About Ta'veren in general?

[Majsju]

A wetlander woman is allowed to become a far'dares'mai.

Despite being pregnant, she is allowed to follow the clans into battle.

A farmer from the Two Rivers goes against all custom, and leaves to become a soldier.

 

Gosh, Rand must have been born such strong ta'veren that his pull on the pattern went back in time...And, so strong that he actually made RJ lie to us...

 

::)

[Bob T Dwarf]

As I said before, Maj, "born ta'veren" can be taken to mean "innately ta'veren."

 

Since we don't know how Jordan interpreted it, and since all of the circumstances surrounding his birth and subsequent life require such a huge amount of good luck, it's fair to say he was ta'veren for a short period at his birth.

[Majsju]

As I said before (as well as others), RJ said flat out that Rand only became ta'veren just before Moiraine appeared in Emonds Field.

 

But hey, perhaps RJ interprets "just before" differently than we do...

[Guest Dreadlord]

It is a prophecy, thats all. In the prophecy it says born on the slopes of Dragonmount, of the old blood but not raised by the old blood. That means Tam was supposed to be there, not an act of chance, ie not Ta'veren. Tam picking Rand up was set in Stone for many years before it happend. Ta'veren twists in fate and chance are spur of the moment things. Rand wasn't Ta'veren before Mat or Perrin.

[Bob T Dwarf]

A prophecy says what will happen, not how it will happen.

 

Jordan gave us a universe without miracles.  Everything that happens is the result of understandable mechanisms.

 

The definition for ta'veren tells us that it's something the Wheel does as needed.  The recipient has no control over if, when, how much, or how long.  All of that is the doing of the Wheel.

 

Ta'veren-ness ( to borrow Elgee's apt term ) is the mechanism the Wheel uses to accomplish what it needs done at a particular moment that would otherwise require a miracle.

 

Rand's survival and the effect that the Dragon being reborn had on people not present for that birth would have required a miracle if it were not for ta'verenism.

[Majsju]

Tam finding Rand on Dragonmount is probably the least miraculous event of all those concerning his birth.

 

Far Dares Mai allowing a wetlander to join their ranks, instead of treating her as they treat all other wetlanders - Miracle.

 

Janduin completely breaking custom by allowing Tigraine to follow him and the others onto battle - Miracle.

 

Laman deciding to carve himself a comfy little chair out of a tree that was supposed to be more or less sacred - Miracle.

 

Tam completely breaking custom by abandoning his life as a farmer to go adventuring, in little time becoming a Blademaster and one of the highest ranking officers in the Illian army, just in time for him to face the Aiel on the battlefield - Miracle

 

Compared to these, Tam finding Rand is quite easy to explain. Tigraine being just hours away from giving birth would not have been able to walk far from where the Aiel were. Ie she would have given birth in close proximity to where the Aiel quite recently had been seen. Now, I have never served in an army, but even I can see the interest Tam as an officer would have in having the area thoroughly scouted. And from what we have seen of the Emonds Fielders tracking abilities, Tams skills at this are at a level that it would be a massive loss to have him barking orders from a comfy tent. And that would be quite out of character for him, he would go out scouting the moment after he had given the order.

 

No wonder RJ could dismiss the notion of Rand being ta'veren at this point, basic logic and a decent knowledge of the books pretty much gives it away.

 

 

Oh, and having ta'veren being what makes miracles happens sounds an awful lot like Deus Ex machina. Which is exactly what RJ said ta'veren is not.

[RAND AL THOR]

I never said that it does not work to their advanatage at times--i said that it does not exist specifically to serve their benefit.

 

You said precisely that, actually:

 

it does not control the fate of the world around the ta'veren and bend it to their benefit.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No, Maj - miracles require the direct intervention of a diety.

 

Anyone with a thorough understanding of the books knows that Jordan never allows the Creator to directly intervene.  Anything that requires intervention lies in the bailiwick of the Wheel.  That's why it was created.  And given the powers it has.

 

And, as stated repeatedly, it's just a very sophisticated machine, not a god of any sort.

 

[Majsju]

I recommend actually reading posts before replying, since you managed to completely miss (or perhaps intentionally skip, which is even worse) the actual point.

 

But I am not really surprised...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Again with the snideness?

 

Is that really proper behavior for a Moderator?

 

We all got your point, Maj.  My point, and that of a few others, is that your entirely superficial reading of what Jordan wrote has left you with more than a few erroneous ideas.  Your posts in this thread illustrate merely one of them.

[Majsju]

So if you got the point, perhaps attempt to adress it instead of talking about something that is not actually there.

 

Lets try it again, from Tigraine running off to the Waste til Tam finding Rand on the slopes of Dragonmount, there is a good deal of events that are so extremely coincidental that they can be describes as miraculous. And yet, the only one you think must be the work of ta'veren is the one that is easiest to give a logical explanation. Or did Rands ta'vereness work backwards in time for the others?

 

Coincidence is a natural part of the books, we have loads of extreme coincidences that we can be pretty gosh darn certain have nothing to do with ta'veren. Just take everything the wonder girls have encountered. We know none of them are ta'veren, and yet they constantly run into the perfect person at a crucial point, or as a setup for later events (like when Elayne found out about the Windfinders being able to channel). Coincidence happens, a lot.

 

As for "superficial" reading, RJ flat out stating "Rand only became ta'veren just before Moiraine appeared" does not really leave any room for interpretation. Unless you want to suggest that he is lying to us.

 

 

[Mysterious]

It was not coincidence, though I understand what you are try to convey Maj. Coincidence implies a high level of chance and/or probability.

 

This was "Prophecy" (a highly subjective term but will do for the purposes).

 

Both the Shadow and Light have been actively manipulating events to create the conditions for Tarmon Gai'don to come about according to their own agendas.

 

Event A must be followed by Event B so Event C can come about. This has been going on since during the Breaking. The creation of the Eye as well as the journey of the Aiel being one of the first actions of the Light. The Trolloc Wars and Ishmael's hand in the destruction of Hawkwing's Empire and the War of the Hundred Years as Jalwin Moerad can be seen as the various examples of the Shadow's hand at manipulating events.

 

And Bob we do have RJ saying that Rand, Mat and Perrin became ta'veren one month before Moiraine came to Two Rivers.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[RAND AL THOR]

The Pattern and Wheel work such that events that must happen are somehow brought about. As I mentioned way back, the events leading to Rand's birth took place over several years WELL BEFORE Rand's birth: eg. tigraine going, laman cutting, etc...

 

Rand's ta'vereness has nothing to do with this. As Majsju pointed out, how can it be so when he hasn't even been born yet?

 

It is prophecy and the Wheel at work-bringing in the conditions so that The Dragon may be reborn on the slopes of dragonmount.

 

This book has too many coincidences.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The answer Jordan gave that everybody refers to, but nobody will post is:

The Wheel creates ta'veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren't born ta'veren. Can you imagine being around a ta'veren who is teething? <shudder> It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta'veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta'veren are part of the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta'veren are created. I can't really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta'veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern. Ta'veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel "sees" as the necessary corrective. And, no, ta'veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina. It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man.

 

First requirement: You have to be alive.  So, any ta'veren working couldn't be Tigraine because she had died giving birth.  Next, the context makes clear that Jordan is using "born" to mean innate or inborn.  Something that is innate exists continuously from birth.  Rand is not innately ta'veren. 

 

Now, back to the definition for ta'veren:  A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads to form a Web of Destiny.

 

Does Tam's thread get woven around Rand?  Yes.

Does Gitara's thread get woven around Rand?  Yes.

Does Tamra's thread get woven around Rand?  Yes.

Does Siuan's thread get woven around Rand?  Yes.

Does Moiraine's thread get woven around Rand?  Yes.

 

That's five threads at a cursory glance.  Thus Rand's birth qualifies according to Jordan's own definition as a ta'veren event centered on Rand.  The Age Lace having been directed along the proper path to conform to the Pattern, the Wheel then quit weaving more life-threads around Rand until such intervention was again necessary.

 

End of story, and end of my participation in this thread.

[Majsju]

And once again,

 

Rand only became ta'veren just before Moiraine appeared. -RJ

 

Not "Rand became ta'veren again..."

 

But if you want to believe RJ is lying to us so your little wishful "theory" can work...