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Verin's "Mistake" - Dragon Reborn - Spoiler warning...


Rab Coplin
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In TDR in the chapter titled Questions we see Elayne going through the list of stolen ter'angreal. we're lead to believe that the fact that the ring is missing from the listsuggests Verin may be Black Ajah as the girls are wonderous as to why she left it out.

 

But surely after giving it personally to Egwene the need to put it on the list wasn't there.

 

 

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The ring was not one of the ter'angreal stolen by the Black Ajah, and thus should never have been in those lists--indeed, the girls never question that at all.

 

The existence of the ring had been removed from all records over four hundred years prior to the beginning of the story. Verin found it years prior, and no one else knew it existed.

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Her actions. Her POV's.

 

Edit. Forgive me, that seems overly dismissive. I'm just tired because this topic is done to death.

 

Verin's actions completely rule out that she is a Black Sister or a darkfriend. Her intentions are made clear by the sequence of those actions--compelling sisters to aid Rand, attempting to poison Cadsuane and stopping when she learns Cadsuane's true intentions (again, of aiding Rand). Her consideration that a Forsaken being made a captive of the Light being beneficial only finalises it.

 

Verin is not Black Ajah. She's peculiar, and with her own agenda, but she's no darkfriend.

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THe girls directly refer to the fact that Verin had not included the ring on the list. They try to come up with reasons for this such as she may have forgotton or she may be BA.

 

I'm not saying I believe she is BA. What I'm questioning is the reaction of the girls in the first place when Egwene reveals the ring to Elayne and Nyneave.

 

Verin gave it ot Egwene and told her of it's link to Corianin Nedeal. There should have been no suspiscion of Verin in my view. Or am I missing something obvious in the passage..?

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I'm willing to concede alot of my ideas are out there and not easily substantiated, but this dismissal of Verin's ambiguous behavior is beyond me.  Everything she does is open to many interpretations, and I believe that this is 100% intentional on RJ's part.  Verin's goals are Verin's; I don't think that she is for the Light; but I'm not convinced she is for the Dark, either.  There is some other goal at work here, and I am anxious to find out what it is.  I believe that her 70 year project holds the key.  Can't wait.

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I'm willing to concede alot of my ideas are out there and not easily substantiated, but this dismissal of Verin's ambiguous behavior is beyond me.  Everything she does is open to many interpretations, and I believe that this is 100% intentional on RJ's part.  Verin's goals are Verin's; I don't think that she is for the Light; but I'm not convinced she is for the Dark, either.  There is some other goal at work here, and I am anxious to find out what it is.  I believe that her 70 year project holds the key.  Can't wait.

 

I'm sorry, but if she's not for the Shadow, which she simply cannot be considering her fervent support of Rand (regardless of personal reasons), then it's really pretty pointless at that point to dictate whether or not she is for the Light or Shadow. She is not a Darkfriend. Regardless of her intent and whatever personal gain she gets from it, she supports the Light at the very least by proxy.

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Way back when I first went on WoT fansites - this must be going back 10 years now - the big theory is that there was a secret cadre of 'Lightfriends' whose allegiance is above and beyond the Aes Sedai and Verin was one of them, able to work outside their strictures and limitations and not bound by the Three Oaths. I'm guessing this theory fell by the wayside due to it being a bit silly and there's been no real clues to it in the later books, and it would be pure corn for it to suddenly be revealed in the final book.

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Edit. Forgive me, that seems overly dismissive. I'm just tired because this topic is done to death.

You, for one, are never overly dismissive.

 

As for Verin, there is ample evidence that she is not a Darkfriend.  I do not see many of her actions to be ambiguous, but rather typical Aes Sedai behavior.  Aes Sedai seldom explain the reasons for their actions, as we have seen, and those reasons are not necessarily obvious ones.

 

I agree, the "Lightfriends" theory is ridiculous.  Rather, Verin is likely an old, knowledgable, and clever Aes Sedai, one who uses the Brown Ajah as a convenient means for others to underestimate her.

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Yeah, I think you're reading into the passage something that's not there.

 

Verin and Caddy are like 200 and 270 years old respectively and have spent years and years researching. Neither care much for WT machinations or politics. Both think, it seems to me, that WT thinking is too stilted, or stunted, stuck in it's ways. Both have studied in more depth than any others currently (cepting Adeleas and Vandene maybe) Prophecy etc. Verin has gone all over Randland chasing down information (like her knowledge of Portal Stones for instance). Independent of each other and of Moiraine, Siuan and Leanne, they do NOT think Rand should be under direct tower control. These are my thoughts not spelled out in the books

 

ALL are non traditional AS. All go their own way. Each has knowledge she doesn't care to share. But each in her way is trying to insure Lights victory over Dark. They all know Rand is the key and each one is trying to help him, while also trying to not have another Breaking, by observing him closely and trying to have some plan to stop him if he does go nuts.

 

All these idiosyncrasies cause each, at times, to appear at least odd or dangerous to other characters and by that to readers. And I'm sure that was RJ's intent.

 

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Honestly, Verin is actually one of my favorite Aes Sedai to observe because you're not really sure what she is up to, and she is very good at simply slinking into the background of a situation and observing.

 

Verin is so much more clever and intelligent than she lets on, and is most definitely one of the best Aes Sedai for Rand to have on his side. She's also one of only a few Aes Sedai in the entire series who doesn't seem to be quaking in her boots when interacting with Rand. I doubt she spent much time in the Tower at all during those 70 years of whatever she's been up to. I'm interested in finding out what her role in all this has been.

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THe girls directly refer to the fact that Verin had not included the ring on the list. They try to come up with reasons for this such as she may have forgotton or she may be BA.

 

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The girls question why Verin didn't note that so many of the ter'angreal on the list were last studied by Corianin Nedeal, but the ring wasn't stolen by the Black Ajah--it should never have been included on that list, and the girls never questioned its absense.

 

I'm willing to concede alot of my ideas are out there and not easily substantiated, but this dismissal of Verin's ambiguous behavior is beyond me.

 

No one is dismissing her actions, were dismissing the explanation that she is Black--because that answer is precluded by the text.

 

She's nonetheless a very mysterious, very dangerous lady.

 

Way back when I first went on WoT fansites - this must be going back 10 years now - the big theory is that there was a secret cadre of 'Lightfriends' whose allegiance is above and beyond the Aes Sedai and Verin was one of them, able to work outside their strictures and limitations and not bound by the Three Oaths. I'm guessing this theory fell by the wayside due to it being a bit silly and there's been no real clues to it in the later books, and it would be pure corn for it to suddenly be revealed in the final book.

 

Mmm, the Purple Ajah theory--frankly i don't see it. Verin is a loner who never gets close to anyone. She's acting on her own--to my mind, but yes the idea is still possible.

 

Verin and Caddy are like 200 and 270 years old respectively and have spent years and years researching.

 

Cadsuane is 295 years old, and Verin is somewhere between 132 and 140. (note, if you got your numbers off the FAQ, they are wrong due to a misprint of Cadsuane's thoughts reguarding Alanna's age.)

 

Neither care much for WT machinations or politics. Both think, it seems to me, that WT thinking is too stilted, or stunted, stuck in it's ways. Both have studied in more depth than any others currently (cepting Adeleas and Vandene maybe) Prophecy etc. Verin has gone all over Randland chasing down information (like her knowledge of Portal Stones for instance). Independent of each other and of Moiraine, Siuan and Leanne, they do NOT think Rand should be under direct tower control. These are my thoughts not spelled out in the books

 

I agree completely... in fact if you actually pause to concider each of Verin's odd actions they are, one and all, directed at keeping the Aes Sedai from gaining control over Rand.

 

Concider the things she does and the effect that they have.

 

1. The Lie. Verin had no need to say it whatsoever--the Shienar practically worship Aes Sedai, she could have told them the a pink bunny rabit named Lulu had sent her and they would have bowed and whispered honours to the Sister. About the only thing it directly achieves is that it disrupts everything Moiraine was trying to achieve by letting Rand go off 'by himself', and thus drives a wedge between Rand and the one Aes Sedai he might be willing to obey.

 

And she does the opposite to. Pretty much every second word out of her mouth to Moiraine and Siuan seem to play on the prejudices and fears Aes Sedai have about men who can channel. Seriously, go re-read the chapters in tGH and late tDR--i never realised how much before because those comments come out of pretty much every Aes Sedai's mouth at some stage in the series, but we know Verin doesn't think those things, which makes those comments calculated--and calculated at keeping Moiraine and Siuan wary of Rand.

 

2. Corianin's Notes. You all know what i think they contain. Verin conciders destroying them, and then she conciders giving them to Egwene. The reason she conciders destroying them is obvious. Questioning the Tower, directly acting against its best interest and in the interest of a man who can channel is against both Law and custom, it would see her stilled. But why does she concider giving them to Egwene?

 

I suspect that like Moiraine, Verin realises Egwene will become a driving force in the Tower--and that given Egwene's connections with Rand, she would have strong reason to redirect the Tower toward a more successful, less disaterous interaction.

 

3. Warning Perrin. This may or may not be a Verrinism, but Verin warns Perrin about Alanna--likely because she knew the woman was concidering bonding him. It could just be an act of decency, but it does continue with the same segragation of herself from Tower loyalties.

 

4. She incites the Salidar Embassy into that disasterous confrontation with Rand--Merana herself notes it. This seems strange--she knew it would drive them apart, yet later she compels Aes Sedai to help him. This was the incident that led me to this thought. She is acting to bring the Aes Sedai into helping Rand, but she is also acting to keep them from gaining control of Rand.

 

5. She compels the Aes Sedai into aiding him. Self evident what that means.

 

6. She conciders killing Cadsuane but stops specifically when Cadsuane reveals that she intends to act in his best interest, and that her actions and her bullying had nothing to do with getting control of him. Again, acting to stop Aes Sedai hubris and willfullness from taking over.

 

7. She herself warns him in her letter to beware all Sisters.

 

Ultimately every one of her peculiar actions lend themself to one thing--Verin acting to keep Aes Sedai from taking over, and yet still stay involved in the fight against the Shadow.

 

 

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THe girls directly refer to the fact that Verin had not included the ring on the list. They try to come up with reasons for this such as she may have forgotton or she may be BA.

 

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The girls question why Verin didn't note that so many of the ter'angreal on the list were last studied by Corianin Nedeal, but the ring wasn't stolen by the Black Ajah--it should never have been included on that list, and the girls never questioned its absense.

 

 

True, the ring should never have been on the list. However the list was given to Egwene by Verin with the information about Corianin being the last person to have tested 13 of them. Therefore Verin did note Corianin's involvement...

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Moiraines letter warns Rand about all Aes Sedai, "whether its Alviarin or Verin" meaning even though Verin may seem to be in his side Rand should still be cautious. Verins warning to Rand was earlier I think, and less specific

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Verin's letter is in KoD, and states thus. "Be wary of other sisters, including those that have sworn fealty to you. Such an oath means nothing to a Black sister, and even those that walk in the Light may interpret it in ways you disaprove of. You already know that few see it as meaning obedience in all things, so whether you follow Cadsuane's advice or not, I repeat that you should follow mine. Be very wary."

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The problem that I have with accepting that Verin is acting in Rand's best interest as Fact is three fold:

 

1. All the mystery that RJ intentionally built around her character

 

2. We've already seen one Black Sister act on Rand's behalf and swear fealty to him and do everything in her power to see him, as we think, succeed, when in fact it was out of her BA selfishness to see him get to the Last Battle so that the DO can defeat him once and for all. We finally realize that in WH during that sister's POV (i forget her name, but she's the White Sister that sword realty to Rand) Maybe Verin isn't so different?

 

3. There seems to be something very ominous about her 70 year mistake. Until we know what that was, we cannot rule anything out.

 

4. RJ could have very easily provided us with the type of concrete evidence that we have from so many other main characters (Thom, Moiraine, The Wonder girls, poeple that Min has viewed), yet he has gone out of his way to give us those assurances- this leaves a very intentional gray area.

 

Until those questions are answered, one cannot state that we know anything for fact.

 

On another note- when is the last confirmed time that Min has had a viewing of Verin? I just finished rereading all of the books except the last one which i'm starting tonight, and I cannot recall.

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I agree that Verin is one tough nut to call.    For the most part I agree with Luckers that as many POVs that we see of her and her actions - it is hard to believe that she would be Black.

 

But for the same reasons that BJ mentioned here - I just can not be completely certain.

 

She is one of my most favorite characters and I will be really upset if that 5% possibility of her turning out to be Black comes true.    I hope that RJ either completely wrote her part of AMoL or that he at least left really good notes on her.

 

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2. We've already seen one Black Sister act on Rand's behalf and swear fealty to him and do everything in her power to see him, as we think, succeed, when in fact it was out of her BA selfishness to see him get to the Last Battle so that the DO can defeat him once and for all. We finally realize that in WH during that sister's POV (i forget her name, but she's the White Sister that sword realty to Rand) Maybe Verin isn't so different?

 

 

 

You are thinking about Elze. Incidently, her desire to help rand is because of verin compelling her to do so. And because verins Compulsion is a homemade version very far from the one we have seen the Forsaken use, it does come with its flaws. For example, the one Compelled must find the motivation herself. In Elzas case, this shows as her convincing herself that it serves the DO to serve Rand.

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