WoT Season 2 Episode 7: Daes Dae'Mar

[Rhaze]

19 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

For a clear example of what I envision when I talk about having Egwene die and then be immediately resuscitated, see the conclusion to the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode Prophecy Girl.

 I think most of us get your point. Most seem to disagree with it though. It wouldnt shock me, I would find it to be stupid and unnecessarily convoluted, but not surprised.

 

 Makes me think of the Jon Snow death.. I died, revived, and now my oath to the wall is no longer valid...

well, that means no Iron Islander will ever have to serve long at the wall... just walk out into the water with a friend, take a deep breath underwater, have friend drag them to shore, pump the water out, and head back to the island isles.

[Finnssss22]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

For a clear example of what I envision when I talk about having Egwene die and then be immediately resuscitated, see the conclusion to the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode Prophecy Girl.

 

Unfortunately predominately only forming opinions based on 4th wall unconfirmed/questionable sources or what the X-ray does or doesn't tell you especially when it flies in the face of book and/or show source material is not going to get one very far.

 

At one time I would've complimented you on your passion to argue for your opinion but I have since come to think that it's less about what your actual opinion is and more just about a passion to argue.

[A Memory Of Why]

So I just had a thought, I guess now we can say..

 

Moraine is far more dangerous 🤫

[MarcusM]

8 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Because I know her reputation and her credibility, both of which are high-level.

 

If the information about the collars only being able to be removed from dead damane didn't come directly from Sharon Gilham and were not objectively true, it would not have appeared in the article.

A costume designer creates costumes. I bet her assignment was to create a necklace that “could not be taken of unless the wearer is dead”

However she chooses to communicate around this should be taken into the context of … costumes.

As far as WOT lore is concerned the principles are written in the books. These are interpreted and may have been adjusted by the show runner to some extent.

Heck even the writers cannot be trusted to follow the lore. And we know they will tweak and adjust as you go to ensure the story roughly follows the original story.

To leave the necklace on Egwene will have such paramount ramifications that I am sure Rafe will ensure that it comes off in one way or another while Eg being alive on the other side of it.

Given the criticism they received from resurrecting-ish Nyn, I would lean towards following the books on this one. That’s Occams Razor.

[MarcusM]

8 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Oh man, what a disaster would that be… if every season you had a different main character bail… 

 

But that isn’t really a 3rd option because my two assertions were: 

1) Egwene gets the collar off next episode 

2) Egwene doesn’t die to get the collar off 

 

I did just now thought furiously and vividly on the options of not killing her yet satisfying the claim “that a damane must die to remove the adam” (which I do not believe to be true btw) and came up with a way to do it without resurrection.

You just have to find a way to invalidate / nullify the working of the adam. Ie make sure that the one power feature of the adam is not working.

We do know how to do this. Enter a stedding with a bolt cutter and just clip it.

[DreadLord31]

Ok, so new bit of info… I know this is a thread on Ep7, but there is a preview of Ep8 out… what do we think, fair game as it pertains to this discussion??? 

[MarcusM]

10 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Ok, so new bit of info… I know this is a thread on Ep7, but there is a preview of Ep8 out… what do we think, fair game as it pertains to this discussion??? 

I think it looks exciting!:-)

 

Spoiler

Nyn in a Sul-dam dress - most likely inside Eg's cell. She looks amazing in that!

Lot's of fighting. Looking forward to the action.

White cloaks. I do hope we get to see some scenes from their perspective before they just suddenly appear.

There is fog - so I guess the horn will sound.

Mat  (probably) holding a wounded Rand in his arms.

"Who are you" - "well boy/Lews/old friend I am Arthur Pendragon... and I am here to save the day. You look like shit by the way. Have an Aes Sedai heal you ASAP else you will bleed to death from that wound of yours"

Will he get a cut from Ba'alzamons stick? I think they will speed things up and just give him one wound from the dagger. There have been far too little of Ba'alzamon and too much of the dagger.

 

 

[notpropaganda73]

Well I must admit I was incredibly disappointed by this episode, not quite S1 finale levels but it just felt so underwhelming considering the iconic moments from the books we were supposed to be getting. 

 

Gitara - fell so flat, the actress was bad in the scene imo, the dialogue was terrible, Siuan and Moiraine's reactions were bad, it just didn't give any of the gravitas or importance of the Dragon being born that it should have. I didn't mind showing Moiraine and Siuan's relationship before the Foretelling at all, in fact I thought it was a nice addition to their backstory, but Gitara was so so poor

Flickerflicker - is that going to be our only bit of it? I will be so disappointed if we have no other version of it to be honest, as cool as it was to see some of Mat's foreshadowing

Lan and Rand - so brief, nowhere near what I hoped, 

Siuan and Rand - I actually don't mind Siuan's turn on him but my biggest annoyance was that Rand never felt like he worried her, even if she kept up a facade for him. I much preferred the book version where Rand, every bit as green as he is in the show (if not moreso), showed some more steel/ability to deal with the Amyrlin. And in the book wasn't the room filled with other Aes Sedai? Here he is facing one woman - yes the most powerful woman in the world, but still just one AS. How is he so easily shielded when he was holding the Source btw, wasn't it difficult to shield anyone once they were holding the Source in the books? 

 

I am relieved the stilling/shielded stuff is over with, but once more it just feels like something they did not handle well as a mystery/plot point. Same with the entirety of the Dragon "mystery" in S1, everyone is just relieved it's finally done rather than being like "oh that was good". Like the show was trying to tell us constantly that this was an important plot point to figure out but it never really grabbed me - and I should have been more engaged with the S2 one because I didn't actually know where they were going with it. But it just felt... boring? I don't know. 

 

Thoroughly enjoyed Anvaere and Barthanes, my partner shouted at the TV whenever Liandrin said "I'm not here to see her" hahaha, the absolute best thing the TV show has done are the Darkfriend reveals imo, it's caught my partner every time! But unlike many criticisms, I don't think the show has sacrificed anything to give the Shadow better characterisation, I just think they have done a really bad job with some of our main heroes when they've tried to give them characterisation. Lan and Rand are the biggest disappointments to me so far. There has been very little in Rand to make me root for him in the TV show. Similarly with Lan, he is so different from the books, I liked the new direction in S1 but honestly the entire Moiraine shielded/stilling plot completely hamstrung him. If they insisted on their split this early, I would have preferred if he went to Rand early to try and guide him against Moiraine's orders or something. 

 

There hasn't been enough of Perrin and Mat though I feel they are on the right track with both of the characters now in S2. Nynaeve has been totally sidelined since the Arches, let's be honest. Egwene was nowhere until episode 6 which was sensational imo. I don't buy that the sul'dam would just walk away after a damane says they will kill them. There should have been a punishment for that sentiment, maybe they felt ep6 did enough to show the brutality but just in the world I don't buy that she gets away with saying that. 

 

Disappointed we have had so little of Verin. And Ingtar's final moments is one of my favourite parts of the entire series, I know it will be nowhere near as impactful now. Also Ihvon following Tomas didn't seem to go anywhere as they were just immediately on the same side at the end of the episode? Rand doesn't feel any remorse for having Lanfear go on a murder spree to free him? 

 

Things I liked in the episode:

 

- Aviendha repaying her toh - thank god we are not getting spankings

- Mat with the best line of the season in S2 as well "Murder thing or sex thing?". I liked his hallucinations though as mentioned I'll be severely disappointed if that is the only version of flicker we ever get. 

- Anvaere and Barthanes as mentioned - surely Liandrin's cover is now blown? 

- Ishy and Lanfear are excellent villains and at this point, I am rooting for them haha

 

I think that was pretty much it, that's all that stuck in my memory as positives from the episode anyway. 

[Vartija]

I do wish they had developed something with Lan and Rand for Season 2. It would have been faithful to the spirit of the book as well as in TGH Lan has that rebellious streak where he guides Rand to act more independently. They could have expanded that into a S2 arc for the both of them: sword forms, life lessons, running into trouble, some humorous encounters. They still could have included Moiraine's & Lan's "divorce" into it as well and have Lan seek Rand out when Moiraine snubs him. Lan could have shared some of his troubles with Rand and vice versa. Then when they eventually reunite with Moiraine it could have been Rand who discovers Ishy's tied weaves on her. 

 

This way the Rand-Siuan meeting could have been a culmination of actual character development of Rand becoming a man instead of a couple of hasty lines before the event. Make that line "Lan has prepared you" really mean something.  

[Scarloc99]

On 9/29/2023 at 3:16 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

It fits with the books - Aes Sedai are smugly convinced that they know everything it is worth knowing (about the one power and everything else) and until something new is rubbed in their faces they do not admit it exists.   Aes Sedai do not know how to tie off weaves therefore they cannot be tied off and she is not able to think otherwise so she must be stilled.  

 

But I really do not like the "one forsaken could not have stilled you" - when Rand breaks the shield at Dumai's wells he stills multiple Aes Sedai at once.  

I always saw that as almost like a feedback event, we see it through the books, Egwene stills one of the dark sisters guarding them in tear. I think that is a specific situation that can't be anticipated like a "stilling" 

[Scarloc99]

On 9/29/2023 at 4:21 AM, Rhaze said:

 I am so freaking glad Moiraine's sister is NOT a dark friend. I am proud of her accomplishments in some silly kind of way and I did not want them to be lessened because of her being a DF.

But she now knows Liandrin is a dark friend, no weave to stop eaves dropping, just making the instruction in person like that, I wonder if this was Liandrin going rogue? Or the first hints of Lanfer working against ishy

[Scarloc99]

On 9/29/2023 at 6:46 AM, Rhaze said:

 I am guessing that they will use the suldam as a fake damane and dress as a suldam themselves to enter the kennels to find Egwene. That is when they realize that a suldam should not be able to wear a collar, and the secret is exposed.

 

 There were a few things to nitpick. Like someone above said, I thought it was poor writing to have Lan come out with the "I read some where that back in the age of legends they could tie off weaves".... just a silly thing to say. He could have said "Verin said she read some where..." and it would have made much more sense just by adding a few words.

 

 I am really curious if Moiraine's sister will now expose Liandrin or if she will stay out of Aes Sedai business. Liandrin should be getting exposed really soon.

If Verin had been the one to "hint" at the possibility that would have been another great little nod to her role in the books, she might have been made aware of what really happened to Moiraine and then been able to circumnavigate her vows to help. 

[Scarloc99]

On 9/29/2023 at 11:02 AM, Hippolyte said:

I still can't believe Moraine just left the Amyrlin Seat wounded on the ground before leaving town with the Dragon and a Forsaken! Why didn't she wait and use her new-found power to heal her lover of many years? She did the wrong thing, leaving her there. She is supposed to know right from wrong. The only way she might be able to redeem herself is to rescue all the Ais Sedai imprisoned in Farne.

Because she feels betrayed, hurt, upset, the relationship between her and Siuan is well and truly over meaning she can go and find solace in the arms of Thom and Siuan can learn the importance of keeping to Oaths with gareth. 

Siuan effectivley assaulted Moiraine, there is no coming back from that. 

[DreadLord31]

11 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Siuan effectivley assaulted Moiraine, there is no coming back from that. 

Well… I, for one, would NOT be surprised if they do have them come back from that. They prefer non-traditional relationships. So I doubt they keep Moiraine/Thom - they prefer Moiraine/Siuan. 
 

I bet they’ll be “broken up” for about … 7 episodes. Then they’ll randomly re-explain that Siuan thought Moiriaine was a DF because she said she was stilled & then all the sudden she can channel = she lied. Then Moiraine left with Lanfear = the AS characters will all think they’re DF’s and hunt them. Remember the line “If you are a darkfriend sworn to Lanfear, I will kill you where you stand.” ?? 
 

They will probably have Moiraine “win” against Lanfear which will convince Siuan that Moiraine isn’t a DF. And I doubt it’ll be the book way. They’re committed to keeping Moiraine as the main character… which I think is their biggest writing problem… 

but whatever. WAFO? 

Edited September 30, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Seaine's eyebrows]

13 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

Regarding the Adam removal, I've read someone speculating the ring the Suldam wear which has a similar symbol to the Adams chest piece is used as a key to unlock the Adam.

 

I like this, I did notice that ring during the sponge-down.

 

I wasn't all that keen on this episode, it was okay but I had to wait a day before I could watch it and it didn't really feel worth the wait!

 

My favourite part was when Egwene was braiding her hair in her kennel. Just made me smile, you know she's not able to fight against what's been done to her, but she can braid her hair and remember that she is Egwene from the (whoops that's right, there's no 'the' in the show 🤪) Two Rivers and they cannot take that from her, they will never break her as long as she remembers who she is and where she came from.

 

Next week should be good!! 🤞

 

[DreadLord31]

11 minutes ago, Seaine's eyebrows said:

Next week should be good!! 🤞

Well… 

We’ve been promised a battle on the scale of something from Gladiator. 

They’ve quadrupled down on “battle in the sky in fire.” And Rand being proclaim as the Dragon. 

Theyve set up Egwene for - beating down Renna & Nynaeve going “What the… did they do to you…?” 
 

Matt might finally do something (and it won’t be stab Rand…Fain will do that, trust me - watch Mins vision closely). 
 

Avi, Bain, and Chiad will show Perrin how real fighters fight… against Whitecloaks? And somehow the Shinarans will randomly appear so Ingtar can have a moment. 

 

Rand will sword fight Turok, but maybe Lan steps in to save his butt? Lan actually do something? I’m thinking… 

 

If Lanfear doesn’t try to do something sneaky to Moiraine … their writing makes no sense. 
 

The horn will be blown. Wait! Why wouldnt Turok blow the horn when he easily opened the chest & said “With this, the whole world will be ours.” Wasn’t this whole season suppose to have the Hunt for the Horn be a central feature? Oh well. We needed time for Lan to read and figure out Moiraine was shielded not stilled. 
 

What else… what else… 
 

 

[Skipp]

People have wondered what will Anvaere will do with the information that Liandrin is a darkfriend.  I wonder if they have set this up that who would trust Anvaere Damodred?  She claims her son is a darkfriend, her Sister broke the Dragon out of captivity, Her Sister left through a waygate with Lanfear(Maybe Suian won't mention this part).  This all might have some serious consequences for declaring another Aes Sedai is a darkfriend.

 

As for Suians turn in this episode, does anyone think she might have been complused? She hasn't really prepared the tower to support the Dragon.  Despite her concerns with Moiraine and her progress(even if I understand some of them) it seems like quite a turn and since they setup the idea of complusion earlier in the season....... maybe?  Even her line "It would have been easier if you had been born a girl"  really sounds like something Liandrin would say.

 

[MarcusM]

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

Well… 

We’ve been promised a battle on the scale of something from Gladiator. 

They’ve quadrupled down on “battle in the sky in fire.” And Rand being proclaim as the Dragon. 

Theyve set up Egwene for - beating down Renna & Nynaeve going “What the… did they do to you…?” 
 

Matt might finally do something (and it won’t be stab Rand…Fain will do that, trust me - watch Mins vision closely). 
 

Avi, Bain, and Chiad will show Perrin how real fighters fight… against Whitecloaks? And somehow the Shinarans will randomly appear so Ingtar can have a moment. 

 

Rand will sword fight Turok, but maybe Lan steps in to save his butt? Lan actually do something? I’m thinking… 

 

If Lanfear doesn’t try to do something sneaky to Moiraine … their writing makes no sense. 
 

The horn will be blown. Wait! Why wouldnt Turok blow the horn when he easily opened the chest & said “With this, the whole world will be ours.” Wasn’t this whole season suppose to have the Hunt for the Horn be a central feature? Oh well. We needed time for Lan to read and figure out Moiraine was shielded not stilled. 
 

What else… what else… 
 

 

Quadrupled down? What did I miss?

Yes. Yes. Good thinking!

 

I think the wild cards here are Ishy, Lanfear, Moi and Lan. The other plot lines should overall play out similar to the books. Yea yea yea, I know things are different with Uno, Aiel, Whitecloaks and more....

 

What is Ishy's end play here? Get Rand to turn as he sees his friends being tormented or turned to the shadow? I bet Egwene and Mat will be shown to Rand in desperate positions.

 

Lanfear will want Rand to gain power and proclaim himself. She wouldn't want Rand to turn. So she will scheme to disrupt the show. The question is how? Probably only indirectly... maybe she will bring the white cloaks to the party?

 

Moi and Lan just want to save the day I guess. How will they part with Rand and Lanfear? I think they will almost be too late for the party.

 

The wonder girls will save the day as always. Maybe the Heroes of the horn will contribute a bit?

Lan will cheer lead Moi as she does magic ninja tricks.

Loial will not do much.

NynEl will save Eg.

The Far Dareis Mai will show all men they know nothing generally and of dancing particularly.

Eg. will have some of the "replies" to Renna as suggested elsewhere here. We will have her swear she will not rest until the Seanchan is thrown back into the sea and every damane is uncollared.

 

The Season will all end with 3 things.

The dragon will proclaim himself.

The team will finally board Spray.

Ishy will free the rest of the Forsaken, realizing his first plan didn't go exactly as planned.

 

Rand will not do anything important and everyone will still wonder until next Season, "what's up with this useless boy?". No we will not see a proper fight with Ishy and Rand. The proclamation will be done in some other way. Most likely scenario it has something to do with the horn. Maybe the dragon bannor will magically manifest itself in the sky as the horn sounds?

 

Did we really get 4 different clues already to the actual battle taking place? Not just the proclamation itself?

 

Ahh yes, the motivation:

Turok wouldn't blow the horn as he would naturally want to gift it to the Empress to rise even higher in the blood, and maybe even be adopted by the royal family.

 

 

[Gary Again]

I wasn't a big fan of this one but it was mainly because of decisions that were made in the last episode. I had mentioned previously how Lan and Rand had a bond in the books where Rand just trusted Lan and he was one of the only people he could depend on without ever really doubting and it was one of the only relationships that Rand had like this. What the show did was bad because Lan put Rand in a location with 14 Aes Sedai unprepared and maybe even unaware of the threat he faced as I'm not sure Rand knew there were 13+ Aes Sedai there or what that could potentially mean. Then not only is it a risk as Rand is quickly shielded and imprisoned, could easily have been gentled and everything would have been finished if Rand didn't ask for the help of Lanfear to save him. If this was something Lan believed in strongly that may have been a tiny bit better (not very) but he clearly didn't as he actively tried to hide the information from Alanna and her warders, was held under duress and gave the information up (fairly quickly) to save his own life. Then the part about Siuan capturing Rand and Lan saying this wasn't part of the deal was such a cliche it honestly just made me laugh at that point. 

 

Then I guess the fact that this led to Rand asking for Lanfear's help which led to her just burning her way through the city. Rand is basically responsible for the murder of hundred's or potentially thousands of people because Lan and Siuan tried to take control of the situation and pull it in a not very great direction. In the books Cairhien burns because of the notes and taveren nature of Rand impacting the paranoid nobles it actually did have to do with the game of houses. Here it was bad decision making by Lan not being able to judge who he can trust. And yeah Lan telling Rand to face things on his feet for him to be taken out on his knees was kind of just the cherry on top. Not a fan of this one.

 

It was nice that we got the portal stone scene for at least Mat, I loved the tea as someone that has done his fair amount of mushrooms, I loved how it got to Ishy's goal in a great way and kind of liked how Mat responded to Ishy's point of view I think book Mat with all of his memory and battle may have resonated with this too so I could kind of get him just wanting to be done with it because he had been through so much. I feel like Ishy may be one point of view Mat could understand. The problem I had was that in the book scene living countless lives taught Rand that no matter what he tried to do he could not escape what was happening and there was no hope if he didn't accept his role as Dragon and Mat learned that if he turned on Rand or let him down everything fell apart so he saw how critical he was to everything. This is what set both of them on their paths in the book and had significant impact on their stories and here not only did we not get that but Mat seemed to take the exact opposite message from this experience. I guess this is one I'll WAFO because they could stick the landing. I did really like the scene with Mat and Ishy though the line from Mat was one of the best in the series and when Ishy was explaining his philosophy and holding Mat and his tear fell it was honestly a strangely beautiful scene and it came out of absolutely nowhere so I did like how unexpected it was.

 

Really liked Egwene's training and the way they set up her message to Renna. I like Elayne Nyneve linking up with Loial and Ingtar. Enjoyed Landrin walking into the Damondred residence like she owned the place and this whole story with Barthames and I also like that Moiraine's sister is not a DF. Liked Rand helping Moiraine with the shield but that whole reveal didn't seem well set up by anything we've seen in the show they should have had this be something Verin told Lan but who knows maybe they will merge the characters of Herid Fel and Lan lol. I still like the direction of the overall season but yeah this was by far my least favorite episode of the series which is a shame as most of these episodes leading up to this have been some of my favorites. 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Gary Again

[EmreY]

3 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Why wouldnt Turok blow the horn when he easily opened the chest

 

If you want to be a purist about it, the person blowing it must think not of glory but salvation.  And they follow the Dragon, usually.  I think it would be very funny if Turok blew the Horn. 🙂  

 

In the books, at least.  In the TV series, we'll WAFO.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by EmreY

[EmreY]

1 hour ago, MarcusM said:

Did we really get 4 different clues already to the actual battle taking place? Not just the proclamation itself?

 

At least three.  I do think four.

[Mirefox]

1 hour ago, EmreY said:

 

If you want to be a purist about it, the person blowing it must think not of glory but salvation.  And they follow the Dragon, usually.  I think it would be very funny if Turok blew the Horn. 🙂  

 

In the books, at least.  In the TV series, we'll WAFO.

 

 

Also, weren't they saving for the Empress?

[Agitel]

I can actually see taking Rand's duel with Turak and making it a moment for Lan to shine. Rand is in the duel. Perhaps shielded (?) and Turak toys with him. He's losing. Lanfear swoops in and takes the fight, finally looks useful. Rand realizes he really needs more training, Lan teaches him swordplay between S2 and S3 with some nod to that being made end of this season or start of the next.

[Wassup]

Lanfear took Matt to Falme for Ishy stating she lives for people to owe her, right?

 

maybe the costume designer meant she made the collar so it cannot be removed unless the actress is dead?  Egwene’s costumes for the rest of the series will all cover her neck so we cannot see the collar. 

[Rhaze]

49 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I can actually see taking Rand's duel with Turak and making it a moment for Lan to shine. Rand is in the duel. Perhaps shielded (?) and Turak toys with him. He's losing. Lanfear swoops in and takes the fight, finally looks useful. Rand realizes he really needs more training, Lan teaches him swordplay between S2 and S3 with some nod to that being made end of this season or start of the next.

 Or Rand is focused on his fight with Ish while Lan fights Turok.