Woman Dead and Gone

[Roxinos]

No, the "woman dead and gone" is not the viewing. We never saw the viewing. We know it concerns Moiraine because Min said she only had one failed viewing, and later said that Moiraine was her only failed viewing. The failed viewing is concerning the "woman dead and gone."

 

Kiv, you're taking what Min said too literally. Just remember: We have never seen the viewing. We only know that it concerns Moiraine.

[Cillian]

Nine pages, that's ..... interesting.

 

A few more candidates:

 

A woman who died and came back as a man

A man who died and came back as a woman

Ru Paul

 

:D

Are you sure it's a human woman? I'm mean, the term "woman" is so fuzzy, y'know?

Which means it could be any female of a species.

It could be a dead female horse (that was killed in one of the many battles) reincarnated as a pair of well made boots that somehow help Rand defeat the DO.

Power wrought boots? Ter'angreal Boots that actually make it possible for Rand to literally kick the DO's ass? :-\

 

I'll stop now.... :-[

[Roxinos]

Actually...that's probably the clearest part. Woman only refers to adult human females.

 

Killing humor is fun.

[zanotam]

Wait, why does this thread have 10 pages? I mean, even a Congar or Coplin could tell you that IT'S AN OBVIOUS REFERENCE TO GLORIOUS LEADER KIM JONG ILL RON PAUL AL GORE ILYENA BELA LIAH MOIRAINE DAMODRED SEDAI My God you guys, grow up!

[Kivam]

No, the "woman dead and gone" is not the viewing. We never saw the viewing. We know it concerns Moiraine because Min said she only had one failed viewing, and later said that Moiraine was her only failed viewing. The failed viewing is concerning the "woman dead and gone."

 

Kiv, you're taking what Min said too literally. Just remember: We have never seen the viewing. We only know that it concerns Moiraine.

 

No, you're missing my point.  I agree that the reference to the "woman dead and gone" is a reference to Moiraine; Min believes she's dead and gone, and her viewing said that Rand is very unlikely to win Tarmon Gaidon without him by her side.

 

My point is that the viewing about "Rand needing a woman dead and gone" (call it "viewing A") and the viewing about Moiraine that Min thinks failed (call it "viewing B") are not and cannot be one and the same.

 

Because viewing A has not failed - and indeed, by it's very definition as an if->then viewing, cannot fail. 

 

And viewing B (we're told) has failed (i.e. Min believes - wrongly, obviously - that what she saw cannot actually happen).

 

Therefore, viewing A /= viewing B.

 

That doesn't mean that viewing A and B don't both deal with the same person; they clearly do.  It does mean that they are different viewings about Moiraine, only one of which has "failed"

[Kivam]

Nine pages, that's ..... interesting.

 

A few more candidates:

 

A woman who died and came back as a man

A man who died and came back as a woman

Ru Paul

 

:D

Are you sure it's a human woman? I'm mean, the term "woman" is so fuzzy, y'know?

Which means it could be any female of a species.

It could be a dead female horse (that was killed in one of the many battles) reincarnated as a pair of well made boots that somehow help Rand defeat the DO.

Power wrought boots? Ter'angreal Boots that actually make it possible for Rand to literally kick the DO's ass? :-\

 

I'll stop now.... :-[

 

That would be perfect - power wrought boots, made from a dead female horse, to let Rand defeat the DO's donkey.

 

End the thread - we have our answer

[zanotam]

No, the "woman dead and gone" is not the viewing. We never saw the viewing. We know it concerns Moiraine because Min said she only had one failed viewing, and later said that Moiraine was her only failed viewing. The failed viewing is concerning the "woman dead and gone."

 

Kiv, you're taking what Min said too literally. Just remember: We have never seen the viewing. We only know that it concerns Moiraine.

 

No, you're missing my point.  I agree that the reference to the "woman dead and gone" is a reference to Moiraine; Min believes she's dead and gone, and her viewing said that Rand is very unlikely to win Tarmon Gaidon without him by her side.

 

My point is that the viewing about "Rand needing a woman dead and gone" (call it "viewing A") and the viewing about Moiraine that Min thinks failed (call it "viewing B") are not and cannot be one and the same.

 

Because viewing A has not failed - and indeed, by it's very definition as an if->then viewing, cannot fail. 

 

And viewing B (we're told) has failed (i.e. Min believes - wrongly, obviously - that what she saw cannot actually happen).

 

Therefore, viewing A /= viewing B.

 

That doesn't mean that viewing A and B don't both deal with the same person; they clearly do.  It does mean that they are different viewings about Moiraine, only one of which has "failed"

 

I figured that anyone smart enough to understand that the viewing was about Moiraine would have the 3 or 4 additional brain cells to realize that A VIEWING ABOUT SOMEONE FAILING IF SOMEONE WHO IS DEAD ISN'T THERE TO HELP THEM CANNOT BE A FAILURE UNLESS THAT PERSON SUCCEEDS WITHOUT THEM!!!! I mean, I assumed people had figured out that Rand HAS NOT WON TARMON GAI'DIN yet and hence HE CAN'T HAVE WON TARMON GAI'DIN WITHOUT MOIRAINE YET. I'd had this nagging feeling that people were rather silly on this board (I've already seen enough pointless arguments to realize that), but I didn't quite realize that people were willing to argue about something that COULD BE PROVEN, that in fact could be proven WITHOUT A DOUBT!

[Majsju]

No, you're missing my point.  I agree that the reference to the "woman dead and gone" is a reference to Moiraine; Min believes she's dead and gone, and her viewing said that Rand is very unlikely to win Tarmon Gaidon without him by her side.

 

My point is that the viewing about "Rand needing a woman dead and gone" (call it "viewing A") and the viewing about Moiraine that Min thinks failed (call it "viewing B") are not and cannot be one and the same.

 

Because viewing A has not failed - and indeed, by it's very definition as an if->then viewing, cannot fail. 

 

And viewing B (we're told) has failed (i.e. Min believes - wrongly, obviously - that what she saw cannot actually happen).

 

Therefore, viewing A /= viewing B.

 

That doesn't mean that viewing A and B don't both deal with the same person; they clearly do.  It does mean that they are different viewings about Moiraine, only one of which has "failed"

 

From KOD, we know that Min had several viewings about Moiraine, and it is Moiraines death that makes Min consider them failed.

 

We aren't the gatekeepers (although I've heard Maj ask a couple of people if they were the Keymaster)

 

Do not be ridicilous, I am the Keymaster. Or, at least I was until I ran out of money down at the pub, and traded the Key for a few pints...

[Serenla]

The failed viewing and this viewing seems not the same.

I am curious as to why you view the two as separate.  If Min thought someone who was supposed to do something in the future was dead, why would she still think that they could do anything?  If they are dead they cannot fufill a viewing, therefore the viewing has failed.  (Keeping in mind that Min has no knowledge of people being able to return from death.)

[Kivam]

For the record, in addition to being abusive, Rox just went and did exactly what Thin asked him not to (his post has been moved to an archive board).  As I warned him he would, he's been perma-banned.

[a pale tanned lover]

One theory i quite like is that the "women dead and gone" could be Illyena maybe as a twist with all the ghosts or something else, this will make LTT realise that he is dead and therefore leave Rands head before the Last Battle, it might sound a bit sketchy in principal but i don't know any logic that says this can't happen so therefore is a possibility.

[Gentled Ben]

The failed viewing and this viewing seems not the same.

I am curious as to why you view the two as separate.  If Min thought someone who was supposed to do something in the future was dead, why would she still think that they could do anything?  If they are dead they cannot fufill a viewing, therefore the viewing has failed.  (Keeping in mind that Min has no knowledge of people being able to return from death.)

Well, I know that one of the viewings is ambiguous in that is says he will almost certainly fail, so the woman being dead and gone is not a guarantee of Rand's failure. I know that at least one poster was trying to emphasize that distinction.

 

Concerning moderation, I've reported posts that were offensive, and I noticed later that Maj had come along and edited them, and I recall that Ol' Mike got banned for attacking another member's sexuality, so the moderation seems to work IMO. As far as flaming goes, most of us have thick skins, and for the rest, flaming back or goading the flamer into an out of control fit of pique are two strategies I've seen employed.  :D

As long as it doesn't become too personal, it just goes with being on the Internet, where everyone is Chuck Norris. <_<

 

 

[luftstark]

I just don't see any point in this discussion (as in most of the threads). It has lost it's meaning at the 6th or 7th page. At that point all arguments were laid out (just read and you will see) and ppl had taken sides.

 

No one has been "converted". Everyone has your own opinion. Therefore there is no point in relaying my argument about the viewings....

 

I do think it is most likely to be Moiraine, but i do believe we have no conclusive evidence to say so. It points to Moiraine, but it does not close other possibilities, as Lanfear.

 

So, if you want to know how i stand, read my posts on the first 7 pages ^^

 

And... what's going on? Is the Woman Dead and Gone suddently a DM moderator??

[Kivam]

I just don't see any point in this discussion (as in most of the threads). It has lost it's meaning at the 6th or 7th page. At that point all arguments were laid out (just read and you will see) and ppl had taken sides.

 

No one has been "converted". Everyone has your own opinion. Therefore there is no point in relaying my argument about the viewings....

 

I do think it is most likely to be Moiraine, but i do believe we have no conclusive evidence to say so. It points to Moiraine, but it does not close other possibilities, as Lanfear.

 

So, if you want to know how i stand, read my posts on the first 7 pages ^^

 

And... what's going on? Is the Woman Dead and Gone suddently a DM moderator??

 

;D

 

Didn't want to do this until everyone who's been following the thread had a chance to read it, but now that it's over, I'm splitting the moderation stuff out of this thread and moving it to another board.

[callandor]

I just don't see any point in this discussion (as in most of the threads). It has lost it's meaning at the 6th or 7th page. At that point all arguments were laid out (just read and you will see) and ppl had taken sides.

 

No one has been "converted". Everyone has your own opinion. Therefore there is no point in relaying my argument about the viewings....

 

I do think it is most likely to be Moiraine, but i do believe we have no conclusive evidence to say so. It points to Moiraine, but it does not close other possibilities, as Lanfear.

 

So, if you want to know how i stand, read my posts on the first 7 pages ^^

 

And... what's going on? Is the Woman Dead and Gone suddently a DM moderator??

:P

 

 

For everyone who doesn't want to read that, it was about Moiraine.  8)

[metallicafan08]

I always thought it was rather stupid that Min had this viewing of Moiraine that "failed" because she believes Moiraine is dead.  She says many times that it was the only viewing that never came true but she just accepts it and never seems to question it!! If EVERY viewing shes EVER had has come true and then she has one concerning Moiraine that doesn't come true because she believes Moiraine to be dead don't you think she'd be like "Hang on a minute, Moiraine must still be alive guys because i've never had a viewing that didn't come to pass!!" or at least if she believes shes dead must think she will come back somehow, surely??

[ROB_88]

or it might just make her think her viewings aren't as foolproof as she thought

[luftstark]

Min has, as it is naturel, doubts about her powers... She does not believe they are infallible... and she won't, coz it would mean that Rand is faded to die (since she has at least 2 viewings that indicate his death - The Alivia one and the "Dead and Gone" one).

[mb]

The failed viewing and this viewing seems not the same.

I am curious as to why you view the two as separate.  If Min thought someone who was supposed to do something in the future was dead, why would she still think that they could do anything?  If they are dead they cannot fufill a viewing, therefore the viewing has failed.  (Keeping in mind that Min has no knowledge of people being able to return from death.)

The failed viewing probably has a different task than this viewing.

Also: like I posted other times, Min's (or any character's) thought/belief/opinion/etc does not fulfill a viewing; but actual events.

The failed viewing I take to be a marriage with Thom since it would be the main kind of viewing Moiraine would want secret.

 

[Nimic]

Out of all the ambiguous viewings and prophecies in WoT, you chose this as the one to develop a crazy theory on? This must practically be the most sure fire thing in the whole of the Wheel of Time, if you don't count "Rand is the Dragon Reborn" (though I once saw someone genuinely suggest that maybe Mat was the Dragon Reborn).

 

 

[mb]

Out of all the ambiguous viewings and prophecies in WoT, you chose this as the one to develop a crazy theory on?

This is not the only viewing (or prophecy) that I debated about.

 

This must practically be the most sure fire thing in the whole of the Wheel of Time

To my knowledge, Robert Jordan did not comment on this viewing; and no one during the time I debated this provided a link with his opinion.

Unless the people that have access to the notes (or the upcoming books) tell differently, I am going think that the woman is (or shall be) dead in fact; not dead in opinion/belief/thought/etc.

Like I posted other times; in all other viewings, known identities are identified by name not by description.  Since this viewing provides only description for the person, I shall count that Min does not know who will fulfill it.

 

[Beren]

So, this is my first response to any thread on here so bear with me. I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I have a few things to offer that I did not see mentioned here.

 

I tend to agree that the "woman dead and gone" might not be Moiraine. I have this sneaking suspicion that Lanfear is going help Rand/Lews Therin at Tarmon Gaidon. There are several quotes from the book that make me think this is a distinct possibility.

 

First of all, when Rand is viewing the history of his ancestors through the Ter'Angreal in Rhuidean, it is mentioned that Lanfear did not always serve the DO. Now, this is true of all the Forsaken/Chosen, but this is the ONLY time I ever recall it being specifically mentioned. Perhaps a hint from RJ?

 

Second, Moiraine AND Lanfear fell through the same Ter'Angreal so if you accept Moiraine as a possibility (which I do), then Lanfear should be another acceptable possibility. Both of them are supposedly dead and gone.

 

Finally, there is the quote about no one being lost so far into the Shadow that they can not return. This is from right after Falme where Ingtar died. Perhaps Lanfear will turn from the Shadow due to her love for Lews Therin (supposing it actually is love).

 

Given these three points, I see an equal chance for the "woman dead and gone" to be Lanfear. I am not ruling out Moiraine by saying this. I am simply saying that both are possible options.

[Farslayer82]

So, this is my first response to any thread on here so bear with me. I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I have a few things to offer that I did not see mentioned here.

 

I tend to agree that the "woman dead and gone" might not be Moiraine. I have this sneaking suspicion that Lanfear is going help Rand/Lews Therin at Tarmon Gaidon. There are several quotes from the book that make me think this is a distinct possibility.

 

First of all, when Rand is viewing the history of his ancestors through the Ter'Angreal in Rhuidean, it is mentioned that Lanfear did not always serve the DO. Now, this is true of all the Forsaken/Chosen, but this is the ONLY time I ever recall it being specifically mentioned. Perhaps a hint from RJ?

 

Second, Moiraine AND Lanfear fell through the same Ter'Angreal so if you accept Moiraine as a possibility (which I do), then Lanfear should be another acceptable possibility. Both of them are supposedly dead and gone.

 

Finally, there is the quote about no one being lost so far into the Shadow that they can not return. This is from right after Falme where Ingtar died. Perhaps Lanfear will turn from the Shadow due to her love for Lews Therin (supposing it actually is love).

 

Given these three points, I see an equal chance for the "woman dead and gone" to be Lanfear. I am not ruling out Moiraine by saying this. I am simply saying that both are possible options.

 

Simply put (by many others) it makes no sense that Min was thinking of Lanfear when she states 'a woman dead and gone.'

 

And once again, Moiraine is even confirmed to be the woman in this 'failed viewing' by Rand later on. I really don't understand why it is so difficult for some to see. It is one of the most obvious things in the series.

[Wesley_O]

Most likely, Min had a viewing about Moraine, before she went to Finnland, that she could help Rand win the Last Battle. That being said, when she went through the door, everyone assumed her dead. Then Mat got a letter from Thom that was given to him by Rand who got the letter from Moraine, in it she says that she is not dead and talks about rescuing her. My guess is that the letter is not some false piece of information to lead him on some random hunt. The only reason that Min thinks that this viewing is false is because she thinks that she is dead. It would make a lot more sense if she were still alive and will be saved. I honestly don't see how anyone could get mislead by anything other than this...

[Arath Faringal]

It's because there is a very slight amount of reading between the lines required.  Very, VERY slight, but it's there.  And some people just can't see anything unless it's laid out in front of them with neon signs pointed at it.