Cadsuane

[benr]

I have long been somewhat troubled by Cadsuane's sudden appearance.  So much of later threads are forshadowed that (on third, fourth, and subsequent) read-thrus, I kept looking for some clue of her existence in earlier books.  I haven't found any.  Was she a "late addition", inserted to enhance the story, or have I missed something?

[Guest leebarr]

I think she was put in to help move the story along

[Guest Dreadlord]

I certainly don't think Cadsuane is a plot device at all, if thats what you mean. As for why she isnt mentioned, most Aes Sedai thought she was long dead if I remember correctly, hence her not being mentioned

[benr]

Yes, I guess you hit the nail on the head.  I think she was a plot device - albeit a good one!  The idea that most AS thought her long dead is a good explanation for the story, but is one that works well if the character is added as a plot device.  All this is minor, of course.  She plays an integral role in Rand's development, and her interaction with other characters (Min, the Aiel) are very good.  If you are expanding a series from a trilogy to a quadtrilogy, there need to be some additions.  RJs incorporation of her into the story would be seamless, if not for the jolting suddenness of her introduction.

[aevogt]

The answer is simple.  Horses and rumor don't move that fast oer long distances.

 

Cadsuane was in Saldea hunting Mazrim Taim, several thousand miles by horse from anywhere Rand was, after Logain was captured, which coincided with the middle of TEoTW.

 

Rand's identity as the DR is a secret until the end of the second Book and he is not proven to be who he is until the end of the third. 

 

If she learned Rand was the Dragon Reborn (and verified, as it were) within a month of him taking the Stone and Callandor via her sizable network of eyes and ears, and she left Saldea on the hour, which for her would have been likely, she would have arrived in Cairhien right about the time that she did.  By the earliest she could have been made aware, Rand would have been in the Waste for some time.

 

Further, Rand spends the entire fourth Book in the Waste and the fifth and sixth Books Traveling back and forth between Cairhien and Camelyn, toying with the Aes Sedai embassies, during which time she would have been tracking him only by rumor of his whereabouts. 

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but the actual amount of time that elapsed between the taking of the Stone and Rand's kidnapping could not have been more than a few months, during which Cadsuane gathered her entourage and made her way to where rumor said the Dragon Reborn would be located

 

It makes sense to intruduce her at that time and little sense to do otherwise.

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

Was she with Logain's procession in Camelyn or had she already left for Saldea by that point? It would be ironic if she just missed him.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Yes, I guess you hit the nail on the head.  I think she was a plot device - albeit a good one!

UNQUOTE

 

I wasnt saying she was a plot device in the first place though. Cadsuanes long term purpose, the way I see it-her role in the story if you will-is to change Rand from being hard and emotionless to being strong and capable of dealing with his problems better. That doesn't further any particular plot that I can see. And don't say it will further the plot of Tarmon Gaidon because that can be said about everyone in the whole series.

 

I see Cadsuane as an almost-replacement for Moiraine, but while Moiraine helped Rand deal with the nobles, Cadsuane will help him deal with himself, and his own personal problems.

[benr]

Getting back to this after a while...I don't think Caddy is effective; she bothers me, and is one of the least believable (for me) characters in the books.  There are many threads discussing this, but to me the main problem is that, despite all of the back stories written in after the fact, she always has seemed to be written in by someone other than RJ - she just doesn't fit.

[Vambram]

I completely disagree. To me, Cadsuane does indeed happen to be a most believable character, and I know without any doubt that she was written by none other than the Dragon himself, Robert Jordan.

[bjclinton]

I completely disagree. To me, Cadsuane does indeed happen to be a most believable character, and I know without any doubt that she was written by none other than the Dragon himself, Robert Jordan.

 

....I think "The Creator" would be a more apt title here than "The Dragon," but maybe that's for another thread  ;D

[benr]

Yes, of course she was written by RJ.  Who else could it possibly be written by?  My point is that she was an addition to the story, not someone that was in RJs original cast of characters,  and then her history was back written to explain her sudden appearance.  There is absolutely no forshadowing of her existence; I would have thought that Moiraine would have at least warned Rand to look out for her.  This is truly a minor point; the background story is well presented, and she does further the story.  I am at a loss, however, to rationalize her dominance of all AS, and the vague claims of handling multiple male channelers by herself.  Maybe AMOL will explain some of this to me.

[Majsju]

Considering how important Cadsuane is to the story, I would say it is impossible that she was not originally in RJs plans.

 

And why would Moiraine "warn" Rand about her? Look at when cadsuane appears in the story, pretty much every single Aes Sedai in Cairhien believed she was dead, why would Moiraine be any different?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Exactly. It would be abit strange if Moiraine were to say to Rand "Oh, just in case you meet any dead people, theres this woman called Cadsuane..."

 

Besides, Moiraine told Rand to be careful of ALL Aes Sedai, especially Verin. So why would she warn him about someone whos dead? "Shes dead Rand, but you never know."

 

And I certainly think Cadsuane was DEFINITELY part of the original cast. Its not even a question-Cadsuane has a very definite purpose, one that will have a big impact on Rand

[Luckers]

Wasn't it especially Alviarin? From my memory she cited Verin as the most trustworthy seeming Aes Sedai--be as wary as Verin (who seems cool and helpful) as Alviarin (who is clearly up to no good).

 

But yeah, i agree about Cadsuane.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ah my memory is abit fuzzy, but it may even have been Alanna. Not sure though

[Majsju]

It is Verin and Alviarin. But I think they were more chosen because Verin was the Aes Sedai Rand had had the most interaction with, while Alviarin had just sent him a very suspicious letter.

[aevogt]

Yes, of course she was written by RJ.  Who else could it possibly be written by?  My point is that she was an addition to the story, not someone that was in RJs original cast of characters,  and then her history was back written to explain her sudden appearance.  There is absolutely no forshadowing of her existence; I would have thought that Moiraine would have at least warned Rand to look out for her.  This is truly a minor point; the background story is well presented, and she does further the story.  I am at a loss, however, to rationalize her dominance of all AS, and the vague claims of handling multiple male channelers by herself.  Maybe AMOL will explain some of this to me.

 

Considering that RJ had the entire series outined and mapped out, Winternight to Tarmon Gaidon, before he started writing it, and that Cadsuane has become such an integral part of the plot, thanks to Min's viewing, I find it dificult to believe that he wrote the first 6 books and then just decided to throw a major character into the mix.

 

As for her dominance, by custom, sisters defer to strength in the Power.  For her entire career, something like 270 year, she has been the most powerful Aes Sedai in any setting.  Barring the Amrylin Seat, whom she rarely encounters as a wanderer away from TV, she is, by custom, ALWAYS in charge of any gathering with more than 1 As present. 

 

As for her success, she has a bag od tricks that make locating and capturing a man who can channel practically a walk in the park

 

She has a ter angreal that tells her ifda man who can channel is present

She has a ter angreal that points to a channeler

She has a ter angreal that disrupts weaves if they attack her

She has an angreal ensuring that she will be stronger than any, possibly every, male channeler she encounters.

 

Her strength in the power give her dominance over any female channeler and her bag of tricks gives her dimonance over any male channeler.  All of these things will, of course, change once the wondergirls take the oaths and she recognizes them as full sisters but being in charge is a hard habit to break.

 

 

 

 

[anamul]

Cadsuanu's Terangreal collection is what agitated me most...still does. Usually when people refer to an experiance person....it is usualy the person, not what he/she gained...like a magic lamp.

 

It would have been nice if RJ introduced some one who was strong only by virtue of experiance and philosophy. Hell...even a six year old can be tougher  than any with these Terangreal.

 

And yeah, what-ever RJ said, Cadsuanue was a later addition...it is obvious.

RJ didn't plane for the series to go in for more than 3/4 books at first.

 

Also, Remember the scene with Moraine and Mat....at least when she discovered he had a Terangrel like Cadsuanue...she would have commented....even if to herself.....so RJ didn't invent Cadsunue at that point.

 

 

[Luckers]

I'm sorry, but thats not really sustainable. Mentions of Tuon--by name--in book two, prophecies involving the Seanchan in book three, the introduction of various major figures--Alviarin, Teslyn, Joline--as early as book two. The Choedan Kal shown in book two. The constant mention of Perrin's Axe/Hammer choice in books two, three and four. the dragons and herons mentioned in book two....

 

Whether he initially intended it to be a trilogy or not, the degree at which he mapped it out is clear.

 

 

[Majsju]

Whatever RJ planned regarding the number of books, what changed what the amount of words it took to tell the story he had planned, not the story itself. Cadsuane was there from the beginning.

[Vambram]

Whatever RJ planned regarding the number of books, what changed what the amount of words it took to tell the story he had planned, not the story itself. Cadsuane was there from the beginning.

 

Agreed. :)

[Kadere]

 

 

Also, Remember the scene with Moraine and Mat....at least when she discovered he had a Terangrel like Cadsuanue...she would have commented....even if to herself.....so RJ didn't invent Cadsunue at that point.

 

 

 

Why would she have known Cadsuane had a Ter'angreal like Mat's? Cadsuane's been away from the Tower longer then Moraine's been a member. The one time they did meet in New Spring it's not like Moraine was testing all of Cadsuane's ter'angeral.

 

RJ did want the series to be about 5 or 6 books, but it took longer to write then he thought. That doesn't mean he invented new incredibly important characters to waste time, or invent random pointless subplots. It means that even knowing how his story was going to work and what characters he needed, it takes a while to write those characters into positions where they can learn the lessons or do the actions, or meet the new characters realistically.

 

It's necassary for Cadsuane to show up both after Moiraine disappears and after Rand decides to completely harden himself never to trust another Aes Sedai, which means introducing her in ACoS. Unless you want that character's entrance to be boring, not mysterious at all, and feel totally cliched, the character must be introduced right when it's urgent that they're needed. This doesn't mean RJ came up with Cadsaune when he got to ACoS, it means he had no reason to introduce her before then.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

Also, Remember the scene with Moraine and Mat....at least when she discovered he had a Terangrel like Cadsuanue...she would have commented....even if to herself.....so RJ didn't invent Cadsunue at that point.

 

 

It seems that most AS don't know what Cadsuane's ter'angreal do. Even Setelle Anan (spelling?) a noted ter'angreal expert, said upon seeing Mat's medallion in action that she'd heard a rumor that Cadsuane had one like it.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

Considering that RJ had the entire series outined and mapped out, Winternight to Tarmon Gaidon, before he started writing it, and that Cadsuane has become such an integral part of the plot, thanks to Min's viewing, I find it dificult to believe that he wrote the first 6 books and then just decided to throw a major character into the mix.

 

As for her dominance, by custom, sisters defer to strength in the Power.  For her entire career, something like 270 year, she has been the most powerful Aes Sedai in any setting.  Barring the Amrylin Seat, whom she rarely encounters as a wanderer away from TV, she is, by custom, ALWAYS in charge of any gathering with more than 1 As present. 

 

As for her success, she has a bag od tricks that make locating and capturing a man who can channel practically a walk in the park

 

She has a ter angreal that tells her ifda man who can channel is present

She has a ter angreal that points to a channeler

She has a ter angreal that disrupts weaves if they attack her

She has an angreal ensuring that she will be stronger than any, possibly every, male channeler she encounters.

 

Her strength in the power give her dominance over any female channeler and her bag of tricks gives her dimonance over any male channeler.  All of these things will, of course, change once the wondergirls take the oaths and she recognizes them as full sisters but being in charge is a hard habit to break.

 

 

Her age and experience is also a factor. They all know that she's older than any other Aes Sedai, and while age isn't the end all and be all like with the kin it does matter. Plus she's done so many remarkable things, kidnapping the King of Tarabon, stopping a war between Arad Doman and Saldea, capturing more men than any ten red sisters. It's only natural that the other Aes Sedai fall into line.

[benr]

Moiraine looked at Rand steadily, and ignored the last.  "I must tell you of one more Aes Sedai, Rand.  I last saw Cadsuane Melaidhrin before the Aiel War.  There are rumors of her death, but I will not believe them.  Cadsuane Sedai is Green, and formidable.  She has dealt with several men that could channel, by herself.  I do not know how; it could be through simple force of will.  I know she is not dead because she would not miss the Dragon Reborn - she is too stubborn.  She will seek you out; I believe that she will have your best interests at heart,and that her advice will be true, but you must use the same caution as with any Aes Sedai." 

 

Perhaps too much, but Moiraine does know of her; she does know that she was alive only 20 years earlier, she knows that she is drawn to male channelers, and she must know that Cadsuane will seek out Rand.  It is a dereliction of her life's purpose to have left Rand unprepared for Cadsuane.  That is why I think Cadsuane was a late addition.  However, RJ's intro was seemless, his background fits, and NS confirms her pre-existence.  This is excellent plot development.  Of course, again, I could be wrong.  Many of the folks that I respect the most on the site are arrayed against my opinion, and have many good arguments against it.  If RJ had every eventuality mapped from start to finish at the outset, then I am obviously wrong.  I think as he wrote, his world expanded, and needed more.  I remain unconvinced. Not something that will be revealed in AMOL!