Anyone else mad at Alanna?

[Swigaro]

The situation with Alanna and Logain are not exactly the same.  Remember that the party that Elida sent to attack the Black Tower was under orders to gentle and execute everyone at the Black Tower, without a trial (a blatant violation of White Tower law).  I believe that Logain is aware of this fact.  Logain's response was a reaction to a blatant act of war.  Short of killing them all, there is really no better way to deal with the issue.  If he simply put them back on their horses and said, "O.K...  If you could go ahead and go back to the White tower, that would be great... Oh...  And why don't you go ahead and not come back and kill us all as soon as our backs are turned we would sure appreciate it..."  I am overstating things I know, but Allana's act was completely unprovoked, Logain's was a response to a threat.  While Logain certainly isn't a choirboy, the two instances are in no way morally eqivillant.

[anamul]

There isn't any justification of what Allana did. It was totaly wrong headed....simple minded...backed up by the usual white tower arrogant that we see among most of the Aes sedai...unfortunatly in Egwen too.

 

There refusal to see the defect in the great balance which is missing its male half is the cause of many complexity the white tower is facing now.

 

Allana acted like a spoiled child of a rich mob boss...there is nothing for it.

 

Comparing Logain act with Allana is completly out of proportion.

Logain was in a constant war with White tower and suffered a lot(wheather he deserved it or not) in Aes sedai hand. He had a grudge and he was provoked when they attacked BT.

 

Rand didn't attack WT....though he could have...but he is wise enough not to trigger global genocide. As powerfull as WT might be...A rogue Rand is far greater threat than WT. As Cadsuane herself has stated the fact several time.

 

 

 

 

[SvetSedi]

The situation with Alanna and Logain are not exactly the same.  Remember that the party that Elida sent to attack the Black Tower was under orders to gentle and execute everyone at the Black Tower, without a trial (a blatant violation of White Tower law).  I believe that Logain is aware of this fact.  Logain's response was a reaction to a blatant act of war.  Short of killing them all, there is really no better way to deal with the issue.  If he simply put them back on their horses and said, "O.K...  If you could go ahead and go back to the White tower, that would be great... Oh...  And why don't you go ahead and not come back and kill us all as soon as our backs are turned we would sure appreciate it..."  I am overstating things I know, but Allana's act was completely unprovoked, Logain's was a response to a threat.  While Logain certainly isn't a choirboy, the two instances are in no way morally eqivillant.

 

While I agree with you about Logain's actions being entirely reasonable given the orders that he was obviously given by Taim (wheather they came from Rand or not).  He came up with the best solution that he could given his options.

 

I do not agree about Alanna.    Several have already stated that her mental situation was in question at the time and I agree, but another factor is that Rand is a very powerful tavern.    People near him do unexpected things.    Even she said she did not know why she did it.

 

My view is that Rand needed to be bonded - to recieve the extra Warder strength that would help him hold off the madness and later to pull Alanna and the Rescue forces to Dumi Wells.    She has paid greatly herself by being "used" by the Patern to it's purposes.    Rand has had repeated thoughts anoud her and knowing that she is constantly crying - because he would not let her near him and she could always feel his ever increasing pain.    So don't be too hard on her.

 

But when it actually happened - I felt the same way "Oh Shit!    What did she do!"

[Great Lord of the Dark]

Aes Sadai are frickin @ssholes man!!!! They are self-centered think they are so great little jerks who need to be shoved into a locker or sprayed with pepper sprayed or thrown into a garbage disposal or made to live on the streets or just plain dang killed!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( If I ever had a Aes Sadai talk to me like they do in the bboks i would beat the frickin snot out of their sorry little asses!!!!!

[Lune]

I actually still don't quite understand why Alanna bonded Rand. Was it just a 'rebound' thing like when someone gets dumped (or in this case, their partner killed) they rebound onto the nearest suitable (sometimes unsuitable) person?

[Darth_Andrea]

If I remember correctly Alanna had been tempted to bond Rand since Faldara. Long before she knew he was the Dragon or a Ta`verin. She's Green Ajah after all, and yes I think that after she found out what and who he was it made the temptation impossiable to resist. And you have to add in what she was still feeling from the death of one of her warders. All combined I doubt she could have stoped herself if she wanted to. I don't agree with her bonding him at least not how she did it. And who knows if she had asked Rand he might have allowed it, it's not really likely I know but possiable. You must also consider one other fact, Alanna and most of the Aes Sedai believe Rand will die in TG and even knowing that she bonded him. There may be something deeper than we know yet. In some ways I feel sorry for her in others I want Nyneave to take a switch to her. Either way we will see what comes from it when AMOL comes out.

 

Darth_Andrea

[RobertAlexWillis]

Alanna bonded Rand so that she would have the option of Compelling him through the bond.  Its the same reason that she made comments about bonding Mat and Perrin ... she, like the vast majority of Aes Sedai, desperately wants to gain control of the situation.

 

Of course, she learned the hard way that Compelling a man who can channel isn't quite as easy as she expected.

[anamul]

Alanna bonded Rand so that she would have the option of Compelling him through the bond.  Its the same reason that she made comments about bonding Mat and Perrin ... she, like the vast majority of Aes Sedai, desperately wants to gain control of the situation.

 

Of course, she learned the hard way that Compelling a man who can channel isn't quite as easy as she expected.

 

Exactly.Other Aes sedai loose warders too....they don't leap to bond any one against their will to get over it. She is an Aes sedai, she is supposed to know the consequences of bonding and loosing and she is also supposed to control her emotional state. She acted like, as I said before...spoiled child of a rich mob(cosa nostra) boss.

 

The end result doesn't justify the deed. U can't just go and rape a girl and tell her and her fan that u did it for her own good. That there is some hideen good reason....pretty mad.

 

Or u can't just kill me and say ..."Well, I did u a favour....I forsee that your life will be a mass....he...he ...he.

 

She did to gain control....without any provocation... Rand is bonded to Min, Aviendha and Elayne as well....he doesn't need one more bond to fight TG.

 

Hidden reason...even in Fantasy have to be acceptable. RJ just can't go ahead and write....oh...thats why she did it....soo noble of her. He wouldn't have done it.

 

This was white tower arrogance to boot. Rand being Taveren doesn't mean that by kidnaping him Elaida has done him a favour or the world. If u say that Rand being Taveren caused Allana to do it...then others can say that Elaida has kidnaped him because she was affected by Taveren. And those sisters isn't to be blamed.

 

Oh no....u might also say that Padan fain stabed him because Rand was a Taveren.

 

 

[wvlr]

This was white tower arrogance to boot. Rand being Taveren doesn't mean that by kidnaping him Elaida has done him a favour or the world. If u say that Rand being Taveren caused Allana to do it...then others can say that Elaida has kidnaped him because she was affected by Taveren. And those sisters isn't to be blamed.

 

Oh no....u might also say that Padan fain stabed him because Rand was a Taveren.

 

Actually, the Taveren effect has an element of Proximity and spontanaity.    I do not think that Elida was anywhere near Rand when she gave that order and the AS that captured him worked on the plan for weeks.    So no there is no comparison there.

 

Spontanaity also does not apply to Padan Fain - he has been working on the same line since book one.

 

Also, neither the AS that captured Rand or Paddan Fain say immediately afterward "Oh no!  What have I done?"

 

Nope!    No Tavern Effect whatsoever in your examples.

[anamul]

Actually, the Aes sedai who captured Rand...some of the showed remorse afterwards.

 

I don't remember reading..Allana saying...oh no what have I done...

 

Verin was there too.

Rand is constantly in contact with Aes sedai. That doesn't mean when-ever any of them do anything to Rand shouldn't be blamed or attributed to Rand's being Taveren.

 

What I was trying to say that Rand being Taveren have nothing to do with Allana...or Sevana...or any one who comes around him being stupid.

 

So basically if we condon Allana's act besign Rand's being Taveren and decide she is innocent as a baby....well imagin what other Aes sedai can do. They will deserve it....each of the Aes sedai will deserve to bond, torture Rand.

 

All we will say...bravo...Rand being Taveren did it all. So they should be excused.

 

No wonder the Ashaman are paranoid.

[bjclinton]

Right or wrong, I'm surprised that noone has thought of the benefits that Rand has now that he's bonded....i'm not saying this is why she did it, but what he has gained physically as a result of the bonding may very well help to save his life at TG. We all know that Warders have very specific physical attributes improved as a result of the bond (can go longer without sleep or food and still be at full strength, etc.)...maybe its not such a bad thing???

 

In any event, I certainly don't think it was right of her to do it, but comparing what she did to rape is a bit extreme....

 

I wonder how it'll play out. There are really only 3 options:

 

1. The benefits of being bonded will help Rand survive at some point (we've already seen him benefit from this by the way)

2. His bond will be passed to another (Elayne)

3. She will release him of his bond

 

I guess one of them could die or course, thus severing the bond, but I find if unlikely. Too many convoluted prophesies that hint at whether or not he will actually die for me to believe otherwise, and I can't see RJ killing off Alanna and putting Rand through all of that. It would contradict the "happiness" that Cadsuane is going to help him find.

[The winds of Time]

a difficult call overall...

 

one question to come to mind that I'm pretty sure we all think of, what WERE her intentions of the bonding? here is the balance between goods and bads.

 

Good: another one who can look after rand and be a gauge to tell if he is in pain, danger, or in a foul mood.

Alanna her self can be used by the bond as a "messanger" so to speak of rands coming to a palace, this in turn gets nobles ready to meet him and he can cut to the chase, like in KoD

being bonded helps keep checks on alanna and possibly any other sisters positions and emotions if close enough (angry if insulted and so forth) it also means that alanna is NOT a darkfriend and wouldnt kill rand due to the warder "whiplash" effect of the bond snapping

 

Bad: bond works 2 ways, shows where rands at every step of the way

big time weak spot, if alanna is killed then the whiplash would be harsh on rand especially with his oath not to kill women.

alanna bonded without permission under pretences of healing to get close enough, like candasune said "its the equivelent of rape of a woman" this disgusting phrase of bonding really puts into perspective on how far out of line Alanna is.

 

so.. now we look and see that both sides have equal pretences. in my own opinion i think that alanna did what she thought was right, however, the just dispicable way of bonding cannot be overlooked, final line, Alanna deserves scorn.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

alanna has been going through hell ever since she bonded Rand...good, she DESERVES it

[lou]

yes, alanna was wrong. verin who was present derided her over her actions, then immediately started planning on how to use the bond. i am not sure who was worse, alanna or verin.

of course, the bond did come in handy when perrin was trying to locate the rand-in-a-box. rand ended up handling the AS at that time, but there were a heck of alot of shaido hanging about as well.

rand has found other uses for alanna as well. i dont think she came out very well in this situation.

[DemandredFO]

I forgot about the Ta'veren thing, I agree that does not totally excuse Allana, because that may have happenned anyway or at least was a possibility.  However, the people that say Ta'veren made no difference are as guilty as Egwene when she hears stories of AS swearing to rand and says Ta'veren is NO excuse.

[anamul]

I forgot about the Ta'veren thing, I agree that does not totally excuse Allana, because that may have happenned anyway or at least was a possibility.  However, the people that say Ta'veren made no difference are as guilty as Egwene when she hears stories of AS swearing to rand and says Ta'veren is NO excuse.

 

No one is saying Taveren is no excuse....all we are saying is that it doesn't justify the situation or the crime of bonding a man against his will.

 

Egwene, would say that, since she was able to resist a pull by ceasing saider. May be thats why she thinks other should have or might have resisted and that Rand might have used compulsion(wrong headed, I know but thats Egwene).

But we also don't know if Taim had or hadn't used any compulsion to help them along. Rand wouldn't have noticed. Very few Aes sedai know or recognise a compulsion.

 

Also, all of the captive aes sedai was affected by the Taveren effect.

But as I said before...the way RJ wrote that particular section...there was no indication of Taveren effect. He has already created a bad background for Allana....she was planning to bond them even before she lost her warder.She just followed her old plan when she got hold of Rand. RJ didn't need to make those description about Allana on previous books. Those mention of her manner and planning makes me sure it was no Taveren pull.

 

Allana got what she deserved....and she is very usfull now...but that doesn't moraly justify what she did.

 

The point is she did wrong and as one of the jury I find her guilty as charged.  ;D ;D ;D ::)

 

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

The point is she did wrong and as one of the jury I find her guilty as charged.   

 

aye!