would be a wonderful plot twist.

[Shard]

Yes but what about the stuff Titan orion said about the two women who stabbed Rand and said that Bashee wouldn't be happy if he died then and there, Then they shit brix when they found out that Rand could hear them?

 

Well if your caught saying how this would be a great time to kill the King, wouldn't you be shitting bricks?

[Master Norry]

He is not Demandred for the same reasons that Taim is not Demandred.

 

Lews Therin had three top generals turn on him, so it should not be too surprising if it happens to Rand, as well. I think Bashere being a darkfriend would be a wonderful plot twist.

 

It was a joke, really.

 

The problem is, I think the five great captains (including Mat) have to be somewhere when TG starts. Ituralde in Arad Doman, Agelmar with the Borderland army, and Bryne in the White Tower. That leaves Bashere. If one of the captains is gonna turn on Rand, it's him.

 

I wouldn't like him being a Darkfriend. But still he could turn on Rand, because of Tenobia, or maybe he will die.

[Muad Cheade]

Ituralde is not in Rand's camp yet. His only allegiance at the time is to Arad Doman. The same is said of Agelmar and Bryne with the Borderlanders and Salidar Aes Sedai respectively.

 

So what if Lews Therin Telamon had three top generals turn against him? Rand is not Lews Therin nor is this similar to the War of Power.

 

Min's viewing said it would be bad if he died or turned. Obviously, his influence/advise/military prowess is invaluable to Rand. However, a man can turn away from the "good guys" and still not be a DarkFriend. Just look at Aram.

 

The Legion of the Dragon is more loyal to Rand than Bashere. The men in it are asked if they want to serve the Dragon Reborn. Those that can channel go to the Black Tower. Those that can't join the Legion. Bashere isn't even it's commander, so on the every outside chance he is a DF Rand would still have control of them.

 

PS. I'm not sure even if Bashere was a DF, he'd appreciate his wife being almost killed for the Great Seals when he would simply give it to any Forsaken that asked.

[Gentled Ben]

Well in a manner of speaking yes, Rand is Lews Therin, and yes, this is similar to the War of Power, and can you not see a pattern?

 

Do you doubt that Rand intends to give Bashere a command? Are you expecting him to only control the 9000 cavalry he arrived with? He commanded against the Seanchan, after all. All he needs to do is destroy the command he's been entrusted with; he does not need to convince them to line up alongside the trollocs and slaughter the forces of Light.

 

The attempt on Deira's life is not really an indication of Bashere's loyalties one way or another, as the Shadow often works at cross purposes with itself. It would not be the first time that someone from the Shadow was screwing over someone else from the Shadow.

 

At any rate, I am not arguing that Bashere is a darkfriend, only that it would be a good plot twist if he was and that since it is not without precedent or even possible foreshadowing, it should not be surprising if it turns out that he's evil.

[mb]

Bashere turned might eventually result in death.  Semirhage or Graendal might be the most likely candidates to do the turning (because of the techniques they use).

Bashere's death I think is certain (along with Tenobia) regardless of whether he turns on Rand or not; because Min's Broken Crown viewing of Perrin.

 

[Charlz Guybon]

In the prologue of Crossroads of Twilight Bashere says that he agrees to a mans proposal.

 

What proposal, and who is this man.

Logain Ablar maybee?

I'm pretty sure it's Logain, however since Logain will be the man to earn glory by crushing Taim and the darkfriend Ashaman I don't see how that implies that Bashere is a darkfriend.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Who is Davram Bashere?

 

We are given a rather sparse biography within the books.  One of the Great Captains.  High Seat of House Bashere and Marshal General of Saldaea.

 

One of his jobs was apparently to be in charge of training his niece Tenobia to be ready to succeed her father as monarch.  He and Tenobia developed a close relationship.  When Tenobia was 16 she became queen.

 

Shortly thereafter, there was an incursion from the Blight.  Tenobia wanted to lead the defense and pursuit.  Bashere convinced her that doing so was not her job it was his.  He then led an expedition into the Blight to track down and kill those Shadowspawn who had raided Saldaea.  It is not known how long he was gone nor what was accomplished.  Apparently things did not go well, because once he returned, despite their close personal relationship, Tenobia exiled him.

 

He remained in exile until Taim declared himself Dragon and began conquering significant parts of the Saldaea.  He was then recalled and placed in command of the forces opposing Taim.  Despite his being a Great Captain and despite having the assistance of Cadsuane Melhaindren, Taim was beating him until the Great Jumbotron in the Sky started broadcasting Rand vs Ba'alzamon II: Falme.  Taim then fell from his horse, unconscious.  Taim's forces were routed and he was captured.  When Taim was later freed and began his escape, Bashere was given command of 9,000 Saldaean Horse and tasked with recapturing him.

 

We finally meet him when he turns up in the Throne Room of the Palace in Caemlyn, just after Rand kills Rahvin, and just before Asmodean is killed.  He strikes a bargain with Rand, and abandons his pursuit of Taim to raise and train an army for Rand.

 

The Theory:

 

Slayer is not unique.  He was a "proof of concept", created simply to prove that such an amalgam was possible.  Having been successful in that, the Dark moved on to implementing the really important amalgam.  The raid into the Borderlands was mounted entirely to provoke the response it got.  Once Bashere chased the attackers back into the Blight, his forces were overwhelmed and he was captured.  He then became Slayer Mark II - a combination of Davram Bashere and Barid Bel Medar, aka Demandred.

 

Exactly like Slayer, "Bashere" has the ability to decide which persona he will be whenever he "transitions" between places.  When he is being "Bashere" he is Bashere, and when he's being Demandred, he is Demandred.  Size, shape, coloring, clothing, weaponry, everything.   Just like Slayer is entirely different when he's being Isam than he is when he's being Lord Luc.

 

"Bashere" turns up in that Throne Room when he does, not because he's been trying for a week to get permission to bring troops into Andor, but because Lanfear has disappeared and the Dark has nobody covering Rand anymore.  It really is pretty difficult to get to where the person you're "pursuing" is going several weeks ahead of him if you're really pursuing him.

 

It was "Bashere" that Asmodean encountered when he opened that door.  Asmo was killed to protect "Bashere's" secret.  The method of his death was likely a Thrakandar blade.   (EDIT: It's also possible that Asmo opened that door just as Demandred was opening an inverted Gateway.  That'd make the method of his death being sliced in half as the Gateway opened, and the where of his death being two different places at once.  Demandred would then just pull the other half of the body into wherever that Gateway went. /EDIT )  When Demandred visits the DO the next day, he is surprised not by the DO knowing that Asmo was dead but by learning that were absolute limits on the DO's ability to transmigrate him.

 

When "Bashere" interferes with the carnage Rand is causing with Callandor, it isn't to do anything but save his own life.  One of those lightning bolts might hit him, and he can't erect a shield without giving himself away.

 

"The man" who came to "Bashere" the day before his tent got ransacked was Aginor/Osan'gar/Corlan Dashiva.  Dashiva was seeking cover for his plan to try to overwhelm Rand with Shadowspawn before he could use the Choeden Kal to Cleanse saidin.  Once "Bashere" learns that another of the Forsaken ( Graendal ) is sufficiently frightened by the prospect of Rand using the CK to move against him ( Bashere ) by trying to find the CK, the Seal, or both, he sends Tumad to tell "the man" that he agrees to his plan, but that Rand will be protected by "a few more than we talked about."  He then arranges to conveniently be absent when the actual attack at the Manor takes place.  Semirhage posing as Tuon and actually meeting ( and capturing ) Rand was the fallback plan in case Rand somehow survived the Shadowspawn attack.  If Semi had been successful, "Bashere" would have valiantly led all those backup troops to their slaughter, and the Dark would have both had Rand collared, and war to the knife between all of Rand's followers and the Seanchan.

 

The Lord of Chaos would indeed have ruled, and Tarmon Gai'don, such as it might have been without the Dragon fighting for the Light, would have been a mere formality.

 

Semirhage, despite being captured, feels quite safe.  Her greatest ally is still safely hidden as Rand's great Captain General, and she ( probably rightly ) believes that she will be freed when, where, and however best suits their purpose.  There's a decent probability that either Semirhage or Demandred will actually be the one who kills Rand.

 

Bash away.

[Gentled Ben]

Well...RJ stated, when in the midst of the "Taimandred" era, that we had not seen Demandred's persona on screen yet, so that in itself rules out Bashere. Also, we have POV's from Demandred that offer no indication of such a transformation, which is inconsistent with Cyndane, Aran'gar, Osan'gar, and Moridin, the other Forsaken who have been transformed in some way. It is also inconsistent with the POVs we have from Slayer and Fain, the other two melded personalities that we know of, not to mention that the one POV we have from Bashere does not indicate such an event taking place. It is an interesting train of thought, though.

[Titan Orion]

I cant say I see anything that points towards it, and I most defintely cant see Demandred letting himself become part of something like this.

[Cybertrolloc]

The Theory:

Let's see...the only time that Demandred has appeared in the real world on screen is the cleansing, and we don't know where Bashere is at that time (specifically--I think, check on this). If one knows what the other knows, Demandred would certainly recognize an Ashaman coat and Flynn (they were together in PoD).

 

I find the first meeting of Rand and Bashere to be concurrent with Asmo's death, and note that Lanfear died that morning and the attack on Caemlyn was kept secret before the Aiel were told the night before, so the latter parts need work.

 

So tighten up the theory a bit. Bashere PoV needs explaining (he doesn't seem dark), but other than that, good commentary on how much is known for really real. (Another Slayer isn't horrible, the only unique thing on the Shadow side is Shadar Haran and Slayer...but then there's Slayer's PoV bit to deal with too--I think he thinks himself unique.)

[Mcpatrick]

 

Shortly thereafter, there was an incursion from the Blight.  Tenobia wanted to lead the defense and pursuit.  Bashere convinced her that doing so was not her job it was his.  He then led an expedition into the Blight to track down and kill those Shadowspawn who had raided Saldaea.  It is not known how long he was gone nor what was accomplished.  Apparently things did not go well, because once he returned, despite their close personal relationship, Tenobia exiled him.

 

According to Faile in tSR, Bashere convinced Tenobia to not lead from the front by giving her a spanking. Tenobia (probably) exiled him for this reason, and that, given Ethenielle's POV in the tPoD prologue, wasn't exactly out of character for her. As for why Taim was winning? Because he can channel almost as powerfully as Rand. He was perfectly capable of blowing up Bashere's army, and the Aes Sedai that Bashere had with him couldn't really do much about it. Taim could have been keeping a somewhat lower profile, by not using tracer powers, he could have disguised himself, used a double, whatever, that would have defeated attempts at shielding, especially if Bashere didn't have 13 Aes Sedai with him. Cadsuane never actually says that she was with the army at the time of his capture, only that she went to Saldaea, and that she met Taim. For all we know, it could mean that Cadsuane didn't make it in time, and that she looked/spoke with him after his capture.

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Who is Davram Bashere?

 

We are given a rather sparse biography within the books.  One of the Great Captains.  High Seat of House Bashere and Marshal General of Saldaea.

 

One of his jobs was apparently to be in charge of training his niece Tenobia to be ready to succeed her father as monarch.  He and Tenobia developed a close relationship.  When Tenobia was 16 she became queen.

 

Shortly thereafter, there was an incursion from the Blight.  Tenobia wanted to lead the defense and pursuit.  Bashere convinced her that doing so was not her job it was his.  He then led an expedition into the Blight to track down and kill those Shadowspawn who had raided Saldaea.  It is not known how long he was gone nor what was accomplished.  Apparently things did not go well, because once he returned, despite their close personal relationship, Tenobia exiled him.

 

He remained in exile until Taim declared himself Dragon and began conquering significant parts of the Saldaea.  He was then recalled and placed in command of the forces opposing Taim.  Despite his being a Great Captain and despite having the assistance of Cadsuane Melhaindren, Taim was beating him until the Great Jumbotron in the Sky started broadcasting Rand vs Ba'alzamon II: Falme.  Taim then fell from his horse, unconscious.  Taim's forces were routed and he was captured.  When Taim was later freed and began his escape, Bashere was given command of 9,000 Saldaean Horse and tasked with recapturing him.

 

We finally meet him when he turns up in the Throne Room of the Palace in Caemlyn, just after Rand kills Rahvin, and just before Asmodean is killed.  He strikes a bargain with Rand, and abandons his pursuit of Taim to raise and train an army for Rand.

 

The Theory:

 

Slayer is not unique.  He was a "proof of concept", created simply to prove that such an amalgam was possible.  Having been successful in that, the Dark moved on to implementing the really important amalgam.  The raid into the Borderlands was mounted entirely to provoke the response it got.  Once Bashere chased the attackers back into the Blight, his forces were overwhelmed and he was captured.  He then became Slayer Mark II - a combination of Davram Bashere and Barid Bel Medar, aka Demandred.

 

Exactly like Slayer, "Bashere" has the ability to decide which persona he will be whenever he "transitions" between places.  When he is being "Bashere" he is Bashere, and when he's being Demandred, he is Demandred.  Size, shape, coloring, clothing, weaponry, everything.   Just like Slayer is entirely different when he's being Isam than he is when he's being Lord Luc.

 

"Bashere" turns up in that Throne Room when he does, not because he's been trying for a week to get permission to bring troops into Andor, but because Lanfear has disappeared and the Dark has nobody covering Rand anymore.  It really is pretty difficult to get to where the person you're "pursuing" is going several weeks ahead of him if you're really pursuing him.

 

It was "Bashere" that Asmodean encountered when he opened that door.  Asmo was killed to protect "Bashere's" secret.  The method of his death was likely a Thrakandar blade.   (EDIT: It's also possible that Asmo opened that door just as Demandred was opening an inverted Gateway.  That'd make the method of his death being sliced in half as the Gateway opened, and the where of his death being two different places at once.  Demandred would then just pull the other half of the body into wherever that Gateway went. /EDIT )  When Demandred visits the DO the next day, he is surprised not by the DO knowing that Asmo was dead but by learning that were absolute limits on the DO's ability to transmigrate him.

 

When "Bashere" interferes with the carnage Rand is causing with Callandor, it isn't to do anything but save his own life.  One of those lightning bolts might hit him, and he can't erect a shield without giving himself away.

 

"The man" who came to "Bashere" the day before his tent got ransacked was Aginor/Osan'gar/Corlan Dashiva.  Dashiva was seeking cover for his plan to try to overwhelm Rand with Shadowspawn before he could use the Choeden Kal to Cleanse saidin.  Once "Bashere" learns that another of the Forsaken ( Graendal ) is sufficiently frightened by the prospect of Rand using the CK to move against him ( Bashere ) by trying to find the CK, the Seal, or both, he sends Tumad to tell "the man" that he agrees to his plan, but that Rand will be protected by "a few more than we talked about."  He then arranges to conveniently be absent when the actual attack at the Manor takes place.  Semirhage posing as Tuon and actually meeting ( and capturing ) Rand was the fallback plan in case Rand somehow survived the Shadowspawn attack.  If Semi had been successful, "Bashere" would have valiantly led all those backup troops to their slaughter, and the Dark would have both had Rand collared, and war to the knife between all of Rand's followers and the Seanchan.

 

The Lord of Chaos would indeed have ruled, and Tarmon Gai'don, such as it might have been without the Dragon fighting for the Light, would have been a mere formality.

 

Semirhage, despite being captured, feels quite safe.  Her greatest ally is still safely hidden as Rand's great Captain General, and she ( probably rightly ) believes that she will be freed when, where, and however best suits their purpose.  There's a decent probability that either Semirhage or Demandred will actually be the one who kills Rand.

 

Bash away.

Crackpot. Adjective. This theory.

 

Bashere was meeting with Rand at the time Asmo died. Therefore it couldn't be Bashere. Luc and Isam share memories. Demandred didn't know Asmo was dead. Even if they were linked, which they are not, he still couldn't have killed Asmo. Bashere did not kill Asmo. The man was Logain. It was not Dashiva. Do you have a reference for Bashere being sent into exile or did you invent that as well?

[Mcpatrick]

Crackpot. Adjective. This theory.

 

Bashere was meeting with Rand at the time Asmo died. Therefore it couldn't be Bashere. Luc and Isam share memories. Demandred didn't know Asmo was dead. Even if they were linked, which they are not, he still couldn't have killed Asmo. Bashere did not kill Asmo. The man was Logain. It was not Dashiva. Do you have a reference for Bashere being sent into exile or did you invent that as well?

 

tSR, Goldeneyes, page 955 (on my copy):

" Even Tenobia has never led men in battle. She wanted to once, when I was eight, but father had a talk with her alone in her chambers, and we he rode off to the blight she stayed behind". With a rueful grin she added, "I think you and he use the same methods sometimes. Tenobia exiled him, but she was only sixteen, and the Council of Lords managed to change her mind after a few weeks. ..."

 

Just an FYI. Bob's theory is hare-brained, in my opinion, and the above quote kinda puts a hole in it. If Bashere had really wanted to betray Saldaea to the blight, he could have done so easily, and a long time ago.

[Kivam]

No one except Tumad was close enough to hear him, but he spoke softly anyway and chose his words cautiously.  Sometimes the price of carelessness was death, too.  "You know where to find the man who came to me yesterday?  Find him, and tell him that I agree, but there will be a few more than we talked about."

 

If  Logain was "the man", and he headed off to Cairhien, how would Tumad know where to find him?

 

Using Cooper's Timeline:

 

Logain was given permission to go recruiting on day 702, and made ready to leave immediately.  Bashere wasn't contacted until day 710 at which point Logain was nearly to Cairhien.  On day 711 Bashere's tent was ransacked, and he sent Tumad off to deliver his acceptance to "the man."  On day 712 Dobraine was attacked and nearly killed, and Logain and his party arrived in Cairhien.  Bashere doesn't get to Cairhien until many days later.  They all don't show up at the Manor until Day 724 having Traveled there from Cairhien in a single day using the Warders as direction and distance finders.

 

 

 

Right - so you're saying that the problem is Logain would have to get from Andor to Cairhien in a single day, while it took Bashere many more days?  Why is that an issue?

[Kivam]

Davram Bashere, he currently seems not a darkfriend; but he might become so, possibly through Semirhage.

 

 

Well, that was random . . .

[Mr Ares]

Crackpot. Adjective. This theory.

 

Bashere was meeting with Rand at the time Asmo died. Therefore it couldn't be Bashere. Luc and Isam share memories. Demandred didn't know Asmo was dead. Even if they were linked, which they are not, he still couldn't have killed Asmo. Bashere did not kill Asmo. The man was Logain. It was not Dashiva. Do you have a reference for Bashere being sent into exile or did you invent that as well?

tSR, Goldeneyes, page 955 (on my copy):

" Even Tenobia has never led men in battle. She wanted to once, when I was eight, but father had a talk with her alone in her chambers, and we he rode off to the blight she stayed behind". With a rueful grin she added, "I think you and he use the same methods sometimes. Tenobia exiled him, but she was only sixteen, and the Council of Lords managed to change her mind after a few weeks. ..."

Just an FYI. Bob's theory is hare-brained, in my opinion, and the above quote kinda puts a hole in it. If Bashere had really wanted to betray Saldaea to the blight, he could have done so easily, and a long time ago.

Thank you. While this does prove there was indeed an exile, it also shows Bob's reasoning to be flawed - his exile lasted mere weeks, she was sixteen when she did it, she is in her mid twenties now, Mazrim Taim is a recent threat. Yet, according to Bob, "He remained in exile until Taim declared himself Dragon and began conquering significant parts of the Saldaea." He remained in exile for the several weeks between her sixteenth birthday and her twenty-fifth, when Taim shows up.

[FarShainMael]

I too am playing with the idea that Bashere may be a DF.. and has a close connection with Taim. (Dunno about he death of Asmo, though.)

 

From the 'Moridin' thread (on the 'spoilers' board, beware!):

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,50080.288.html

Quote from: Durinax on February 06, 2010, 06:28:59 PM

I thoguht that bashere tensed when Taim entered the room.

 

and Taim doesnt like using swords becasue he thinks they are useless when you can channel

Going off at a slight tangent here.. in LoC Ch1, Bashere asks Rand why he's bothering to learn the sword when he could easily defend himself with saidin, making his point by throwing a dagger at Rand; which Rand duly stops with saidin.

 

Hmm. Not quite sure what to make of that.. except that Bashere and Taim are both Saldean; and Bashere's niece, Tenobia, is with the group of Borderlanders seeking Rand, much to his, er, annoyance.

 

Bashere tenses when Taim comes in, and claims not to recognise him without his beard! Surely not. You can recognise someone just by their eyes, as any motorsports fans will know.

 

What's Bashere up to? What is the connection between him and Taim?

 

Their physical appearance is somewhat different. From EncWoT:

Bashere

He is short and slender with a hooked beak of a nose and dark tilted eyes. He has gray streaked black hair and a thick mustache like down-turned horns around his wide mouth. (TFoH,Ch56) He is very short, has typical Saldaean tilted eyes and eagle beak nose, and has a gray streaked moustache. (ACoS,Ch7)

Taim

He has black hair and is above average height. He has the dark face, tilted eyes, hooked nose and high cheekbones of a Saldaean. He looks about thirty-five. (LoC,Ch1) Perrin sees him as dark, slightly hook-nosed, handsome, almost as tall as Rand. (ACoS,Ch2)

 

Assuming that no MoM is being used, Taim could be a younger, taller Bashere.. possibly a nephew (brother to Tenobia?), possibly even an 'unofficial' son.

 

As has been noted, if Bashere is indeed a Darkfriend, he is in a very good position, right inside the DR's camp!

 

From Bob T Dwarf:

But, there's also Egwene's Dream about the man standing at Rand's shoulder with a knife to his throat.  A man that Rand doesn't even notice.  Couple that with Min's viewing of "something Dark" about Bashere, and you begin to get a better focus on who Davram Bashere really is and what cause he really serves.

 

[J-Rad]

What's Bashere up to? What is the connection between him and Taim?

 

Their physical appearance is somewhat different. From EncWoT:

Bashere

He is short and slender with a hooked beak of a nose and dark tilted eyes. He has gray streaked black hair and a thick mustache like down-turned horns around his wide mouth. (TFoH,Ch56) He is very short, has typical Saldaean tilted eyes and eagle beak nose, and has a gray streaked moustache. (ACoS,Ch7)

Taim

He has black hair and is above average height. He has the dark face, tilted eyes, hooked nose and high cheekbones of a Saldaean. He looks about thirty-five. (LoC,Ch1) Perrin sees him as dark, slightly hook-nosed, handsome, almost as tall as Rand. (ACoS,Ch2)

 

Assuming that no MoM is being used, Taim could be a younger, taller Bashere.. possibly a nephew (brother to Tenobia?), possibly even an 'unofficial' son.

Except, people of the same nationality can often look very similar and not be related.  People of the same nationality actualy have very similar DNA.  There doesn't have to be a blood connection.

 

[FarShainMael]

Certainly they are both described as having a Saldean look. But in a community which is stable/self-contained enough tohave a 'typical' look and very similar DNA, the chances of there being a near blood connection increases.

 

I agree, it's a moot point, and on its own probably doesn't mean much. But, taken together with their apparent common disdain for teaching people (specifically, Rand and Asha'man) to use weapons, which I don't think is typically borderlander never mind Saldean, it made me wonder.