About Ta'veren in general?

[Safia al-Maaz]

I remember someone saying that ta'veren do not stay ta'veren their entire lives.  Where does this information come from?

[CUBAREY]

It's referred to several times in the books. Basicly once the person has acomplished his role in weaving the pattern his abilities (talent?) disappears.

[Angel of Death]

I think its first mentioned by Loial in the Queens Blessing inn.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Indeed, nobody is born Ta'veren, they become it. Rand, Mat and Perrin became Ta'veren shortly before Moiraine and Lan arrived in the Two Rivers.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not entirely.

 

While it's generally true that nobody is ta'veren for an entire lifetime, consider Rand.

 

Born on a snowy mountainside during the last stages of a chaotic war, to a mother who died giving birth, he is somehow found before he succumbs to the elements by a warrior who is inclined to care for him rather than kill him or leave him to die.

 

That's just a teeny bit too fortunate to be simple coincidence.  I'd say he was born ta'veren, went into remission shortly after birth, and then relapsed in early manhood.

[Majsju]

RJ has confirmed twice that not even Rand was born ta'veren, he became it shortly before Moiraines arrival in Emonds Field.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Jordan also maintained that there are understandable reasons for everything that happens in WOT.

 

The only mechanism he gave us to make all of the remarkably fortunate circumstances of Rand's birth and survival possible is ta'verenism.  The one soul who must survive in order to defeat the Dark, somehow does so under impossible circumstances.

 

"He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood."

 

It's a warrior descended from Manetheren stock who finds him.  Not just any random soldier, but probably the only soldier in the entire war who has such lineage.

 

But, of course, there was nothing but simple coincidence to explain all of that.

[Majsju]

And still, RJs word trumps all homegrown theorising. Rand was not born ta'veren, end of story.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Depends on how you parse it.

 

Remember, an Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth they tell you may not be the truth you think it is.

 

All I said was that, at birth, he was ta'veren long enough to attach the one thread from all of those available that fulfilled the prophesy about his birth.  I didn't say he'd remained ta'veren for his entire lifetime.

[Guest Dreadlord]

No. A prophecy is a prophecy, one way or another it will be fulfilled. Prophecies are nothing to do with Ta'veren. Rand wasnt born Ta'veren, there is only one way you can interpret that.

[Majsju]

Depends on how you parse it.

 

Remember, an Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth they tell you may not be the truth you think it is.

 

All I said was that, at birth, he was ta'veren long enough to attach the one thread from all of those available that fulfilled the prophesy about his birth.  I didn't say he'd remained ta'veren for his entire lifetime.

 

And RJs words are that noone is born ta'veren, and Rand (as well as Mat and Perrin) only became ta'veren just before Moiraine appeared.

 

There is no room for wishful interpretation here.

[Eval Ramman]

It's a pretty big stretch to say that Rand survived on the slopes of Dragonmount not being ta'veren.  I'm assuming that they would be harsh conditions.  But RJ did say that nobody was born ta'veren and that the three Edmond's Fields boys became ta'veren just before Moiraine appeared.  So that kills that idea but I do applaud the effort Bob.

[DemandredFO]

Maybe Tigraine was Taveren, after all a soft wetlander was rescued instead of being left to die.  The only wetlander to date to become a Maiden and her son was saved by possibly the only soldier of lost Manetheran there.

[Elgee]

Would this not fall under the Weaving of the Pattern? Rand had a purpose, and the Pattern was woven to accomodate that. Him being Ta'veren could not have affected all those people who did things to make it happen (ie Tigraine going to the Waste, Tam joining the Companions, etc) BEFORE he was born, so Tam finding him there was not Rand being Ta'veren, it was the pattern.

 

hmmm ... don't know if I'm making any sense - going to bed now  :D

 

To sleep, perchance to Dream  ;D

[Valinthros]

The key here is this:

 

What is the purpose of a Ta'veren?  To bring the weaving of the patter BACK into place.  Since the pattern was doing as it should have at the time, there was no need to create a Ta'veren to interfere and bring things back on track.  The pattern spans ages, big things like Rand's mother Tigraine going to the waste and becoming a maiden... they dont need to be influenced by Ta'veren, the wheel has already spun it out.  Now, if Tam had not shown up when he did, or veered off the path at the wrong moment, it is possible the wheel would see, and adjust to get him back on track.  Making Rand Ta'veren from birth really isnt needed when you see that the pattern was already handling his birth, without the need for much twisting.

 

Hope this helps!

[SqueeEGA]

If Rand were Ta'veren much longer than he has been all of the Emonds Fielders would have stories about things happening to him that just should not have happened. 

[Bob T Dwarf]

From the Glossary:

ta'veren: A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads to form a Web of Destiny.

From New Spring - The Novel:

"He is born again! Gitara cried.  "I feel him!  The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount!  He is coming!  He is coming!  Light help us!  Light help the world!  He lies is the snow and cries like thunder!  He burns like the sun!"

From The Great Hunt:

..."I saw the boy, you know, in the courtyard during the Welcome.  It is one of my Talents, seeing ta'veren  A rare Talent these days, even more rare than ta'veren, and certainly not of much use.  A tall boy, a fairly handsome young man.  Not much different from any young man you might see in any town."  She paused to draw breath.  "Moiraine, he blazed like the sun.  I've seldom been afraid in my life, but the sight of him made me afraid right down to my toes.  I wanted to cower, or howl.  I could barely speak.  Agelmar thought I was angry with him I said so little.  That young man ... he's the one we have sought these twenty years."

 

The author uses identical expressions to describe Rand at two different points in his life.  One of which clearly identifies that description as meaning he is ta'veren when the observer sees him.

 

Nobody and nothing suggests that he has been ta'veren every minute of the intervening time.  But at minimum, the wording makes clear that he was ta'veren at the instant of his birth so that Tam would find him and their life-threads become intertwined.  Having achieved that, the Wheel then wove their life-threads normally until the time came for the Dragon Reborn to achieve his ultimate purpose.  Rand seems to have been ta'veren again since slightly before the main sequence books begin.

 

 

 

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

I think Gitara was just using dramatic words and Siuan saw an aura of sorts around Rand due to her talent of seeing ta'veren. Interesting to point out though.

 

My own views:

The author does not lie. We will have to accept what he says.

Rand's very conception was using a thousand coincidences.  In book 4, there is a particularly interesting scene where Rand thinks exactly that, Cairhienin giving water to the Aiel, the Aiel giving the tree to the Cairhienin, Laman cutting the tree, the Aiel coming to war, the battle reaching dragonmount, Tigraine giving birth at that precise moment etc.....so many coincidences to fulfill prophecies.

 

A thousand threads woven for a thousand years just to achive that conclusion.

 

I think Rand is ta'veren so that he has at least some chance of defeating the DO. Without it, he is no different from any other strong male channeler, you could say.

[Luckers]

People seem somewhat confused about what ta'verinism is. It is not dues ex machina, it does not control the fate of the world around the ta'veren and bend it to their benefit.

 

Ta'verenism causes chance to twist. Nothing more. Within a set area around the ta'vearen (called ta'maral'ailen) which varies depending on their strength, chance is altered. Both to the good of the ta'veren, and the bad. It loosens the bonds of chance--that is its purpose. It loosens the fabric of the pattern allowing the Wheel more leeway to weave the pattern, thus enabling the wheel to change the direction of the weaving when it is drifting.

 

It does not cause things like enabling a newborn babe to survive a snow storm.

 

Bob, RJ stated that Rand became a ta'veren only just before Moiraine arrived at Emmonds Field. This is fact. He also literally used the example of how bad it would be for a baby to be ta'veren to explain exactly why babies did not become ta'veren, this too is fact.

 

Newborn Rand was not ta'veren. Gitara viewing and Siuan's ability to see ta'veren are two different talents, and looked upon two different aspects of Rand's existence. Give over.

[RAND AL THOR]

People seem somewhat confused about what ta'verinism is. It is not dues ex machina, it does not control the fate of the world around the ta'veren and bend it to their benefit.

 

Them being ta'veren does bend the Pattern to their benefit on many occasions throught WOT. While they do increase the chances of both good and bad occuring, significant events tilt in favour of a ta'veren. The best example would be where people talking to Rand tell him all sorts of things they never would. Same with Perrin and Birgitte in T'A'R. 

Inducing someone to tell you what they normally wouldn;t tell you (especially where what they say benefits you) cannot be called increasing the probability of both good and bad events from occuring. It is specifically for the benefit of the ta'veren.

 

As it is stated frequently: A ta'veren drawes what he needs to him. Hence so many guys in the Black Tower.

[Luckers]

Them being ta'veren does bend the Pattern to their benefit on many occasions throught WOT. While they do increase the chances of both good and bad occuring, significant events tilt in favour of a ta'veren. The best example would be where people talking to Rand tell him all sorts of things they never would. Same with Perrin and Birgitte in T'A'R.

 

Inducing someone to tell you what they normally wouldn;t tell you (especially where what they say benefits you) cannot be called increasing the probability of both good and bad events from occuring. It is specifically for the benefit of the ta'veren

 

I never said that it does not work to their advanatage at times--i said that it does not exist specifically to serve their benefit. It is not increasing the probability of good an bad in the same instance, but as it increases good, so too must it increase bad. It loosens, it does not act in a proactive manner towards their intentions. As Min states, good must balance the evil... but so too must the evil balance the good.

 

Inducing someone to speak as you want--yes. But have you paused to concider the luck of the Aes Sedai in being able to spirit Rand away. Convincing the Maidens he'd fled, convincing Sorilea to not check any closer on the channeling in the house, because of their constant channeling. What of him loosing a hand? He couldn't jump aside because Min was there, and he specifically states that despite his intention to tell her not to come, he allows it. Love, yes--but all effects of ta'verenism are the result of normal posibilities enhanced.

 

This is a fact, my friend. RJ stated it, and given the realities im inclined to believe him.

 

As it is stated frequently: A ta'veren drawes what he needs to him. Hence so many guys in the Black Tower.

 

No, he doesn't. A ta'veren twists the chance of those who might have come to him as he needs--but he's as like to twist it negatively as good. Whether it is good or not entirely depends of the flow the pattern wishes to move.

 

Furthermore, Rand's ta'maral'ailen could not be responsible for the number of men at the black tower--it could be responsible for the recruits he initially gained in Caemlyn--Damar and the rest--but the influence of his web of destiny cannot influence that many people, it simply does not cover enough ground. The reason the Black Tower found so many recruits is that with one percent of men able to channel, more than a hundred thousand men have the ability in the greater west lands area.

 

Even able only to gain the fools willing to channel and support the dragon that allows for a thousand men to be found.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Luckers -

 

Re-read the definition for ta'veren.  Nowhere does it say that once someone becomes ta'veren they remain so for the rest of their life.  Nor does it anywhere say that becoming ta'veren is something that can only happen to somebody once in their lifetime.

 

But, it does say that a sufficiently strong ta'veren could affect everyone alive.  There is no absolute limit to the range of their effect.

 

Now, look at Rand's birth.  Gitara's Talent is Foretelling... seeing things that will come to pass in the future.  She gets a vision of something that has already happened.  Totally different thing.  Because Siuan and Moiraine are present to hear her articulate that vision, the entire course of their remaining lives is changed.  Because Tamra hears it, she does something unprecedented - she fabricates a birth bounty as a way to institutes an ongoing search for that baby.  Tam gets drawn in, changing the entire course of his life.

 

That's a minimum of five life-threads that got woven around his at the instant of his birth, thus beginning his Web of Destiny and changing all of theirs.  And, that is all the Wheel required to happen immediately, so once accomplished, the ta'verenism was removed, and all of those life-threads were allowed to follow their new courses in a normal fashion.

 

So, Rand wasn't born ta'veren in the sense that it is innate and always present.  But, he was given a brief period of ta'verenism at birth.

[Elgee]

Now, look at Rand's birth.  Gitara's Talent is Foretelling... seeing things that will come to pass in the future.  She gets a vision of something that has already happened.  Totally different thing.  Because Siuan and Moiraine are present to hear her articulate that vision, the entire course of their remaining lives is changed.  Because Tamra hears it, she does something unprecedented - she fabricates a birth bounty as a way to institutes an ongoing search for that baby.  Tam gets drawn in, changing the entire course of his life.

 

That's a minimum of five life-threads that got woven around his at the instant of his birth, thus beginning his Web of Destiny and changing all of theirs.  And, that is all the Wheel required to happen immediately, so once accomplished, the ta'verenism was removed, and all of those life-threads were allowed to follow their new courses in a normal fashion.

 

So, Rand wasn't born ta'veren in the sense that it is innate and always present.  But, he was given a brief period of ta'verenism at birth.

 

And the foretelling Gitara had that sent Tigraine to the Waste (to name but ONE example of things that happened BEFORE Rand was born, but led directly to his birth and subsequent raising)? Obviously that could not have been Rand being Ta'veren, which invalidates your above hypothesis.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

How so?

 

It's unknown exactly what Gitara foresaw regarding Tigraine.  The Wheel putting things in place so that it's possible for something to happen is a far cry from having that thing actually happen in a particular fashion.  Whatever Gitara told Tigraine, it only resulted in Tigraine going to the Waste.  One small step in a chain that didn't culminate until after Tigraine was dead.  And something that has nothing to do with Gitara later having a vision of his birth after it had occurred.  From what she said, Gitara didn't even know that Tigraine was the mother.  As far as the Wheel is concerned, it doesn't seem to have mattered who the father was, simply that it was some Aiel.

 

Gitara's Foretelling about Tigraine only sets up the circumstances for his birth.  And that's only half of the prophesy.  "Born of the ancient blood..."

 

It took a whole lot of later finagling for the Wheel to arrange for the second half of the prophesy to be fulfilled.  "... and raised by the old blood."

 

And, that's all ta'veren really is.  A term to explain the needed extemporaneous finagling the Wheel needs to do from time-to-time.

 

Newborn Rand was the person around whom the Wheel of Time wove all those life-threads.

[Elgee]

So you're saying that some of the things that had to happen was due to Rand's Ta'verennes (is that a word?) (even though RJ said it's NOT), but not the other things? That makes no sense to me.