On A Topic Done To Death...(FoH)

[Varaloth]

Hey Folks,

 

After my first read through of the series, some time ago I must admit to browsing these forums occasionally for anything that rested with my own ideas/theories about the up and coming book(s) and have read a fair few debates and theories on the ever debated Asmodean topic.

 

For myself, I find it hard to ever re-read a series of books as the fact that I know whats going to happen usually removes something from the experience for me, nevertheless I recently began reading WoT again and must say that I certainly don't regret it!

 

Anyway, to the point: Whilst reading Fires of Heaven again, I read through the chapter regarding Asmodean's demise and an odd idea stuck in my head...

 

Bashere. The way the chapter is written is that firstly we see Bashere and Rand begin their audience together and THEN we read the passage where Asmodean is killed. The thing that stuck though was that Bashere enters the meeting with Rand with a bottle of wine - and thereafter, Asmodean's thought about being in the storeroom/cellar (excuse my memory with precise details!) searching for a bottle of wine.

 

Now, I know that Robert Jordan stated that it was supposed to be an obvious thought pattern as to who killed him and this is just what my...instinctual, I guess, thoughts were at the time.

 

I know there are 101 reasons why Bashere wouldn't/couldn't have done it but I just thought I'd throw the idea out there for discussion just to hear others' opinions on the matter. The first problem of course being the order in which it was written, but of course there is no specific reference to saying one event happened after the other, but *shrug* it is always a possibility.

 

Regarding reasons or motives of course, there isn't really any way that Bashere could be one of the male Chosen (given their circumstances at the time) so he would most likely have to have been a Darkfriend or something else all together. Given Bashere's actions throughout the rest of the series and committing the idea to 'paper' I'm talking myself out of the idea more and more but it was just something that came to me on the re-read and has set me thinking, apologies again for bringing up something discussed umpteen times; I guess we shall just have to sit tight and wait in the end, but what harm is some (most likely) useless musing in the mean time, eh?!

[LordoftheMorning]

wow. I never even considered the killer to be a normal person. Asmo was weak but he could channel a little bit... Other than a Chosen, I always assumed maybe Slayer... The whole wine thing makes me think tho..

[Cockta]

That would wif in theory that Bashere is a DF, but didn't Asmo get disintegrated or something?

[Varaloth]

That would wif in theory that Bashere is a DF, but didn't Asmo get disintegrated or something?

 

It's kind of open to your own interpretation on it, managed to find my copy of Fires of Heaven (Glowing Embers, Pg. 887):

 

" 'You? No!' The word still hung in the air when death took him."

 

As to the 'You? No!' part, this is what led me to err away from believing it was one of the Forsaken simply because I personally would have thought he'd name them knowing them as he does, rather than referring to said person as 'You'. On that same train of thought, I found it interesting it was 'You' with a '?' rather than an '!' - I thought he'd be in a considerable amount of shock if it were one of the Forsaken.

 

Maybe I'm reading a little too far into it in any case; as I said was just my initial stray thoughts on it!

[Mercer]

I think it's a damned good theory. One I never considered, at least. I don't concern myself overtly with the whole Asmodean thing (as it doesn't really affect the overall plot), but I like the idea of it being someone not mega powered or out of the picture.

[Kadere]

Bashere couldn't have killed him for the same reason Rand couldn't have killed him. Bashere was talking to Rand at the time Asmodean died. He couldn't be in two places at once.

[LordoftheMorning]

" 'You? No!' The word still hung in the air when death took him."

 

That line always bothered me as well. The wording always seemed wrong. It just never crossed my mind that it could be a normal person especially Bashere. This is a good theory. About time someone had a new theory that actually makes me think...

 

Where did he stash the body?

[D24g0n]

Even if it was Bashere, i don't think killing a Asmo would make Bashere a DF.  It makes it more of a possibility, but you have to thank of the circumstances.

Bashere is a Borderlander, so he hates(assuming he isn't a DF) the shadow more than most.

It would not be completely out of character for him to straight up kill Asmo after finding out he is actually a Forsaken.  In fact, that is what almost anybody would do.

[Varaloth]

Bashere couldn't have killed him for the same reason Rand couldn't have killed him. Bashere was talking to Rand at the time Asmodean died. He couldn't be in two places at once.

 

Checking the chapter in question again, Asmodean mentions leaving Mat and Aviendah to be off in search of wine in the pantry. This would of course indicate that IF Bashere was to have been involved then it would have been after his meeting with Rand- which of course points to the fact that Bashere already had the wine when entering the meeting so why go in search of more afterwards?

 

As I said, when 'voicing' my thoughts aloud in the first post I only half believed them myself yet just wanted to get my initial interpretation of the incident down and ask for others' opinions. I do however think that the time constraint between Rand/Bashere meeting is up for debate, still, I believe the 'greeting' Asmodean gives his killer indicates it isn't someone he knows overly well i.e. Not one of the Forsaken or even Rand etc etc.

 

I think I've done a good job of talking myself out of this now, yet I can't entirely rule it out either.

 

Even if it was Bashere, i don't think killing a Asmo would make Bashere a DF.  It makes it more of a possibility, but you have to thank of the circumstances.

Bashere is a Borderlander, so he hates(assuming he isn't a DF) the shadow more than most.

It would not be completely out of character for him to straight up kill Asmo after finding out he is actually a Forsaken.  In fact, that is what almost anybody would do.

 

I also don't believe Bashere to be a Darkfriend, I don't intend to put any theories forward as to why he'd want to see Asmodean dead, just that it was the first person that sprang to my mind after noticing the references to the wines.

 

I think it's a damned good theory. One I never considered, at least. I don't concern myself overtly with the whole Asmodean thing (as it doesn't really affect the overall plot), but I like the idea of it being someone not mega powered or out of the picture.

 

Indeed, I agree its not overly important to the plot at all just seemed to tickle the back of my mind on the read through. As to the death not being down to the power, I also thought this by the choice of words used - Its very open as to what killed him 'knowing no more' could be equally due to the power or someone hitting him over the head/stabbing him.

 

Anyways, I do apologise for my errant thoughts on the matter!

[mb]

It seems most likely that Bashere's bottle was from his own camp.

 

Graendal seems the most likely candidate for Asmodean's killer.

The Structured section has a topic on this topic.  My comments are there.  Here is the link::

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,9967.msg928863.html#msg928863

 

[Cillian]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Moridin mean "death" or "the grave" in the old tongue?

 

" 'You? No!' The word still hung in the air when death took him."

 

Just thinking out loud, I don't know what to think when it comes to who killed Asmo.

[lordofsoup]

gholam maybe, i mean Asmo knew that one of the other forsaken moghendian to be exact had problems with one of them in the past, but I cant see sammeal doing it I mean he would not rick Rand finding him where he would be at a huge disadvantage.  And graedal would not risk it either i think for likely the same reasons

 

@cillian i dont think that Asmo knew Moridin all he knew was that Ishmael was dead

[Moghedian]

It would not be completely out of character for him to straight up kill Asmo after finding out he is actually a Forsaken.  In fact, that is what almost anybody would do.

 

Personally, I'd run away as fast as I could...

 

Bashere does sound like a reasonable possibility though...

[Jethro]

Can anyone tell me how much time passed between Asmo snuffing it and Taim turning up?

 

Bashere isnt a bad idea but if he isn't a Darkfriend, how did he find out who Asmo was? And its unlikely Bashere is in fact a Darkfriend because of Mins viewing. She said to Rand "If [bashere] dies, or turns against you..." Technically if he was a Darkfriend he had already turned against Rand

[Thor]

Elza is a darkfriend but still serves Rand with fanaticism for her own reason.  Each darkfriend is given a different mission, there's no reason to think that Bashere can't be one.  And Min has never seen Bashere to be an out and out good guy.

 

Bashere's a nice fresh idea, I like it.

[vasu619]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Moridin mean "death" or "the grave" in the old tongue?

 

" 'You? No!' The word still hung in the air when death took him."

 

Just thinking out loud, I don't know what to think when it comes to who killed Asmo.

 

Hey dude, I don't have a direct quote to give you, but RJ said straight out (with a disgusted expression :P), that Moridin didn't kill Asmodean. In any case, he also said that all clues that pointed to the killer were included up to FoH, and we aren't introduced to Moridin as yet here.

[Mr Ares]

It might interest you to know Bashere has been brought up before (and shot down before as well). Nevertheless...

The first problem of course being the order in which it was written, but of course there is no specific reference to saying one event happened after the other, but *shrug* it is always a possibility.

Actually, there is. Rand's POV has him looking out the window to see Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean. Bashere enters at the end of that POV. Then we cut to Asmo's POV of doom, so we know this must happen after Rand was looking out the window. The earliest it could happen is while Rand is about when Bashere enters. From Asmo's POV it doesn't seem likely that he stayed long to play for his unappreciative audience, and Bashere was, IIRC, opening the wine and had brought two goblets so the timing doesn't really seem to fit.

 

Elza is a darkfriend but still serves Rand with fanaticism for her own reason.

Yes, because Verin compelled her.

 

Can anyone tell me how much time passed between Asmo snuffing it and Taim turning up?

A fair while. I think about 30-40 days. 37 according to the timeline, and that's as good a number as any.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Moridin mean "death" or "the grave" in the old tongue?

 

" 'You? No!' The word still hung in the air when death took him."

 

Just thinking out loud, I don't know what to think when it comes to who killed Asmo.

Hey dude, I don't have a direct quote to give you, but RJ said straight out (with a disgusted expression :P), that Moridin didn't kill Asmodean. In any case, he also said that all clues that pointed to the killer were included up to FoH, and we aren't introduced to Moridin as yet here.

Yeah, RJ shot down that "death took him" was some sort of pun on Moridin meaning death. Shame on you for even thinking that, Cillian.

 

I believe the 'greeting' Asmodean gives his killer indicates it isn't someone he knows overly well i.e. Not one of the Forsaken or even Rand etc etc.

I think all we can reasonably take away is that Asmo saw someone he recognized, and didn't expect to see there, and who was capable of scaring him somewhat. I don't think we can really judge the degree of familiarity.

 

I found it interesting it was 'You' with a '?' rather than an '!' - I thought he'd be in a considerable amount of shock if it were one of the Forsaken.

I think '?' does imply a degree of shock - he knows this person, but doesn't expect to see him or her there.

 

It would not be completely out of character for him to straight up kill Asmo after finding out he is actually a Forsaken.

The problem is how did he find out he was a Chosen?

[Jethro]

Bashere is a nice suggestion-there is something to be discovered with Bashere I think, because of Mins viewing-but I dont think it was him. Mins viewing puts me off the idea-even though he serves Rand that doesnt mean he is loyal. If he is a Darkfriend he has turned against the Light, and effectively Rand, unless he is another Ingtar.

 

We need to look for every tiny hint on it. The only thing I can remember at this time is that early in the same book, at one of the Chosen meetings, Sammael said it could be arranged for someone close to Rand to die. And I would definitely say a teacher would be a good enough target.

 

Ever since it happened though, I've had my eyes on Taim for it-thats why I asked how long between Asmos death and Taims introduction. Asmo would most likely have recognised Taim and if Asmo saw Taim I can see his reaction being pretty much how it was considering Taim can channel. Anyway, Brandon Sanderson has declared that he plans to reveal who dunnit in the last book, so its only a matter of time.

[Mr Ares]

The only thing I can remember at this time is that early in the same book, at one of the Chosen meetings, Sammael said it could be arranged for someone close to Rand to die. And I would definitely say a teacher would be a good enough target.

Or a best friend, perhaps. An ashanderai wielding, wide-brimmed hat wearing friend. The attack happened - it was Melindhra's attempt on Mat with the dagger. The dagger with the bees on it. To draw Rand's attention to Sammael. On the other hand, Asmo is a manifest failure, as Rand doesn't even know he's dead (he thought he ran off), so there is certainly nothing to draw Rand's attention to Illian, which was the plan. Speaking of the plan, Rahvin is dead, Lanfear is dead, Sammael is waiting as bait in Illian...so where's Graendal at the end of FoH? What's she doing?

 

Asmo would most likely have recognised Taim

Why? And what do you think of Taim now you know how long it was?

[Hybrid]

Interesting theory.  There's another problem besides those Mr Ares pointed out.  The bottle of wine does not prove your theory, since we don't know if Asmodean actually found the wine pantry.  All we know is that he was wandering about looking for wine.  Since he enters the room and immediately runs into his killer, there is nothing that says that he found the wine (on the other hand, there's nothing that says he didn't either).

[Jethro]

Or a best friend, perhaps. An ashanderai wielding, wide-brimmed hat wearing friend. The attack happened - it was Melindhra's attempt on Mat with the dagger. The dagger with the bees on it. To draw Rand's attention to Sammael. On the other hand, Asmo is a manifest failure, as Rand doesn't even know he's dead (he thought he ran off), so there is certainly nothing to draw Rand's attention to Illian, which was the plan. Speaking of the plan, Rahvin is dead, Lanfear is dead, Sammael is waiting as bait in Illian...so where's Graendal at the end of FoH? What's she doing?

 

Why would they select someone they already have as a target though? And a Ta'veren at that? Its obvious they couldnt get hold of Rand, Mat and Perrin, so why would Sammael pick a target they're already having trouble getting at?

[GrandpaG]

Asmo is not dead.

 

"death took him."

 

He's with "death" (Moridin).

[Mik]

It was the creature that is Shaidar Haran/ Moridin.

I'll call him the Nae'Blis.

 

Means;

True Power, because it could. Undetectable, the wording of the phrase... everything has been said about it.

 

Motive;

1. Asmodean betrayed the Shadow. Traitors pay the dearest cost. They'll be dying for an eternity...and then some.

2. The Heart of the Dark always wanted to teach/ shape the Dragon Reborn. Having Asmodean do this on Rands own terms was a big cross through Shadow plans.

 

Opportunity:

Hell yes.

We know that Asmodean -in his mind- is still a Darkfriend. He never 'stopped being one of them'. He even admits it to himself twice, seconds before dying. See below;

 

Asmodean plucked random chords as Rand took a seat on a cushion facing him.

It was well to remember that the man had not changed, not inside, from the day so long ago when he had pledged his soul to the Shadow. What he did now, he did under duress; he had not come to the Light. “Do you ever think of turning back, Natael?” He was always careful of the name; one breath of “Asmodean,” and Moiraine would be sure he had gone over to the Shadow. Moiraine and maybe others. Neither he nor Asmodean might survive that.

 

The man’s hands froze on the strings, his face utterly blank. “Turn back? Demandred, Rahvin, any of them would kill me on sight, now. If I was lucky. Except Lanfear perhaps, and you will understand if don’t want to put her to the test. Semirhage could make a boulder beg for mercy and thank her for death. And as for the Great Lord—”

“The Dark One,” Rand broke in sharply around his pipestem. The Great Lord of the Dark was what Darkfriends called the Dark One. Darkfriends and the Forsaken.

 

Asmodean bowed his head briefly in acquiescence. “When the Dark One breaks free . . . ” If his face had been expressionless before, now it was bleak in every line. “Suffice it to say that I will find Semirhage and give myself to her before I’ll face the—the Dark One’s punishment for betrayal.” [oh oh the irony!]

 

[Moiraines Letter]

Lastly, be wary too of Master Jasin Natael. I cannot approve wholly, but I understand. Perhaps it was the only way. Yet be careful of him. He is the same man now that he always was. Remember that always.

 

Idly—but with a shiver, too—he wondered whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man. He did not think so. Immortality was gone. That was a gift of the Great Lord; he used that name in his head, whatever al’Thor demanded on his tongue. That was proof enough that he was himself.

.../ /...

It was not that he had been reborn as a new man at all, but he would cling to that tuft of grass on the cliff’s brink as long as he could. The roots would give way eventually, the long fall would come, but until then he was still alive.

 

He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine.

 

One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face.

 

“You? No!” The word still hung in the air when death took him.

 

So, we've established Asmodean was still a bad bad boy. He still belonged to the Shadow and if the other Chosen would let him, he'd join them -given half the change- in a heartbeat.

 

What;s funny, is that the Nae'Blis is the only being who can always find the servants of the Shadow. For 'where there is shadow, there may it go':

 

“Are you faithful . . . Bors?”

 

The hint of mocking in the name sent a chill down his backbone. “I am faithful, Great Lord. I cannot hide from you.” I am faithful! I swear it!

 

“No, you cannot.”

 

The certainty in Ba’alzamon’s voice dried his mouth, but he forced himself to speak. “Command me, Great Lord, and I obey.”

 

And later..:

 

“Wha . . . ” Carridin [bors] stopped to work moisture back into his mouth, to try bringing his voice back down to its normal register. “What are you doing here?” It still sounded shrill.

 

The Halfman’s bloodless lips quirked in a smile.[shaidar Haran v0,5, aka Ba'alzamon in Myrddraal form]  “Where there is shadow, there may I go.” Its voice sounded like a snake rustling through dead leaves. “I like to keep a watch on all those who serve me.”

 

…/ /…“I serve the Great Lord of the Dark, as you do. We both serve.”

“If you wish to see it so.” The Myrddraal laughed, a sound that made Carridin’s bones shiver..

 

If you disagree, think about how Shaidar Haran found Mesaana in Alviarins quarters....?

 

I think it's "obvious", especially if you consider that Shai'tan himself was the first to actually tell us - the readers- that Asmodean had bit the dust. (Demandred PoV)

Who better to inform him, then the creature standing right next to Demandred?

 

All the Nae'Blis had to do for Asmodean to know his worst nightmare was about to come true (he'd rather go to Semi), was show up as either Ishamael or Ba'alzamon...

And we know Ishy has a tiwsted sense of humor. (like me)

 

Cheers,

Mik

[Majsju]

In the real Asmo thread, it is clearly showed why neither Bashere, Moridin or SH could be the killer. Check it out, it is on the Structured WOT board, and everything said here has been said there, over and over again.

[Mik]

In the real Asmo thread, it is clearly showed why neither Bashere, Moridin or SH could be the killer. Check it out, it is on the Structured WOT board, and everything said here has been said there, over and over again.

Maj,

 

I've read that thread 3 times over.. and then some.

And you're right about Bashere; he couldn't have done it (although he is a Darkfriend)

The points for Graendal are as bogus as the rest of the lot, but they are the least bogus of all that came up in 150 pages worth of speculation.

 

About the 'over and over again';

The points against Shaidar Haran & Moridin are all dung if you consider they are one and the same being.

And if you take into acount that Ishamael has always been tied to Myrddraal from the very beginning of the series.

(as far back as the War of Shadow)

 

"Wherever there is shadow, there may I go"....

That's intuitively obvious to me.

 

Care to explain how Shaidar Haran found Mesaana in Alviarins room?