Cadsuane

[Bob T Dwarf]

And if she had done nothing, the forsaken would not have needed to work together, any of them could just have blasted Rand with a lightning bolt (which they tried, fortunatly Someone held a shield saving Rands butt. But perhaps that was his ta'veren at work... ;D)

 

So, lessee... she had enough common sense to erect a shield to protect herself, Rand, Nynaeve and anyone else in the immediate vicinity at a time when they were expecting enemy channelers, and that somehow makes her a military genius ???

 

She dispersed her units.  Essentially at random.  Left them to their own devices with no covering orders.  Essentially inviting the enemy to defeat them in detail.  Verin very nearly let herself and her unit get killed because she allowed herself to be deceived by appearances and nearly let Graendal get off the first shot because Verin was dithering about what to do.  The most basic order in that situation is, "If it moves, shoot it!"  Cadsuane, the military genius, didn't even know that much.

 

Had any of those dispersed units faced any kind of coordinated assault, the attackers would have been through them like a hot knife through butter.  Then, with the cat among the pigeons, and no clue by the other units how to respond, it would have been all over but the squabbling over the bones.

 

Yup, Cadsuane did a mighty fine job of guarding Rand, all right.

[Majsju]

From encyclopaedia-wot:

Cadsuane leaves her home in Ghealdan to help pursue and capture Logain. She then heads north to Saldaea and helps capture Mazrim Taim. (ACoS,Ch19, KoD,Ch18)

 

So where does it say that she took charge of the Saldean army? Where does it say that she had even the smallest of influence of the strategy?

 

If we go by your reasoning, Bashere does not know jack about fielding an army or winning a war, since he was losing. I suppose rand should just send him packing.

 

Yup, Cadsuane did a mighty fine job of guarding Rand, all right.

 

::)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes. I've already quoted that - and more.

 

KoD - Ch 18 -

"The title is his by birth," Cadsuane said without looking up from her embroidery.  She would know; she had helped capture him back when he was calling himself the Dragon Reborn, him and Taim both. ...

 

Now, it's possible, given the wording that the "him and Taim both" only means that both were calling themselves the Dragon Reborn

( which they were ), but the overall context seems to say that she'd had a hand in both captures.

[Bob T Dwarf]

So where does it say that she took charge of the Saldean army? Where does it say that she had even the smallest of influence of the strategy?

 

If we go by your reasoning, Bashere does not know jack about fielding an army or winning a war, since he was losing. I suppose rand should just send him packing.

 

 

Have we EVER seen Cadsuane in a situation where she doesn't immediately take charge of everyone and everything?  We're supposed to believe that in this one single instance she sat quietly in the background and didn't? ???  Just to suit your private notion of how wonderful Cadsuane is??? ???

 

The one extended thing she did out of her own good sense was to gather up everyone and everything that was left and find them a safe place to lay-up while they recovered.

 

It's not her fault that one of those who figured out how to find them is a fink at best and somebody far worse at worst.  We can't lay the Trolloc attack at her feet.

[Majsju]

Cadsuane appeared in ACOS. Have we ever seen her try to take charge of Rands military decisons, other than telling him to stop using balefire?

 

We have not, because her "interference" is on a personal level. When Rand has decided to do something, she supoorts him the best she can, as with the cleansing, the meeting with "Tuon" (both occassions where Rand would have either died or been captured without Cadsuane) etc.

[RAND AL THOR]

Cadsuane's strategy in the Cleansing could have been better. She was reduced to pointing wherever she felt a man channel etc.. which would have been next to useless if the Forsaken had co-ordinated and come at them together.

 

Her methods succeeded due to the absence of co=operation amongst the Forsaken. If they had teamed up, her defenses would have been blasted apart.

 

Her efforts are admirable and were successful but could have been better.

[Asmo]

How can anyone harbor the ridiculous notion that Rand intended to do the Cleansing without a guard?

 

The sheer fact that he brought Callandor clearly implies that he meant to have the loyal Asha'man defend him while he did the Cleansing. With Callandor, even the Forsaken would have been destroyed. Perhaps he didn't factor in Callandor's flaws, or he meant to bring some of the Dragonsworn sisters as well. Either way, he clearly didn't mean to do this just by himself and Nynaeve.

 

Cadsuane didn't do all that bad. If the Forsaken came together, she could point them out and have Narishma's circle wipe them out at once - Moiraine estimated Rand with Callandor could handle all thirteen, and clear evidence suggests thus. If they came individually, attacked from afar, or brought along Shadowspawn, her own inverted shield and detection as well as the individual circles sent out to patrol the perimeter could handle whatever came at them. The only two casualties were caused by two completely unpredictable factors: a woman channeling saidin, and one of the Forsaken having an angreal. Without them, it is a very real possibility that Cadsuane's group would have went through unscathed. She did fine, or as good as can be expected under the circumstances.

[DemandredFO]

Verin was verin I don't know if the death in verin's circle would have been prevented if someone else was in control.  I think however the death of Ebin would have been prevented if he had been given control like Damar.  They are not bound by foolish oaths and it was extremely stupid not to think anyone extra was a Darkfriend.

[RAND AL THOR]

Verin was verin I don't know if the death in verin's circle would have been prevented if someone else was in control.  I think however the death of Ebin would have been prevented if he had been given control like Damar.  They are not bound by foolish oaths and it was extremely stupid not to think anyone extra was a Darkfriend.

 

Excellent suggestion. The circles should have had the Asha'man in control. They were free to attack no matter what. But then again, the AS would never agree to that. They would likely see themselves as tools used by male channelers.

 

[benr]

Verin was verin I don't know if the death in verin's circle would have been prevented if someone else was in control.  I think however the death of Ebin would have been prevented if he had been given control like Damar.  They are not bound by foolish oaths and it was extremely stupid not to think anyone extra was a Darkfriend.

 

Excellent suggestion. The circles should have had the Asha'man in control. They were free to attack no matter what. But then again, the AS would never agree to that. They would likely see themselves as tools used by male channelers.

 

 

It would seem to me that if an AS knew that the one power was to be used as a possibly offensive weapon, killing a potential foe before the AS was attacked, that the oath would keep them from joining such a circle.  Apparantly not, though.   

[Asmo]

Eben's death would have been prevented if he had control because he could sense saidin in Halima and have a faster reaction time. It had nothing to do with the Three Oaths or anything. Like I said before, just two unpredictable factors in favor of the Forsaken.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

It would seem to me that if an AS knew that the one power was to be used as a possibly offensive weapon, killing a potential foe before the AS was attacked, that the oath would keep them from joining such a circle.  Apparantly not, though

UNQUOTE

 

Well, techincally the Oath presents no problems here because everyone at the Cleansing was expecting an attack of some sort. When they originally joined the circle, they didnt use it as a weapon to join it. That aside, they all knew they would be attracting unwanted attention and seeing as the Oath says you can wield the Power as a weapon to defend your own life then by all means they could join the circle anyway, seeing as the circle was there specifically to defend themselves. Not an issue at all

[RAND AL THOR]

Absolutely. They were definitely expecting to be attacked and knew that their lives were in imminent danger of being snuffed out.

[balefireruinssteaks]

the fault lies in the arrogance of Aes Sedai.  Verin says that a captured Forsaken would be better because she wants the knowledge.  Elayne, Nynaeve, Egwene, Siuane and Leane made the same mistake by letting Moghedien live "to gain knowledge".  Instead of just frying Grendael where she stood (if Verin's circle was strong enough) they tried to capture her, not having a frame of reference for how powerful the Forsaken could channel the One Power.  Grendael not only survives an attack from three linked channelers, but she kills one of them, too.

 

The Oaths were indeed not a factor because everyone, as stated already, expected to be attacked.  Cadsuane even says it after Rand begins.  "It will begin soon, I fear.  they will be feeling that all the way in Tar Valon"

[Luckers]

How can anyone harbor the ridiculous notion that Rand intended to do the Cleansing without a guard?

 

He approached none of his supporters but Nynaeve about the issue--thats enough champ, so whilst i agree with your comments about Callandor, im forced to dismiss the casual arrogance of your assumption. Sorry mate--there is more than enough evidence for people to harbour the notion of Rand approaching the Cleansing unaided.

 

Have we EVER seen Cadsuane in a situation where she doesn't immediately take charge of everyone and everything?  We're supposed to believe that in this one single instance she sat quietly in the background and didn't?  Just to suit your private notion of how wonderful Cadsuane

 

Yes, aside from the Cleansing i cannot remember a single instance where Cadsuane takes charged....

 

 

Cadsuane's strategy in the Cleansing could have been better

 

How so? What else could she have done?

 

the fault lies in the arrogance of Aes Sedai.  Verin says that a captured Forsaken would be better because she wants the knowledge.  Elayne, Nynaeve, Egwene, Siuane and Leane made the same mistake by letting Moghedien live "to gain knowledge".  Instead of just frying Grendael where she stood (if Verin's circle was strong enough) they tried to capture her, not having a frame of reference for how powerful the Forsaken could channel the One Power.  Grendael not only survives an attack from three linked channelers, but she kills one of them,

 

Frankly, i disagree. The value of the knowlege gained is clear--Moghedian lives on as a threat, but the spread of knowledge makes every Aes Sedai an equal enemy except in the degree of strength. Loss versus gain--sorry, massive gain.

[Bob T Dwarf]

How can anyone harbor the ridiculous notion that Rand intended to do the Cleansing without a guard?

 

He approached none of his supporters but Nynaeve about the issue--thats enough champ, so whilst i agree with your comments about Callandor, im forced to dismiss the casual arrogance of your assumption. Sorry mate--there is more than enough evidence for people to harbour the notion of Rand approaching the Cleansing unaided.

 

Since things unfolded as they did, it's even more arrogant to assume that Rand would have done it alone.  We simply don't and can't know what Rand would have done had Cadsuane and her posse not shown up.

 

Have we EVER seen Cadsuane in a situation where she doesn't immediately take charge of everyone and everything?  We're supposed to believe that in this one single instance she sat quietly in the background and didn't?   Just to suit your private notion of how wonderful Cadsuane is.

 

Yes, aside from the Cleansing i cannot remember a single instance where Cadsuane takes charged....

 

Then your memory is very faulty.  Try Chapter 18 of A Crown of Swords when Cadsuane first appears for starters.

[Guest]

She is just you're typical, stuck up, "overly high opinion" Aes Sedai. I don't know if anybody else mentioned it, but I think I read somewhere that many Aes Sedai believed her long dead.

[DemandredFO]

balefireruinssteaks, If Nyneave had simply fried Moghedien when she captured her, one of the most powerful channelers the light has would have been hobbled.  Moghedien was the one that broke Nyneave block.  This is one of the VERY FEW times I will defend Egwene.  I despise her but in this instance she did right.

In your other case I agree Verin was stupid she did not know Greandal's strength.  Unlike the other case were the do in fact know that Nyneave can best Moghedien.

[RAND AL THOR]

balefireruinssteaks, If Nyneave had simply fried Moghedien when she captured her, one of the most powerful channelers the light has would have been hobbled.  Moghedien was the one that broke Nyneave block.  This is one of the VERY FEW times I will defend Egwene.  I despise her but in this instance she did right.

In your other case I agree Verin was stupid she did not know Greandal's strength.  Unlike the other case were the do in fact know that Nyneave can best Moghedien.

 

But that was an unintended consequence so we cannot attribute that to Egwene.

 

However, I agree that the knowledge is too great to be lost. Imagine someone ising up from the sea and claiming to be from Atlantis will all the supposed advanced technology that they possessed. How would we react? Knowledge is all!

 

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Knowledge is a GOOD THING, but all?

 

Nazi medical experiments on prisoners probably established a certain amount of baseline data on human tolerances to many things.  The post-war world, rightly, decided those experiments were atrocities.

 

Then there are those who consider knowledge dangerous.  Both Christians and Moslems are thought to have had a hand in the eventual destruction of the Library of Alexandria because in each case certain books were deemed heretical.  Between both religions, the Library had ceased to exist by the eighth century AD.

 

The Christian patriarch who is believed to have destroyed at least part of the Library in the fourth century was also supposed to have been beatified in large part because of that destruction.

 

There's an ongoing debate at present about the appropriateness of human stem cell research.

 

Lotsa questions throughout history about the value ( or at least the appropriateness ) of knowledge.

 

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Unfortunately I have no knowledge about those events. But I shall provide a basic example.

 

A she-wolf learns various things during her life: how to hunt, how to eat effectively etc...

 

She gathers knowledge for survival.

 

When she gives birth, she teaches her offspring what she herself learned from her own mother and also from her own experiences. By passing on knowledge with way, she ensures that her pups may survive.

 

Knowledge could be hard to define. Perhaps you may say that eveything you know is knowledge? That makes it valuable indeed. There is an old saying in Tamil that no matter what is taken away from you, your knowledge will always remain with you.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Moghedien was the one that broke Nyneave block

UNQUOTE

 

Wasnt it when Nynaeve and Lan were on the boat? Im sure it was Lan that did it. Im sure she was with Lan the first time she channels without being angry, and Lan was there, and Moghedien wasnt. I thought it was Lan who did it subconsciously

[Vemynal]

moggy balefires the ship and nyneave breaks her block in order to survive

[benr]

Yes, she was very close to drowning and finally submitted her will, allowing her to open to the one power without being angry.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

QUOTE

Moghedien was the one that broke Nyneave block

UNQUOTE

 

Wasnt it when Nynaeve and Lan were on the boat? Im sure it was Lan that did it. Im sure she was with Lan the first time she channels without being angry, and Lan was there, and Moghedien wasnt. I thought it was Lan who did it subconsciously

 

she broke her block in the cabin of the sinking ship by giving up and preparing to die(ala the surrendering aspect necessary for saidar).