Poor Character

[trakand_01]

So i wrote the post about Mat, and his character and personality and how much i actually like him.

 

My current book (CoS) spends much of it's time in Ebou Dar with Mat, Elayne, Nynaeve etc, and i cant help but compare the excellence of Mat's character with the relatively poor character of Nynaeve.

 

I dont dislike Nyn, don't get me wrong, she's a main character and i'll always have a softspot for her, but there is something ... grinding ... about her. She grates on my nerves. Granted we dont know as much about her but she seems incredibly immature for her age - do you think she's just a victim of the whole 'women think women are so much better than men' theme that RJ has laced the books with? Or is it just my perception of her?

 

Key points that annoy me are the way she refuses to see Mat as anything other than a troublemaking woolhead who wouldnt know responsibility if it hit him in the face, the POVs which always contain her going on and on about how she CAN control her temper, how she'll box this person's ears, wait til she finds that person, blah blah...

 

Go ahead and talk me 'round, please - Mat's the only thing keeping me on this chapter (they've just had their first meeting with the Kin and have been clubbed over the head outside a dress-maker's shop whilst discussing how old Reene must be to look around 50).

[krelianzg]

I've never been a big Nynaeve fan, but her character does flesh out a bit later in the series. You'll get the first inklings of it by the end of ACoS, but, IMO, she doesn't really fully develop until Winter's Heart.

 

As for Mat, Mat's just awesome. Easily my favorite character, at least on the side of the Light. Stay tuned, Ebou Dar is just the beginning for him.

[trakand_01]

Thanks for the advice  :)

 

I have actually read right through to book 10 but i've only read 8/9 twice and 10 once, and that a fair few years ago, so my memories are a little hazy past book 9.

 

 

[krelianzg]

Yeah, I'm only on my second read through, about to start Winter's Heart. It's amazing how much you can forget in just a few years.

[trakand_01]

It is!! The reason i've habitually re-read them is that every time a new one is published, I start reading and think "I know the name but... no, cant remember what they did" so go back to book 1, and read right through, then  have to do the same when the next one's out!! As a result I read 1-7 the first time i picked them up, then 1-8, 1-9, 1-10 and now i've started again HOPING to get to the end of 11 around the time AMoL is out, but that looks unlikely now.

 

I find that each time i re-read, i enjoy them more, which is the basis of my response to 'Wasteoftime's hugely aggressive post about the A/E/R/M situation.

 

I find this time i'm paying more attention to small detail, which is great.

 

Sarah

[Elgee]

i can't remember how many times i've read all the books ! LOL

 

Anyway, Nyn grates on my nerves so much i just want Cadsuane to give her the beating of her life  grrrrrrrrrr

 

here's a pic i found that looks just like i imagine Mat:

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Nynaeve improves immensely when she gets married.  Just goes to show ... well, I can't really say what it shows in this thread full of women, but it shows it!  ;D

[Elgee]

Improves ? You think sending her husband and Rand up on a rooftop with the Power in her Well after she had SEEN the Ter'Angreal in the Dome, then later holding on and thereby almost draining what was left in the Well, is an IMPROVEMENT ? If that pure blind idiot got a thought into her head it would die of loneliness ! Not to mention "teaching the Kin they have backbone", only to whine later because they treat her like the self-rightious, childish, half-trained ninny that she is.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

Improves ? You think sending her husband and Rand up on a rooftop with the Power in her Well after she had SEEN the Ter'Angreal in the Dome, then later holding on and thereby almost draining what was left in the Well, is an IMPROVEMENT ? If that pure blind idiot got a thought into her head it would die of loneliness ! Not to mention "teaching the Kin they have backbone", only to whine later because they treat her like the self-rightious, childish, half-trained ninny that she is.

 

That makes PERFECT sense because of course, it's not like Rand or Lan have brains or can think for themselves, so let's just dump the entire blame on Nynaeve  >:(, who by the way is one of the few characters who STILL cares about all the Emond's Fielders, does not manipulate everybody within arm's reach, and is still a sincere person

 

 

 

Nynaeve is annoying sometimes. Yes. But her faults are so trivial compared to the good she does that it just amazes me when people are so willing to overlook that and get straight to the Nynaeve-bashing rants. Want to complain about people? Fine. How about Egwene, who turned so cold and manipulative that she even admits she can no longer relate to her old self? How about Elayne, demanding the throne, getting thousands of Andorans killed because she can't have Dyelin as queen, and being a complete idiot throughout her pregnancy? How about Perrin, who once was a decent guy until Faile messed him up?

 

Why do you think Nynaeve was the only person Rand would link with to cleanse saidin? She is one of the few trustworthy people left. Also, about Ebou Dar, remember that Nynaeve was the only one who wanted to go back to get Mat during the Seanchan invasion.

[Elgee]

You make a good point.  I certainly don't dispute the fact that she has a good heart. Maybe it's the fact that she has a good brain, but seldom uses it, and almost never listens to anyone else, that frustrates me so.  A few years as a novice would have done her the world of good.  Though it's not her fault that she did not get the education she needed.

 

I've just spotted a mistake in my own previous argument: Nyn was never in the Dome  ::) Still, Cadsuane did tell her all about it.

 

I don't much like Perin or Elayne, but they at least have the excuse of being a good 5 or 6 years younger.

 

I disagree with what you say about Egwene - she does make mistakes, but she has turned into a strong person who is making the best of a very bad situation, making full use of whatever intelligence/aid she can, ie in the form of Suan and Leanne (sp).

 

As to Nyn wanting to rush back to Ebou Dar to save Mat: bravo ... wooopee ... very sweet and all.  What does she think she will achieve ?

[Tyrell]

How about Elayne, demanding the throne, getting thousands of Andorans killed because she can't have Dyelin as queen

 

If you remember, Dylin didn't want to be queen, she wanted Elayne to be queen. I don't see why everyone digs into Elayne so badly, she is pretty impetuous to say the least, and she has done some things that annoy me, but fighting for a throne that is hers? Arymilla is responsible for the deaths of those Andorans, not Elayne.

[DemandredFO]

Don't forget we are in Nyneave's head, no one else is.  They can only judge her on the basis of her actions, which are mostly to the good.  Nyneave is somewhat annoying but she has had years of fighting for her position because she looks younger than she is.  It doesn't help either that women have a God-complex going.  Before all the women kill me I'll say it didn't help in the real world that men were given a God-complex.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Maybe it's the fact that she has a good brain, but seldom uses it, and almost never listens to anyone else, that frustrates me so.

 

Perhaps I should have said she "begins to improve".  To avoid spoiling it for trakand_01, I'm not going to get specific here, but in Knife of Dreams she definitely uses her brain with her husband.  I almost stood up and cheered.

 

Elgee ... you should know exactly what I'm talking about, and I think that kind of brains combined with compassion and willingness to self-sacrifice in a useful way is the best indicator of Nynaeve's future we've seen.

 

Besides ... I give her a bye for what happened in Far Madding.  Everyone was acting like an idiot there, except for Cadsuane and Verin.

[Feral]

I love Nyn but I'd just like to point out that, just because she may be annoying, that doesn't make her any less realistic than Mat or a "poor character". There's plenty of annoying people in real life lol.

[Mistress alDebaw]

I like Nynaeve a lot. She was great in Fires of Heaven, so brave. She bested Moghedien again and saved Rand, who seems to need a lot of saving.  ::)

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

How about Elayne, demanding the throne, getting thousands of Andorans killed because she can't have Dyelin as queen

 

If you remember, Dylin didn't want to be queen, she wanted Elayne to be queen. I don't see why everyone digs into Elayne so badly, she is pretty impetuous to say the least, and she has done some things that annoy me, but fighting for a throne that is hers? Arymilla is responsible for the deaths of those Andorans, not Elayne.

 

Maybe it's a bit off topic, but yes, I do remember that Dyelin didn't want to be queen. Do you remember that she was going to take the throne anyway when Elayne didn't show up at first? She would easily have had her 10 houses without all the bloodshed. Ask yourself, would Elayne really make a better queen than Dyelin? If Trakand had chosen to support Dyelin, Elayne could always be advisor. Plus, ruling a country isn't about "fighting for a throne." The kingdom is not a plaything to be owned. I don't necessarily hold Elayne responsible for those deaths, but I do think they would have been prevented if Elayne had let Dyelin become queen.

 

You make a good point.  I certainly don't dispute the fact that she has a good heart. Maybe it's the fact that she has a good brain, but seldom uses it, and almost never listens to anyone else, that frustrates me so.  A few years as a novice would have done her the world of good.  Though it's not her fault that she did not get the education she needed.

 

I've been frustrated with Ny too, plenty of times. But when it comes down to character, far from having a 'poor character', she has one of the best.

[Elgee]

RaW, i'm not going to quote your whole post here - suffice it to say I agree with each point you made  :) There is hope, yet.

[professorskar]

I know a lot of people dislike Nynaeve, but I've always really liked her character.  I actually find her annoying habits amusing.  I agree with whoever said Egwene is much more annoying than Nynaeve.  I've never liked her.  In fact, the only times I've really "rooted" for her were when she was captured by the Seanchan, and now captured by the White Tower.  She just strikes me as really freakin' selfish, especially in the earlier books.

[Paviel]

Why do you think Nynaeve was the only person Rand would link with to cleanse saidin? She is one of the few trustworthy people left.

 

You do raise a good point, that the only female channelers Rand really trusted were Nynaeve, Elayne, and Aviendha... but I think the reason why Rand chose Nynaeve had more to do with Nynaeve's strength in the One Power...

[J.AddamNessosin]

While I wasn't exceptionally fond of her at the beginning, Nynaeve has definitely grown on me.  On the contrary, Egwene got steadily more annoying as the series progressed but her most recent coolness in the tower has been redeeming IMO.

The one character I never could stand was Faile.  I don't know why but for some reason she always annoyed me...

[oosquaiaddict]

Id like to respond to Nynaeves attitude to Mat which I think is what annoyed Trakand01 in the first place.

 

Mat turns into a super cool character in TDR. In the first 2 books he was kind of an idiot(also I dont think we had any Mat POV's , and its those POV's that really make him a likable character). So up until they seperated in Shienar, Nynaeves perfectly justified in thinking of Mat as a troublemaker.

 

Next they meet in Tear after Mats transformation into the coolest character in any novel Ive ever read. Mat avoids everyone in Tear though, spending his time gambling with the lordlings. So interaction between Mat and Nynaeve is minimal. Nynaeve than goes on her adventures in Tanchico, and Salidar, while Mat heads out to the Waste, Cairhien, Caemlyn etc. The next time Mat meets Nynaeve at Salidar hes very arrogant, and she winds up kicking him. From that point she avoids him like the plague, until he moves in to the palace in Ebou Dar.

 

I dont think its unreasonable for Nynaeves opinion of Mat to be the same as it was earlier. Mats not Rand, so there arent intense discussions between Egwene and Nynaeve in TAR about what hes doing and how hes become this leader of men.  When they seperate at the end of CoS we can see Nynaeve(and Elayne for that matter) have their opinions change. Theres a point at the end of CoS where Mat and Brigitte reenact some 2000 year old ritual, and RJ uses my favourite RJism, about how Elayne and Nynaeve look at Mat as if they had never seen him before.

 

I like Nynaeve a lot, probably my favourite female character other than Aviendha, so I guess I am biased.

 

[dyring]

Well, what I dislike about Nynaeve are the same thing I dislike in quite some ppl one meats irl.

 

To answere the post just above this one, that kick by Nynaeveit quite a nice example.

She often complains about "men thinking with the hair on theyr chests" as is, hitting thigs that don´t happend as they want, but well, with Mat in Salidar, Channeling don´t work, so she goes for pure violence. Mat is arrogant, but Nynaeve is a 5 year old "Waah, he don´t do what I want" and kicks him. Then, afterwards(she does just about never thinks first) she comes to think about oops, channeling won´t help.

So, like any generic cowardly person used to be able to bully ppl with some form of brute strength (channeling or others unwilingness to act can be as good and better than muscle), and Runs for mummy to help (in this case, Egwene.

 

Add to that, the fact that before theese thigns, the last time we saw them together that I recall was when Mat saved Nynaeve. One would think this would give her a short pause to consider aswell.

 

Nynaeve is a classic example of having a set of rules that everyone else gotto follow or else. But she don´t herself. add to that an aparent inability to consider the effects of her actions...

 

I have seen some improvement latly, but not enough yet.

 

I still think she´s a good charakter in one way thou. She adds to the book. Even if I don´t like her much.

 

//dyring

[Ahaz Flagg]

    While I dislike Nynaeve, I would never consider her a poor character, the fact that I dislike her so much is proof enough that she is a great character.  Faile is by far the most annoying person in the book, but even she is a great character.

 

  I have read and reread the stories, Nynaeve does seem to do alot of growing up, but she still has  a long way to go, someone said it was her getting married that calmed her down some, I would disagree!! It is the fact that she learned to control Saidar that did that for her, to at least a point. Cadsuane is also a great help to Nynaeve.

 

But a poor character?  Think, if she was so poor of a charcter, why would so many people hate her?

 

[trakand_01]

Then perhaps the title 'Poor Character' was the wrong one to choose. 'Worst Character' is my opinion of Nynaeve in general. I just find her annoying, and repetetive. At least Faile's lack of predictability itself makes her interesting.

 

Thanks for the viewpoints guys, at least we all feel one way or the other about her  ;D