S3E4 - The Road to the Spear

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

For me the most glaring omission from the column visions was in the vision where the Aiel are being sent on their mission.  In the books the Aes Sedai sending them explicitly refuse the request for some of the Aiel to remain and refer to the actions of the Aiel in trying to delay or divert one of the hundred companions from destroying a city - referring to thousands of Aiel linking arms and singing to him while he destroyed them.  Why bother to set this up in series one with the tinkers linking arms to block the whitecloaks and not have the payoff in the visions?  Establishing that even in the age of legends Aiel pacifism was not a passive thing but involved active resistance to evil was important.  

[KakitaOCU]

  On 3/22/2025 at 5:29 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

In the books the Aes Sedai sending them explicitly refuse the request for some of the Aiel to remain and refer to the actions of the Aiel in trying to delay or divert one of the hundred companions from destroying a city - referring to thousands of Aiel linking arms and singing to him while he destroyed them.

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You have to break the narration to do that though.  In the books it wasn't a scene we saw happen, it was something the Aes Sedai told Rand's Ancestor about second hand.

So to put the scene in we either need to cut away to a different scene when we're already in a different scene and then figure out why Rand's ancestor saw it when they weren't there.

Or you have to make an entirely different scene where one of Rand's Ancestors who is already established to have children to be there personally.

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/22/2025 at 5:29 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Why bother to set this up in series one with the tinkers linking arms to block the whitecloaks and not have the payoff in the visions? 

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Because the point of  depicting that action wasn't setup for anything; it was to illustrate the resolve of the Tuathuan and their commitment to peaceful resistance.

[Mailman]

  On 3/22/2025 at 5:48 AM, KakitaOCU said:

You have to break the narration to do that though.  In the books it wasn't a scene we saw happen, it was something the Aes Sedai told Rand's Ancestor about second hand.

So to put the scene in we either need to cut away to a different scene when we're already in a different scene and then figure out why Rand's ancestor saw it when they weren't there.

Or you have to make an entirely different scene where one of Rand's Ancestors who is already established to have children to be there personally.

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  On 3/22/2025 at 5:53 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

Because the point of  depicting that action wasn't setup for anything; it was to illustrate the resolve of the Tuathuan and their commitment to peaceful resistance.

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It does have a little of the unused chekovs gun feel about it.

 

It would have been very simple to have had Latra tell Rands ancestor the time to move out was because (insert name of city) had fallen and the Aiel there had song to him for hours as he (insert channeler name) had killed them one by.

 

That said it was not vital it be included. Just maybe a small improvement or addition.

[Mailman]

  On 3/22/2025 at 3:32 AM, KakitaOCU said:

 

Will request you don't do this particular rabbit hole with me.  Not saying don't talk it or anything, but I won't engage or will end up engaging too much on that topic.  Leaving souls hard gendered would have made the show a non-starter for me.  I had a lot of trouble dealing with it the first time around and found Aran'gar a saving grace because it meant he had thought about it some an knew it was maybe a line that had potential hiccups.  (That said, met him twice, only once when I was relatively passing and he was never anything but polite and friendly.).

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I don't think you need to treat souls as being hard gendered as a negative thing in randland.

Souls in randland are eternal. If you at that meta level of a soul are whichever gender you are it could be a good thing. 

 

In the real world a meta form like this is not applicable. And it is clear that some people feel they are not gender compatible with their birth gender and they should be fully able to transition to whatever gender they feel most at comfort with.

 

Given the WoT never really digs into this issue it could be argued that the eternal souls are actually in their ideal and preferred gender identity for all time.

 

I want to be very clear this is not a right wing argument that you are the gender of your birth but that because of the nature of the WoT universe everyone is always at peace with their eternal souls gender.

 

I know you said that you did not want to get into this deeply I just thought this idea might be of some interest to you and unless you want to explore it further I will not revisit it with you.

Edited yesterday at 08:25 AM by Mailman

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/22/2025 at 6:34 AM, Mailman said:

It does have a little of the unused chekovs gun feel about it.

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Not really.

 

As I noted, the scene of the Tuathauan linking arms and resisting Valda and his Questioners serves the narrative function of demonstrating their resolve and their commitment to the Way of the Leaf, which is important in and of itself; it does not need to have any significance beyond that simple function. Adding a retroactive 'callback' to it would have just unnecessarily made an already complicated story even more complicated.

[Mailman]

  On 3/22/2025 at 7:08 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

Not really.

 

As I noted, the scene of the Tuathauan linking arms and resisting Valda and his Questioners serves the narrative function of demonstrating their resolve and their commitment to the Way of the Leaf, which is important in and of itself; it does not need to have any significance beyond that simple function. Adding a retroactive 'callback' to it would have just unnecessarily made an already complicated story even more complicated.

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Like I said a little bit. It's not a massive thing but for a show that likes its easter eggs it feels like something that could have got a callback.

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/22/2025 at 7:18 AM, Mailman said:

Like I said a little bit. It's not a massive thing but for a show that likes its easter eggs it feels like something that could have got a callback.

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The Tuathuan thing wasn't an Easter Egg.

[Mailman]

  On 3/22/2025 at 7:24 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

The Tuathuan thing wasn't an Easter Egg.

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no i meant that the linking arms things could have been the easter egg to the aiel vision 

[Yamezt]

  On 3/22/2025 at 6:58 AM, Mailman said:

In the real world a meta from like this is not applicable

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Only touching on this on the aspect of real life beliefs, since you mention real world and I have no real interest in going into the debate about the change in reincarnation rules in the wot.

 

While I'm now atheist, I grew up in a household with a religion that believes in the cycle of reincarnation. 

 

It actually feels more natural to me (no doubt due to indoctrinated upbringing) that reincarnation has no boundary in terms of sex or even species. I grew up with the understanding that a person can reincarnate as the opposite sex, or even animal or even a cockroach in their next life. 

 

 

[Mailman]

  On 3/22/2025 at 7:48 AM, Yamezt said:

Only touching on this on the aspect of real life beliefs, since you mention real world and I have no real interest in going into the debate about the change in reincarnation rules in the wot.

 

While I'm now atheist, I grew up in a household with a religion that believes in the cycle of reincarnation. 

 

It actually feels more natural to me (no doubt due to indoctrinated upbringing) that reincarnation has no boundary in terms of sex or even species. I grew up with the understanding that a person can reincarnate as the opposite sex, or even animal or even a cockroach in their next life. 

 

 

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My point was more concerning the fact that in our world we clearly don't have perfect gender identity at our birth gender. Religious beliefs are too varied to take them all into account.

[Agitel]

  On 3/22/2025 at 5:53 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

Because the point of  depicting that action wasn't setup for anything; it was to illustrate the resolve of the Tuathuan and their commitment to peaceful resistance.

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It does tie into something later in the same book. 

[Gary Again]

One thing that really struck me after episode 4 is how much the audio added to the ring and bore scenes I think in both cases the visuals were amazing but the audio also added a lot. I think the casting and costume departments rightly get a lot of credit but I think the audio crew have also been amazing throughout the series. Some of my favorites have been in season 1 where Rand touches the seal and the music softly disappears, weep for menetheren I thought was amazing, the audio when they enter Shadar Logoth reminded me of the audio in the ring and bore scenes and really added to the otherworldly feel and I was surprised they tried to do the song and I thought they did a good job with it having a good and peaceful feeling to it. 

[Skipp]

  On 3/22/2025 at 5:29 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

For me the most glaring omission from the column visions was in the vision where the Aiel are being sent on their mission.  In the books the Aes Sedai sending them explicitly refuse the request for some of the Aiel to remain and refer to the actions of the Aiel in trying to delay or divert one of the hundred companions from destroying a city - referring to thousands of Aiel linking arms and singing to him while he destroyed them.  Why bother to set this up in series one with the tinkers linking arms to block the whitecloaks and not have the payoff in the visions?  Establishing that even in the age of legends Aiel pacifism was not a passive thing but involved active resistance to evil was important.  

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Apparently the scene was written but cut from the script before filming.  They clearly wanted it but couldn't find a way to work it in to their satisfaction with the time restraints and such, unfortunately.

[Ralph]

I find the vision of Janduin interesting in that it means the glass columns can show things that happened after they were created. In the books they dont iirc

[king of nowhere]

  On 3/22/2025 at 3:44 PM, Skipp said:

 

Apparently the scene was written but cut from the script before filming.  They clearly wanted it but couldn't find a way to work it in to their satisfaction with the time restraints and such, unfortunately.

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This must be stressed out. Time is a huge issue, and a lot of cool stuff has to be sacrificed for it.

If we get 8 season for 14 books + new spring, that's almost 2 books per season. At 800 pages per book, an episode must adapt 200 pages. Rhuidean was what, 50 pages in the books? Something like that? And they had to spend a full episode on it. And they still had to cut half the visions.

[Irvyne]

  16 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

This must be stressed out. Time is a huge issue, and a lot of cool stuff has to be sacrificed for it.

If we get 8 season for 14 books + new spring, that's almost 2 books per season. At 800 pages per book, an episode must adapt 200 pages. Rhuidean was what, 50 pages in the books? Something like that? And they had to spend a full episode on it. And they still had to cut half the visions.

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But let's not forget, there is a WHOLE lot of "not-much" between Books 6 and 11. I would say the majority of those books could be easily glossed over, and the plot would barely be affected at all.

[Sabio]

Rafe said he could see versions of the show that are six or seven seasons and he plans to do Jordan's ending if he can.  Which means they have to make up a new ending if the series was to end at say season 4, since Jordan's ending wouldn't make much sense unless they have the time to build up to it.

[A Memory Of Why]

  16 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

This must be stressed out. Time is a huge issue, and a lot of cool stuff has to be sacrificed for it.

If we get 8 season for 14 books + new spring, that's almost 2 books per season. At 800 pages per book, an episode must adapt 200 pages. Rhuidean was what, 50 pages in the books? Something like that? And they had to spend a full episode on it. And they still had to cut half the visions.

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So what you're saying is we're gunna miss out on dozens of hours of food critiques, fashion shows and skirt straightening?

 

(Sigh) I guess they could do that as spin offs, like a WoT cooking show..?

 

And today's guest is Lanfear, i hear its going to be spicey 😉

[DaddyFinn]

  16 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

This must be stressed out. Time is a huge issue, and a lot of cool stuff has to be sacrificed for it.

If we get 8 season for 14 books + new spring, that's almost 2 books per season. At 800 pages per book, an episode must adapt 200 pages. Rhuidean was what, 50 pages in the books? Something like that? And they had to spend a full episode on it. And they still had to cut half the visions.

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And this is why the "just do the books" is such a pointless argument. It's just not possible within time and budget.

[Mailman]

  7 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

And this is why the "just do the books" is such a pointless argument. It's just not possible within time and budget.

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I don't think anyone has actually said this. What we have asked is to be closer to the books and not invent needless new arcs that sap the limited time available from the major characters.

 

The production also thinks they can achieve the adaption in a timeframe and budget that they agreed to. If it's not enough they should have pitched something different.

[Turin Turambar]

Due to time and budget some arcs have to change in order to ensure that certain high points, like the columns get the time and detail they deserve.  I for one can live with some things being cut, or moved about in order to see some if not all of the things I have waited literally decades to see. Mat stick down the princes for instance.  Not quite the same, but still satisfying  ( I do think they sorta missed a trick by not showing the boys abilities with staff and bow earlier. To be fair, I'm not sure how unless they did a contest at Bel tine).

[Scarloc99]

Couldn't go back over everything but overall was really happy with this episode. I have no issue with Choedan Kal being only 1 item and the pair of the sword of callandor. You don't need to muddy the waters with multiple "magic items" that do similar things. 

In terms of the visions just some minor niggles for me

I wish they had shown Morin's story, the first maiden of the spear. if for no other reason then it does directly link to Rand who is the child of a Maiden. 

The water debt can be explained in a single line of exposition later anyway so we don't need to see that vision. 

The other vision I wish we had seen closer to the book, is the 7th vision, Jonai in Paaran Disen. I know we got a form of that but the disscusion about the shock lance, the shock and horror at picking up a weapon. I think also indicating that possibly the very last of the Aiel in the world left with the wagons may have been good. 

 

[Scarloc99]

  9 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

So what you're saying is we're gunna miss out on dozens of hours of food critiques, fashion shows and skirt straightening?

 

(Sigh) I guess they could do that as spin offs, like a WoT cooking show..?

 

And today's guest is Lanfear, i hear its going to be spicey 😉

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I am also still to see a single arms folded under heaving bosom anywhere in the show 🙂 

[Scarloc99]

  9 hours ago, Sabio said:

Rafe said he could see versions of the show that are six or seven seasons and he plans to do Jordan's ending if he can.  Which means they have to make up a new ending if the series was to end at say season 4, since Jordan's ending wouldn't make much sense unless they have the time to build up to it.

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I mean this parallels nicely with the writing of the books, Jordan didn't know initially how many books he had to finish the series hence a lot of the issues in the first 4 books as he was slowly given more and more time.