WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[Vartija]

I was watching Mat push that Ashandarei into the lock and thinking "surely that flimsy thing is going to fall apart any second." 😆

 

And yeah, Nynaeve, it's much less painful for Elayne if you remove the feathery thing at the end. I was wtf:ing pretty hard at that oversight. 

 

 

[Mailman]

6 minutes ago, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

The more I think about it the more I realize how poorly the show has handled Perrin and the Whitecloaks. In the books Perrin killed some whitecloaks in tEotW in self defense and later Dain sees Perrin in the general vicinity of where his father dies and just assumes he is somehow responsible (because book Dain is a belligerent idiot). In this version Perrin straight up murderers the dude, because even if you kill a man for killing your dog it’s still murder, and a mild mannered and rational Dain is reasonably upset. 
 

Now let’s just look at who Perrin murdered. Had it been a guy like Valda I suppose we could let it slide but remember that one of Geofram’s defining qualities in the books was that he was a decent man despite being a whitecloak, and this is doubly so in the show as he wasn’t even the one who interrogated Perrin and Egwene. In fact last we saw him before this scene he was bravely shoring up his men to defend the people of Falme against an invading force despite overwhelming odds because it was the right thing to do. Next he rescues an ally who is being savaged by a wild animal. Geoffram totally did not deserve what he got, in fact the man should have shown up when Mat blew the damned horn, and its hard to feel good about what Perrin did to him. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’m team Dain on this one.   

Dain got a report from the biased Byar about the battle at Falme that claimed Bornhald senior.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Mailman

[Rhaze]

 Rafe is 100% proof that someone can read the books, love them, be entertained by them, and not understand them at all.

 

13 hours ago, Vartija said:

I was watching Mat push that Ashandarei into the lock and thinking "surely that flimsy thing is going to fall apart any second." 😆

 

And yeah, Nynaeve, it's much less painful for Elayne if you remove the feathery thing at the end. I was wtf:ing pretty hard at that oversight. 

 

 

 It's the small details that make a show great. It is hard to see this show ever being great because they never get the small details. I still liked season 2, but my expectations of this being an all-time great show is at a minimum.

[SinisterDeath]

8 hours ago, Mailman said:

What about Nynaeve pushing the fletching through the wound WTF. Seems she can't heal or have any wisdom skills in this episode.

Yeah, I was a bit annoyed at that. She's a bloody wisdom. I'd think she'd at least know you should break the arrow off...

On the other end. I don't think she's personally dealt with many arrow wounds, and if she's read about them at all... it probably said "push it through".

 

At least she didn't yank it out, arrow head and all...

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Rhaze said:

 Rafe is 100% proof that someone can read the books, love them, be entertained by them, and not understand them at all.

Seems like he understands them just fine to me. All of the characters are exactly where they are supposed to be in their emotional journeys. 

[Mailman]

1 minute ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yeah, I was a bit annoyed at that. She's a bloody wisdom. I'd think she'd at least know you should break the arrow off...

On the other end. I don't think she's personally dealt with many arrow wounds, and if she's read about them at all... it probably said "push it through".

 

At least she didn't yank it out, arrow head and all...

But they have already shown her to be proficient at hunting and tracking which heavily implies a more than passing acquaintance with bows and she should be well aware that introducing foreign material into wounds is dangerous. It is just super sloppy.

[Vartija]

3 minutes ago, Rhaze said:

 It's the small details that make a show great. It is hard to see this show ever being great because they never get the small details. I still liked season 2, but my expectations of this being an all-time great show is at a minimum.

Stuff like that does frustrate the hell out of me. Like the arrow, I just struggle to imagine how no one in the production crew pointed out she should snap it before pushing it through.  

[king of nowhere]

13 minutes ago, Rhaze said:

 Rafe is 100% proof that someone can read the books, love them, be entertained by them, and not understand them at all.

9 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Seems like he understands them just fine to me. All of the characters are exactly where they are supposed to be in their emotional journeys. 

both of you have a point.

i would say that it shows one can understand emotional character arcs very well, but still fail at worldbuilding and plot consistency.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

both of you have a point.

i would say that it shows one can understand emotional character arcs very well, but still fail at worldbuilding and plot consistency.

I agree with this. But just remember - it’s the characters that make the story. Consistent plots and tight world building will avail nothing if the characters aren’t engaging. 

[Vartija]

I don't doubt Rafe's enthusiasm for the books, but I've come to realize we might value different things about them. For example, I can't fathom how overlooked Rand's relationship with the sword has been. A complete no brainer for me to include and build around that has been a mere afterthought in the show. Season 1 also kind of bulldozed past some scenes from the book that I found very emotional or meaninful. The end result is that I can't quite connect with the tv characters and therefore the series feels a bit hollow for me.  

[SinisterDeath]

7 hours ago, Meskell said:

the channeling for the bond to be unmasked…

The wording Lan used was this.

"You released my bond"

 

I don't think she masked it.

I think she literally un-bonded Lan, and what we saw was her re-bonding him.

 

3 hours ago, Sabio said:

I think it would have been better had they kept Ingtar arc, with him trying to get redemption.  I mean why even care about the character, he's now just some noble who sacrificed himself.  Who lasted like 5 seconds.

I really, really feel like we had a TON of cut content.

Whether that's content that was shot and hit the cutting room floor, or content that was written but never filmed because of time constraints due to Amazon's stupid restrictions.

 

 

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

Is this serious incense large enough and controlled enough to cover a charge over that distance, you must be joking.

White Cloaks know their incense. They do be good at covering up the smell of the devils lettuce.

[king of nowhere]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I agree with this. But just remember - it’s the characters that make the story. Consistent plots and tight world building will avail nothing if the characters aren’t engaging. 

yes, but it wouldn't kill to ask for both.

i can forgive minor things, but really, the thing with moiraine. it would have been so easy to have her cut the flows of the damane to free rand, and keep the same plot. this is just a major oversight, and I'm extremely surprised that nobody, from rafe to the other writers to sarah nakamura to the actors themselves who knew about the three oaths, picked up on it and suggested the simple change that would not alter the plot in any other way. It is not a "we don't have the time to explain it fully". it is not a "we had to simplify it". It's not a "we need it to advance the plot". and it's not even "one guy had an oversight and didn't notice".

I am dropping my rating of the whole season from 9 to 8 for that single accident.

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

28 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Dain got a report from the biased Byar about the battle at Falme that claimed Bornhald senior.

Whatever, dude. The point is that book Dain was jumping to conclusions and acting on assumptions while show Dain is an eyewitness to his father’s murder. This makes a huge difference in Dain’s characterization. 

[king of nowhere]

1 minute ago, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

Whatever, dude. The point is that book Dain was jumping to conclusions and acting on assumptions while show Dain is an eyewitness to his father’s murder. This makes a huge difference in Dain’s characterization. 

on the other hand, it was a very emotional moment, and perhaps the whitecloaks now will come across as something more than closeminded morons. maybe the trial on perrin will have some actual weight behind it.

I, for one, am looking forward to perrin pleading guilty and declaring himself ready to face whatever punishment borhnald decides, with bornhald then deciding to give him another chance.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, but it wouldn't kill to ask for both.

i can forgive minor things, but really, the thing with moiraine. it would have been so easy to have her cut the flows of the damane to free rand, and keep the same plot. this is just a major oversight, and I'm extremely surprised that nobody, from rafe to the other writers to sarah nakamura to the actors themselves who knew about the three oaths, picked up on it and suggested the simple change that would not alter the plot in any other way. It is not a "we don't have the time to explain it fully". it is not a "we had to simplify it". It's not a "we need it to advance the plot". and it's not even "one guy had an oversight and didn't notice".

I am dropping my rating of the whole season from 9 to 8 for that single accident.

You just blow past the explanation. When Mo says she would kill 1000 innocent people to protect Rand, she establishes that protecting the Dragon as the internal justification which permits her to “bypass” the oaths: by definition, if they are trying to harm the Dragon, they are all Darkfriends. 

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

You just blow past the explanation. When Mo says she would kill 1000 innocent people to protect Rand, she establishes that protecting the Dragon as the internal justification which permits her to “bypass” the oaths: by definition, if they are trying to harm the Dragon, they are all Darkfriends. 

TV Show Oath doesn't have a clause for dark friends.

3rd oath in tv show.

Quote

Never to use the One Power as a weapon, except in the last extreme defense of her own life, or the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai.

 

[Guire]

31 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Seems like he understands them just fine to me. All of the characters are exactly where they are supposed to be in their emotional journeys. 

Nah.

[Elder_Haman]

12 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

TV Show Oath doesn't have a clause for dark friends.

3rd oath in tv show.

 

I’d forgotten. 

 

12 hours ago, Guire said:

Nah.

Explain. Which character is in a different place and why?

[Guire]

13 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

on the other hand, it was a very emotional moment, and perhaps the whitecloaks now will come across as something more than closeminded morons. maybe the trial on perrin will have some actual weight behind it.

I, for one, am looking forward to perrin pleading guilty and declaring himself ready to face whatever punishment borhnald decides, with bornhald then deciding to give him another chance.

We will never get the trial.  Its pretty obvious Mat and Perrin are getting most of the story cuts. May not even get power wrought hammer.

 

Big question.  Is Horn gone now?

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, Guire said:

Big question.  Is Horn gone now?

I don't know. I tweeted that very question to Rafe... I doubt I'll get an answer. <_< 

[Akmenos the bound]

I LOVED the books and introduced them to my 5 children as they each became 13 (the youngest will he 21 in Dec), 3 of them LOVED them just as much and have read them so often they’ve had to replace their own copies several times over.  I’m not as much as a purist as many people here because from day 1 I knew they were adapting a 14 book series into maybe 6-7 seasons so a lot of characters will not be present and many will take on multiple roles.  I have enjoyed the show for what it is.  They are staying as close to the source as they can.  What I’m curious about is what did Mat say in the old-tongue to the heroes I can’t find the translation but it was awesome

[wotfan4472]

15 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, but it wouldn't kill to ask for both.

 

I have come to realise, that getting both brilliant characters and terrific worldbuilding is close to rare for films.

 

For t.v, it is even rarer, especially in this genre.

 

For what I have seen of this, I am really happy, want more, and am enjoying the journey. I know there is far more to see and explore that this show will do. I am also excited to see what the other Forsaken are going to do. To see Lanfear afraid at the end is pretty much on point when it comes to the Forsaken. The heroes were amazing, and done respectfully; they all felt like from our world, which was awesome to see.

 

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

7 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

on the other hand, it was a very emotional moment, and perhaps the whitecloaks now will come across as something more than closeminded morons. maybe the trial on perrin will have some actual weight behind it.

I, for one, am looking forward to perrin pleading guilty and declaring himself ready to face whatever punishment borhnald decides, with bornhald then deciding to give him another chance.

Very true, that would be quite consistent with what we’ve seen of this version of Dain. What would not be consistent with this version of Dain would be withholding his troops and refusing to defend The Two River so I’m really wondering how Perrin’s return to The Two Rivers is going to play out. Granted we don’t really know this version of Dain all that well yet, his civil conversation with “Two Rivers” and the fact that he has earned the ire of Valda seem to be framing him as a good person. 

[Mailman]

13 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Explain. Which character is in a different place and why?

Well okay just one that jumps out in the last 2 episodes for me is that Rand made a deal with Lanfear that directly caused the deaths of many people (at least a dozen in front of the gate) That would have been devastating for him in the books at this point of his development. And at this point he could not appear to give a single care about those innocents he caused to be killed.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Mailman

[Guire]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Explain. Which character is in a different place and why?

Perrin at start of book 4 was in a solid relationship with Faile.  He was coming to terms with lesving behind his blacksmith past and struggling with violence but willing to use it.  In show he should be in inpatient mental health facility.  He has murdered wife and guy he barely knows.  Killing Geofram as revenge for Hopper should create all kinds of emotional trauma for tons of reasons.  

 

Mat took express lane from Benedict Arnold to Captain America.  who hnows where he is?  They did much better than I thought they would but show still sufgers from lack of time and lack of interest for male characters.  I still enjoy watching.  Its good tv but still a big missed opportunity.