New user, came to vent.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Aside from the general start of the story being incredibly Tolkien-esque, to say the particulars of the story do not match up - the female only magic wielders living in a great white tower on an island, the militant pseudo-religious order in white, etc, etc, - is twisting the facts completely. 

 

Many people don't like the changes, fair enough. But to represent their opinions as actual objective fact and to claim that all "true" fans agree with them, including the Jordan estate, his widow, Sanderson, etc, all secretly agree with them whatever they say in public is just wrong. 

 

The fact is that with airtime allotted to the show, no matter how faithful to the story it had tried to be, it was never going to be able to do so, especially not with the standards that some want to hold it to. 

[Goathill]

Doesn't the Witcher series have a tower on an island with female magic wielders, as for pseudo-religious military orders in white, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a half dozen of those.

[Andra]

10 hours ago, Goathill said:

... as for pseudo-religious military orders in white, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a half dozen of those.

All of which can be said to be based on the real-world Templars.

[Tombstoned]

I am one of those also that stopped watching in season 1. I have been reading these books since they came out. Bought my first one, eye of the world, in 1990. Ever since I could not wait for the next book to come out. Since then, I have read the series about 10 times. I was so eagerly waiting for this to be turned into something like what Peter Jackson did with the lord of the rings. Or at least a mini series worthy of the story. When they announced the tv series I was waiting on pins and needles for it to come out... I couldn't sit still when the first episode began on the screen.. I was literally pacing back and forth. As I watched the show play out I began to sit down with my mouth hanging open in disbelief... I gave the next few episodes a shot just to see if they would get back to the original story somehow... I was hoping to see certain things from the books that the show just completely skipped... needless to say I was more than disappointed. I understand how some stories are changed to better suite the screen than pages, but this was completely ridiculous. I stopped watching and haven't watched since... I will wait until someone does it right... this new TV show is abysmal and the changes made to the story and the people are akin to making the story of jesus out of pink legos with the apostles being the boys choir of woke land. I cant say enough bad about the show... Jordan has to be turning over in his grave of embarrassment of what they did... I hope the show gets canceled, they have ruined it.

[muddasssir]

LOL, I know it will annoy a lot of people me starting post with LOL, but you can either laugh or cry. I have always prefered to laugh. On the whole the entire idea of show is preopsterous to say the least. No one objects to changes. Look at LOTR Trilogy they finshed each book in a movie and did a remarkable job of it. they had 8 episodes to do a season and they did a piss poor job of it. What people support or like about the show. I really don't understand or want to understand. As for stop watching I have tried to watch it on 4-5 different occassions from different parts of series and have given up in disgust each time after 10 minutes. I really don't know where are they finding the audience for this travesty to continue. 

[muddasssir]

On 6/6/2024 at 9:13 AM, expat said:

You don't have to show anything and can criticize the series anyway you want.  The rest of us will just think that your criticisms are shallow and uninteresting.

Are you sure you are getting paid enough to write this bad an argument?

[muddasssir]

On 6/6/2024 at 4:06 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think the problem of using a scene by scene example of how it could be closer to the book, is that it does not take into account the bigger picture. Obviously this doesn't make it invalid - for example, the last embrace of the mother scene was set-up, it was filmed, and then cut. Taking this point alone, you can easily see the show would have been improved by keeping it in. But the reasons it was cut - which might be timing, about keeping the focus somewhere else, pacing, I mean, I dunno, not a TV director myself - is not taken into account.

 

Also for things like Egwene and the a'dam, that could be more related or partially at least to the decision to make the tower the climax point of the episode. Again, I cannot comment on why they might do this, but it could be that this decision was made before how is Egwene rescued. 

 

Simply making every scene as like the books as possible I don't think would lead to good television any more than only focusing on how each scene looked visually would make good television. Not least as the underlying connection of scene to scene is totally ignored there. While everyone complains about the lack of runtime - it seems many people ignore the impact that alone has on being able to tell any story. That doesn't mean that the show is as good as it possibly could be, or makes it immune from criticism, but it does feel like many are not willing to accept how difficult a job adapting the book, which is famous for its slow pacing, its beginning as a completely different story, the innumerable characters, its huge length, into 8 hours per book and a bit. 

 

But yes ultimately everyone is allowed their own opinion about how well it has been done, also those that like this attempt.

lol I can bet they are not paying you nearly enough for all the hardwork you are putting in. Are they?

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 hour ago, muddasssir said:

lol I can bet they are not paying you nearly enough for all the hardwork you are putting in. Are they?

 

It is a shame your ability to accept that other people can have different opinions from you is so limited. You must be very happy having the one true opinion. 

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, muddasssir said:

LOL, I know it will annoy a lot of people me starting post with LOL, but you can either laugh or cry. I have always prefered to laugh. On the whole the entire idea of show is preopsterous to say the least. No one objects to changes. Look at LOTR Trilogy they finshed each book in a movie and did a remarkable job of it. they had 8 episodes to do a season and they did a piss poor job of it. What people support or like about the show. I really don't understand or want to understand. As for stop watching I have tried to watch it on 4-5 different occassions from different parts of series and have given up in disgust each time after 10 minutes. I really don't know where are they finding the audience for this travesty to continue. 

I'm with you in that Rafe and team did a piss poor job with the show.  But you just wrote an entire paragraph without giving a single example of what you didn't like.

 

Here are some of my dislikes:

• Super-ninja Nynaeve taking out trollocs solo
• Lan throwing his belt knife at a charging trolloc making it fly backward
• Terrible fight choreography in general, but specifically with Lan - a blademaster
• Healing explosions
• Perrin having a wife, killing her, then the subsequent arc...
• Adding characters, subtracting others, changing who does what...

But I also liked some changes:

• Aging up the main Emond's Field characters
• Removing the Pollyannaish shine from EF
• Bringing Logain in early
• Moiraine using stones from the inn to blast trollocs

And I could add more to each category.  My long-winded point is - if you're coming here to complain about the show, give us something to talk about.  Then we can agree, disagree, and have a conversation.

[Elder_Haman]

5 hours ago, muddasssir said:

Are you sure you are getting paid enough to write this bad an argument?

The idea that one can only speak positively about the show if one is being paid to do so is offensive and not productive. 

[Goathill]

10 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I'm with you in that Rafe and team did a piss poor job with the show.  But you just wrote an entire paragraph without giving a single example of what you didn't like.

 

Here are some of my dislikes:

• Super-ninja Nynaeve taking out trollocs solo
• Lan throwing his belt knife at a charging trolloc making it fly backward
• Terrible fight choreography in general, but specifically with Lan - a blademaster
• Healing explosions
• Perrin having a wife, killing her, then the subsequent arc...
• Adding characters, subtracting others, changing who does what...

But I also liked some changes:

• Aging up the main Emond's Field characters
• Removing the Pollyannaish shine from EF
• Bringing Logain in early
• Moiraine using stones from the inn to blast trollocs

And I could add more to each category.  My long-winded point is - if you're coming here to complain about the show, give us something to talk about.  Then we can agree, disagree, and have a conversation.

 

Each to their own. 

 

You may like those changes, but I can not tell you one single thing they changed that I like, for me to like a change it needs to be good. 

 

I really get a kick out of the Pollyannaish EF arguments when Cenn Buie, and the Congars and Coplins are repeatedly talked about as at best troublemakers.

 

 

[king of nowhere]

12 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Here are some of my dislikes:

• Super-ninja Nynaeve taking out trollocs solo
• Lan throwing his belt knife at a charging trolloc making it fly backward
• Terrible fight choreography in general, but specifically with Lan - a blademaster
• Healing explosions
• Perrin having a wife, killing her, then the subsequent arc...
• Adding characters, subtracting others, changing who does what...

But I also liked some changes:

• Aging up the main Emond's Field characters
• Removing the Pollyannaish shine from EF
• Bringing Logain in early
• Moiraine using stones from the inn to blast trollocs

 

fun fact, i agree on each of those likes and dislikes, but my overall opinion of the show is positive.

it all comes down to the glass half full in the end

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

5 hours ago, Goathill said:

I really get a kick out of the Pollyannaish EF arguments when Cenn Buie, and the Congars and Coplins are repeatedly talked about as at best troublemakers.

In the books they are no more threatening than the Saxville-Baggins' in LOTR.  In the show they have added heavy drinking, womanising, gambling and an implication of Mat acting as a thief or gigolo (depending on your interpretation of how he got the jewelry he sells to Padan Fain).  Overall a far more gritty two rivers compared to the shire-ish view in the books.

[Figs and Mice]

Hey Dojo Toad  ...  I agree with you on almost everything in your list of likes and dislikes above...

 

But  : I hated the "Moiraine using stones from the inn to blast trollocs" thing.  Struck me as an illogically complicated use of force . Just fry the wretched creatures surely ? Why wreck the infrastructure in the process ? Too gimmicky for me. 

 

Which I guess just goes to show you can't please all of the people all the time  🙂

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Figs and Mice said:

Hey Dojo Toad  ...  I agree with you on almost everything in your list of likes and dislikes above...

 

But  : I hated the "Moiraine using stones from the inn to blast trollocs" thing.  Struck me as an illogically complicated use of force . Just fry the wretched creatures surely ? Why wreck the infrastructure in the process ? Too gimmicky for me. 

 

Which I guess just goes to show you can't please all of the people all the time  🙂

I think it's because throwing stones uses air, and women are stronger with air than fire. In general, we see women fighting with air more often

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, Figs and Mice said:

Hey Dojo Toad  ...  I agree with you on almost everything in your list of likes and dislikes above...

 

But  : I hated the "Moiraine using stones from the inn to blast trollocs" thing.  Struck me as an illogically complicated use of force . Just fry the wretched creatures surely ? Why wreck the infrastructure in the process ? Too gimmicky for me. 

 

Which I guess just goes to show you can't please all of the people all the time  🙂

It was a bit over the top - and there had to be people hiding in there.  Oops!

 

Visually I just thought it looked awesome but I can see how it wouldn't work for everyone.

[Samt]

27 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

It was a bit over the top - and there had to be people hiding in there.  Oops!

 

Visually I just thought it looked awesome but I can see how it wouldn't work for everyone.

It's odd that fantasy often portrays battle magic as a toolbox when practically speaking it would probably mostly just be a gun equivalent.  While some situations that require creative problem solving might arise occasionally, much of the time the magic wielder just needs to kill or incapacitate a number of roughly humanoid enemies.  There should be a best way to do that and it should pretty much always be the best.  Of course, that gets boring, but it's a bit weird to me that magic users are so often getting creative in battle.  

 

Is Moiraine good at throwing stones?  Great.  She should pretty much always default to that.  Or is it lightning bolts or fireballs?  Also fine.  But there needs to be a justification for switching it up and most fantasy is weak on this front.  Not really about the show in particular and I get why it happens.  But just a sort of side-tangent.  

[Skipp]

The scene is also a visual aide to the audience to show people unfamiliar with the books the versatility of the One Power.  And while it would be more efficient to just have Moiraine kill all the trollocs with fire it is boring visually.

 

But as we see in the battle with Logain's followers, and in the new teaser, Alanna seems to resort to an earth weave for attacking.  So we get a scene introducing new audience members to the versatility of the OP and then we see that Aes Sedai tend to go with what they know in battle. 

 

I suppose this could also be an allegory that unlike most Aes Sedai Moiraine is more open minded in how she approaches problems.

[Elder_Haman]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

It was a bit over the top - and there had to be people hiding in there.  Oops!

 

Visually I just thought it looked awesome but I can see how it wouldn't work for everyone.

My main criticism of that battle is that it was too long. Moiraine and Lan’s intervention should have immediately and definitively turned the tide. 
 

[A Memory Of Why]

I liked that they gave us the trollock attack, it's going to be a fun contrast with what's coming with Perrin.

 

Really enjoyed Moraine and Lan fighting together and her using multiple weaves was great.

 

The inn throwing part though.. look was visually pleasing and it was cool how what appeared to be earth and fire threads were used to weaken the mortar, and yes quite cinematic and sweet how Lan.. 👀 protected her from a dust cloud but..

 

It kinda bugged me, I realised my issue here was something similar I had with the books in how the Aes Sedai aren't really inventive or versatile with there weaves, it's mostly the same 7 or so weaves used in the same way.. mostly.

 

Like for this scene, Moraine is no longer sorounded with a couple dozen Trollocks charger her.. let's Evil Dead this with 1 razor sharp whip of air, with a high RPM to turn our enemies into bits and pieces in a very efficient way.

 

Like yeah, not really as showy or dramatic so how about..

 

She pulls down a half destroyed building on some, creates a bonfire, drops a couple of lightning strikes and finishes the rest off with.. you guessed it, duel wielding razor sharp whips of air!

 

What I'm trying to say is, I'm very disappointed with the lack of representation of razor sharp whips of air in fantasy 😤

Edited Saturday at 10:46 PM by A Memory Of Why

[Andra]

On 12/13/2024 at 6:37 AM, Elder_Haman said:

The idea that one can only speak positively about the show if one is being paid to do so is offensive and not productive. 

As is the idea that any criticism of the show can be dismissed as "shallow and uninteresting."

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Andra said:

As is the idea that any criticism of the show can be dismissed as "shallow and uninteresting."

Fortunately, I have never suggested such a thing. 

[Sabio]

My biggest fear still is all the material that has to be covered in just eight episodes.  Just not sure how they can do it all justice.  All the stuff Rand alone needs to do could fill the eight episodes.

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

7 hours ago, Sabio said:

My biggest fear still is all the material that has to be covered in just eight episodes.  Just not sure how they can do it all justice.  All the stuff Rand alone needs to do could fill the eight episodes.

I would agree, but they waste so much time coming up with their own story line, which would be fine if they had more episodes. Since they don't, how about staying on the original story and not add stuff.

[expat]

6 hours ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

I would agree, but they waste so much time coming up with their own story line, which would be fine if they had more episodes. Since they don't, how about staying on the original story and not add stuff.

This argument is used all the time and doesn't really pass any serious thought.  Let's take it in order:

 

1. Do you agree that to fit the material in the time frame of the series, they have to cut and combine things from the books?

2. Do you agree that there is material from the cut/combined portions that are still necessary to introduce into the series?

3. Do you agree that there are important elements of the books that don't work well on screen?

4. Do you agree that most of the lore development in the books were verbal instead of visual?

5. Do you agree that there are elements of the books which are not perfect and can be improved?  In my case examples include thinking the ending of book 1 and the characterization of EF were both poor in the books.  While the series didn't improve on the ending of book 1, they did improve the characterization of EF (as discussed above).

6. Do you agree that much of the characterization of the main characters was POV and could not be shown directly on screen?

 

So if you agree with me on some or all of the above points, please tell me how they can fix them without introducing new material not in the books?

 

1/2. Cut or combined material is in not in the books, so they require new material to introduce.

3. Since they are trying to produce and interesting TV series, important book material that doesn't work on screen needs to rewritten so that it makes interesting TV while keeping the story moving forward.

4. World development is important.  Doing it with dialogue makes a very clunky TV series.  Creating visual scenes to introduce world development is a better option.

5. New scenes are needed to fix book problems.  Whether they are done well or badly is an individual decision, but just putting bad book stuff on screen is not the right answer.

6. POV can't be put on screen.  New material is required.  Since most characterization is done via POV in the books, this step can't be skipped.  The characterization is critical to the story and absolutely requires new material.

 

Like or dislike some (or all) of the new material, but to make blanket statements about the need to stay with the original story is just silly.  If you think it can, you also need to address the structural issues (like the ones above, but also includes technical issues like availability of actors/sets etc.) that mitigate against just putting book material on screen.