Aes Sedai combat

[Lune]

On a hindsight, one thing I've found rather unusual is why Aes Sedai learn to fight other Aes Sedai. What I mean is slicing weaves. I can understand learning to make lightning and shields from air to protect and defend from normal assailants, but why learn to slice weaves?

 

For an absolute society that claimed authority over channelling women, sitting in the top tier of the power hierarchy and lives in denial of the Black Ajah (and hence enemy wielders of Saidar), it seems strange that AS would know how to slice weaves. The very notion of learning such a thing seems to imply the acknowledgement of the presence dark friend channellers.

[haack909]

Also would be useful against any wilders/male channlers that decieded to cause trouble.

[CUBAREY]

Just because they are not darkfriends does not mean you might not want/need to battle other A.S.  Reds and blues did not think each other necessarily darkfriends but their opposing views often brought them to open conflict,

[Jarred Darque]

slicing a weave doesnt necasarily need to be used in battle either, neither does shielding, if you are triyn to impose your will, or prevent someone from impoising theirs, or any number of circumstances, it would be useful plus...they do know that the last battle will be here one day, they may as well train to prepare for it

[CUBAREY]

In order to gentle male channelers they had to know how to cut a weaves and keep channelers from the power.

[Lune]

Male channellers aren't in the question I believe. Because AS are female they cannot see Saidin and haven't been able to until recent invention of a new weave.

[bcxanth]

But as we know from Lanfear, it's still possible to slice weaves that you cannot see.

 

Also, the AS know that when the Last Battle comes they will have to fight the new Dreadlords as they did in the Trollock Wars.  As they have no idea when the Last Battle will be, it seems only natural that they would teach all new members how to do battle with those type of opponents.

[Lune]

Lanfear is from a whole different generation of Aes Sedai. My question is posed to modern day AS, who cannot slice Saidin. My reason for saying this is that if they knew how to slice weaves that they could not see, then the threat of male channellers wouldn't be as large as they view it. To them, Saidin is a vile, unsee-able but very tangible threat. They would not have had the same kind casualty rate when attempting to capture false dragons either.

 

Again, back to my original statement, the acknowledgement of Dreadlords today would mean acknowledging an organized society of channelling dark friends, something that the White Tower has been vehemently denying for years. Why would they teach their initiates to combat something that they insist isn't there?

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Again, back to my original statement, the acknowledgement of Dreadlords today would mean acknowledging an organized society of channelling dark friends, something that the White Tower has been vehemently denying for years. Why would they teach their initiates to combat something that they insist isn't there?

 

just because you want to believe something doesn't mean its true.

 

hope for the best, perpare for the worst

[Jonn]

There was a string of events back in the founding of the white tower when there were many factions trying to seize control. It wasn't uncommon for women to openly attack one another with the power.

Add to the fact that women who survived the Breaking had to learn to survive in a hostile world, I wouldn't put it past them to get into scraps with other female Aes Sedai.

 

They would not have relinquished the knowledge of how to fight another channeler, just because in later times Aes Sedai joined in a more stable organization.

 

Besides that there were always rogue factions of female channelers an wilders to deal with and subdue.

 

For training purposes as well, if a teacher is watching a student and they lose control of their weaving of the power, they need to have the ability to cut the weave off if things get out of hand.

 

It's all very practical.

[lou]

you might take it from alanna in TDR,she told egwene when egwene asked what it meant to be green ajah,alanna explained that the greens were counter to the dreadlords during the trolloc wars. she said to be green ajah was to "stand ready".

war with the power was not gone from memory.

[Luckers]

Lanfear is from a whole different generation of Aes Sedai. My question is posed to modern day AS, who cannot slice Saidin. My reason for saying this is that if they knew how to slice weaves that they could not see, then the threat of male channellers wouldn't be as large as they view it. To them, Saidin is a vile, unsee-able but very tangible threat. They would not have had the same kind casualty rate when attempting to capture false dragons either.

 

Again, back to my original statement, the acknowledgement of Dreadlords today would mean acknowledging an organized society of channelling dark friends, something that the White Tower has been vehemently denying for years. Why would they teach their initiates to combat something that they insist isn't there?

 

Firstly Lune, you are incorrect. The Aes Sedai directly and specifically state their relisation of, and intention to oppose organised channelers who fight on behalf of the shadow. Some of them deny that any of those channelers would be Aes Sedai--a function of personal stupidity, that--yet nevertheless they all acknowledge the reality of dreadlords.

 

Secondly, modern day Aes Sedai can slice saidin. They know the method of slicing a weave, and they know men weave. Your argument against such is invalid. Aes Sedai reguard men who channel as vile, the sense of fear that they associate is a linked combination of the idea that men are tainted by the Shadow, rememberence of the Breaking and personal prejudice. It has nothing to do with the realities of fighting a men who can channel, as indeed most Aes Sedai display--a somewhat invalid perception, concidering the true reality of male v. female strength structure, yet nevertheless its there.

 

Other than that i think others have stated more than adequately the other benefits of such knowledge.

 

[Davian93]

My reason for saying this is that if they knew how to slice weaves that they could not see, then the threat of male channellers wouldn't be as large as they view it. To them, Saidin is a vile, unsee-able but very tangible threat. They would not have had the same kind casualty rate when attempting to capture false dragons either.

 

What is your basis for saying they cannot slice saidin or do not know how to do it?  They have casualties against False Dragons because false dragons tend to be powerful channelers like Taim or Logain who can easily defeat 3 women at once and can trade shots with upwards of 6 or 7 without being captured.  This does not mean they can't slice saidin.  Saidin is vile to them because until very recently it meant that the male channeler would eventually go massively insane and start destroying stuff.  The breaking is a very real memory to them and because of that massive destruction they have a inherent natural fear of male channeling.  That is why it is so vile to them.  Not because of an ability to slice a male weave...which I am sure they can do.  The Red Ajah has lots of practice dealing with Men channeling.

 

EDIT: Yeah, what Luckers said (finishing his post before I could post mine that...where was I?

[vbama]

I was under the impression that it was for dueling. I don't remeber the book, but believe it was when Rand was in the box, some AS were trying to work out who stood highest in the group, and one of them was thinking it was impossible to tell without a duel, which was rarely done. Or, maybe it was after Siuan was Healed and explained to Nyn about how AS knew who to forfeit to. Someone said that duels RARELY happen, or not anymore. Wow, wish I had the books to have an exact quote.

[Lord_Naryb]

I don't have my book handy either, but I think it was more of a no Aes Sedai would stoop to duelling each other because that would be highly un-Aes Sedai like. So I don't think any AS duel each other (at least anymore).

[The Lost One]

Wasn't it mentioned that a lot of the Novices and/or Accepted duel each other in secret...they are not supposed to do anything like that.  Maybe that is where a lot of them learn it. 

[trakand_01]

I would also think it would be quite an easy thing to learn, almost instinctive, self defence. Imagine someone had ropes around you, what would you do? Cut them. For AS it's instinctive to use the power and I would imagine that Air would be the most suitable of the 5 powers to use, the sharpest, easiest to hone in that environment.

[BKVMC]

the way  different channelers  cut weaves  was always interesting to me  in rands case  you see him  using  mostly  spirit to  cut weaves in  Nynaeves case  she uses fire. i  would think the  element (for lack of a better word)  you  would use to cut weaves would be the one  that  you have the  most control over. 

 

I assumed  someone  who is so healing based  like  Nynaeve  would have used spirit or air  but then again she uses all five elements in her healing so maybe she is one of the rare people strong in all 5  aspects of the power.

 

As to the Red ajah  i  assumed they  had an  ajah  "trick"  like  moirane  talked about when she was raised  to the Blue. and  being the Red  i  thought their trick would somehow  be  connected to  male channelers.

[Majsju]

When it comes to high casualties against false Dragons, these fellows used to have quite a bunch of heavily armed followers. An Aes Sedai is just as vulnerable to an arrow in the back as the rest of us.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

The Aes Sedai directly and specifically state their relisation of, and intention to oppose organised channelers who fight on behalf of the shadow. Some of them deny that any of those channelers would be Aes Sedai--a function of personal stupidity, that--yet nevertheless they all acknowledge the reality of dreadlords.

 

The first sentence is a bit imprecise, Aes Sedai realize that they will fight Dreadlords at TG but until recently (last three years) most did not believe that TG was fast approaching. Its one thing to know that their will be dreadlords at TG, another to admit that closeness of this event means that there is presently an organization Darkfriend channelers.

 

Second, to deny that some of these channelers are likely to be Aes Sadai is not stupid.  Look at the paranoia that Nyneave, Egwene and Elayne had when they were first made Siuan's hounds. And the similar paranoia of the sister's looking for Black sisters on what they believed to be Elaida's directions.  Moreover, all A.S. reasonably do not want to admit that there is a black ajah, non-channelers already mistrust Aes Sadai think how many more adherents to the whitecloak philosophy there would be if it was generally acknowledged that there were darkfriends in the White Tower.

 

[Tyrell]

Well, the White Tower doesn't really *deserve* to be trusted for starters heh. Second, there're darkfriends everywhere else, why not in the White Tower, lotsa people think Aes Sedai are all darkfriends anyway - look at the reactions Moiraine got in the Two Rivers in EotW.

[druidravi]

I think with all the shady tower politics like Elaida led group deposing Siuan .

 

They also require it while dealing with willful novices and accepted. I think there was a small confrontation between Nynvae and Siuan in book 2 something where she tests Nynvae's power .

 

If the Aes Sedai can't cut weaves and shield someone they would cut a pretty sorry picture when strong novices / accepted lose their control . 

[Mr Ares]

To deny that some of these channelers are likely to be Aes Sadai is not stupid.  Look at the paranoia that Nyneave, Egwene and Elayne had when they were first made Siuan's hounds. And the similar paranoia of the sister's looking for Black sisters on what they believed to be Elaida's directions.  Moreover, all A.S. reasonably do not want to admit that there is a black ajah, non-channelers already mistrust Aes Sadai think how many more adherents to the whitecloak philosophy there would be if it was generally acknowledged that there were darkfriends in the White Tower.

But it is stupid. I can see good reason not to let outsiders know or believe that your organisation is riddled with Darkfriends. However, the Aes Sedai do more than that. They bury their heads in the sand and don't acknowledge even to themselves that there are DFs among them. In that climate, with no-one willing to admit they exist, and no-one willing to try to track them down the Black Ajah has flourished - they go about their business without having to worry about other Sisters believing them to be Black. Now, if the Black was something acknowledged to exist among Sisters, and they removed the BA themselves, then they could honeslty, rather than self-deludingly, claim to be free of DFs. The recent BA hunt is something they should have done a long time ago, and done regularly.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

They bury their heads in the sand and don't acknowledge even to themselves that there are DFs among them.

 

Well unless they had an internal police force akin to the Questioners or the Seekers they could not have carried out the type of regular checking of sisters (with the oath rod) that it would take to assure that all sissters walked in the light. Moreover, the Amyrlin and the Hall together were never cohesive enough to create such an internal police force. Moreover, the seperate Ajahs would never had stood for such an intrusion. So yes the Aes Sadae were dillusional but they had no easy (or I would maintain  realistic) ability to root out the Black sisters.

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

They bury their heads in the sand and don't acknowledge even to themselves that there are DFs among them.

Well unless they had an internal police force akin to the Questioners or the Seekers they could not have carried out the type of regular checking of sisters (with the oath rod) that it would take to assure that all sissters walked in the light. Moreover, the Amyrlin and the Hall together were never cohesive enough to create such an internal police force. Moreover, the seperate Ajahs would never had stood for such an intrusion. So yes the Aes Sadae were dillusional but they had no easy (or I would maintain  realistic) ability to root out the Black sisters.

But the existence of the BA hunters is proof that such a force could have come into being - the Amyrlin need only create such a force quietly, using some Sisters who could be trusted. If they were able to make some gains in finding DFs, then it would look very suspicious if the Hall tried to block them. The same could have been done within the Ajah - if one Ajah head tried it and started finding DFs, then a purge of that Ajah would happen, and it would be quite suspicious if other Ajah tried to deny that they had any BA amongst them - confidence would certainly be shaken for a lot of people. Your point about the Hall and Amyrlin lacking the cohesiveness to begin such a police force doesn't hold water. For one thing,there is a lot we don't know about the history of the Tower, so to say that they have never had the cohesiveness is impossible to prove. Furthermore, it is at a time when they are at each others throats that this measure sneaks in. The mere beginning of such a measure, if it can meet with some success, can help to ensure that it continues - prove that the Black exists, and it is easier to permit a search for them to continue. In fact, it is very easy for such a measure to start, although if you gave it to the wrong person it could end as soon as it began. Finally, the mere fact the starting such an internal police force may be difficult does in no way make it more sensible to ignore the potential problem of Darkfriends in your midst, and taking the easy option is not always the smart way of doing things. The real problem is that for far too long, too many of them have been blinded by their own arrogance and willingness to buy into their own mystique, a problem which was not insurmountable. Sisters like Cadsuane and Moiraine show a willingness to depart from the norms of Aes Sedai behaviour, and such sisters have presumably always been present to a greater or lesser extent, and all that would be neccessary would be to get the right person to make a start.