New user, came to vent.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Sometimes I really wonder if the concept of adapting something for a different medium is so alien to people. 

 

Obviously the makers of the show have their own take - such as the enlargement of Moiraine's role - her fleshed out relationship with Suian, her aging so that the effect of her greatly lengthened life can be examined and shown, the attention given to her and Lan's relationship. But these are a change of emphasis, which should still be illuminating the same world and story.

 

There are lots of things about the show that I find disappointing, so I can understand for some people that it can be even more disappointing. There are really a lot of issues that they could have kept more accurate to the lore and still told the same story. 

 

I still find it worrying that so many people take Mat's parents as such an example of sexism. Mat's father is worse than the books, an attack on all men. Mat's mother is worse than in the books, an attack on Mat and all men. Just as long as we are being consistent.

 

For Perrin, his character has been not destroyed - he did not murder his wife. Nor was she fridged - that trope is particularly about how male characters are motivated in a story by the antagonist infringing their patriarchal property. This is not the case here. What I would say is more relevant is that they have done exactly nothing with this addition to Perrin's character. And it gives him a reason to avoid the Two Rivers - while Mat is given a compelling reason to return, which again as of yet they have done very little with.

 

It is a shame for the accuracy of the show that the first season had to be different, given that the Dragon being teased could not be done when it was publicized that the show was all about the Dragon. Given the sensible choice to make the starting characters act like literal children or hobbits, and the greater emphasis on Moiraine, the changes forced by needing to simplify the number of locations, etc, the lack of budget... And then the troubles that have plagued it since due to corona, schedule conflicts due to corona, Barney dropping out, etc, meaning that the end of season one was a literal disaster and season two must have been rewritten several times.

 

But for me there is more than enough to keep the show very enjoyable, and I am eager for more. And I'll never understand those that refuse to watch it because Rand has sex with Egwene. As if that makes a difference, but yeah, as I say, I don't understand it.

Edited January 11 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade
not is a rather important word...

[Mirefox]

Some people can’t taste the subtleties between different glasses of wine and are happy with a mediocre house red.

 

Some people don’t know the difference between a prime cut of beef and chuck and are happy with whatever steak they are served.

 

Some people can’t differentiate the tone of a show with its basic plot map and are happy with whatever they’re served as long as point A and point B are the same.

 

Others are more sensitive to subtle and non-tangible change and recognize how it alters the end product.

[DojoToad]

On 1/11/2024 at 4:38 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

But for me there is more than enough to keep the show very enjoyable, and I am eager for more. And I'll never understand those that refuse to watch it because Rand has sex with Egwene. As if that makes a difference, but yeah, as I say, I don't understand it.

I disliked many changes in the show, but I liked several too: aging up the characters, Logain prominent early, Moiraine bigger role, Mat's family having major issues, etc.

 

I refuse to watch the show because I think it was horribly executed.  Terrible fight choreography overall, Lan looking like he had two-weeks of sword training at the corner McDojo, superfluous time spent on peripheral characters, not enough time on main characters, writing overall, short Ogiers 😁, etc.

 

I think the adaptation changes shocked me at first.  Now it just comes down to quality of the final product, which I know is heavily shaded by personal preferences.  Some enjoy it and others don't for whatever reason.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Of course everyone will have a different opinion of the overall quality of the show. The first series I would say had some huge production issues - a lot of scenes looked like low quality LARPing, especially with Rand's trademark shearling oversize coat. The end of the season, even with COVID and missing cast members at times is shockingly awful, like they just gave up and let the YTS guy have a go.

 

It just annoys me when people want to change from discussion the show to politics, and even then assumed politics rather than what people have actually come and said. Or the attempt to prove "bad writing" which mean you have "bad writers" which means it is a "bad show" and should be cancelled, rather than looking at it as a thing that does somethings well, somethings not so well, somethings badly.

 

New content in an IP should always be welcomed, even if it is not pulled off well. And for me, the show is good, and is also markedly improved in the second season. But of course, everyone else's milage may vary, and imho, these forums should be about discussing the successes and failures not for mounting attempts to vilify the whole endeavor, or sanctify it either. Hmm, not sure I am using sanctify correctly but too lazy to check so I'll just explain that here in detail instead. Much easier.

[dwn]

On 1/11/2024 at 5:33 PM, Mirefox said:

Some people can’t taste the subtleties between different glasses of wine and are happy with a mediocre house red.

 

Some people don’t know the difference between a prime cut of beef and chuck and are happy with whatever steak they are served.

 

Some people can’t differentiate the tone of a show with its basic plot map and are happy with whatever they’re served as long as point A and point B are the same.

 

Others are more sensitive to subtle and non-tangible change and recognize how it alters the end product.

 

Some people also accept that different things each have strengths and weaknesses and can appreciate them for what they are.

 

I'd never say the show is perfect; I'd also never say the books are a perfect. I enjoy (most of) the book version of the story more, but I also think the show has made some very good decisiions--alongside questionable ones--given the medium and constraints it's under.

[swans2win]

As I sit here typing and looking at my bookcase with its dog-eared and tattered copies of Jordan/Sanderson's works, I can only wonder why they even bothered to call the series "Wheel Of Time".

I watched the first season through gritted teeth after years of expectation and the recent success of the Game of Thrones in mind. 

The realty hit home almost immediately when I was introduced to Perrin's wife(?), at this point I should have stopped watching and began to read the books again.

The characterisations that I've cemented into my psyche have been bastardised so heavily that neither the plot nor the special effects can save it. 

I was encouraged by my son to try season 2 after he'd had better reports but I am at a loss to understand what I'm watching.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

5 minutes ago, swans2win said:

As I sit here typing and looking at my bookcase with its dog-eared and tattered copies of Jordan/Sanderson's works, I can only wonder why they even bothered to call the series "Wheel Of Time".

I watched the first season through gritted teeth after years of expectation and the recent success of the Game of Thrones in mind. 

The realty hit home almost immediately when I was introduced to Perrin's wife(?), at this point I should have stopped watching and began to read the books again.

The characterisations that I've cemented into my psyche have been bastardised so heavily that neither the plot nor the special effects can save it. 

I was encouraged by my son to try season 2 after he'd had better reports but I am at a loss to understand what I'm watching.

That is a shame to hear. 

 

I can understand when there is such a gulf between your expectations and reality that it can be disorientating. 

[HeroAndros]

I came into the show with very low expectations. Why? Because it is a massive fantasy being adapted to a TV show. Even if it had been a movie I would have been leery because high fantasy does not translate to screen very well, and everyone is going to want an absolute faithful adaptation. LOTR is a great example, because all these years later you still have people complaining it wasn't a shot for shot reproduction despite being a massive success and quite frankly paving the way for something like WoT to happen.

 

Have I been disappointed in what I've seen? In many regards, yes. But this is absolutely an adaptation, and it has been clearly laid out that this is not the 3rd age we all know. It is a completely different turning, and thus things will be different. Overall I've liked what they have done, even with some of the odder changes and choices that they have made.

 

I'm also watching it with my spouse, who I spent YEARS trying to get them to read the books and they simply could not get out of the Two Rivers. They love the series, and I love that they do. It being accessible is exactly what the fandom needs. I do my best to stay away from spoilers, and not react too much to the changes, but inevitably we discuss how that episode or the season overall played out in the books and in doing so it's allowed me to see and understand why some of the changes were made.

 

TLdr: No adaptation will make everyone happy, it's impossible. As readers we must understand this isn't the story we know, or even the characters we know. It's a new turn, a portal world if you will. In the end it keeps WoT, and high fantasy in general. relevant in a world overrun by subpar literature.

[DojoToad]

11 hours ago, HeroAndros said:

I came into the show with very low expectations. Why? Because it is a massive fantasy being adapted to a TV show. Even if it had been a movie I would have been leery because high fantasy does not translate to screen very well, and everyone is going to want an absolute faithful adaptation. LOTR is a great example, because all these years later you still have people complaining it wasn't a shot for shot reproduction despite being a massive success and quite frankly paving the way for something like WoT to happen.

 

Have I been disappointed in what I've seen? In many regards, yes. But this is absolutely an adaptation, and it has been clearly laid out that this is not the 3rd age we all know. It is a completely different turning, and thus things will be different. Overall I've liked what they have done, even with some of the odder changes and choices that they have made.

 

I'm also watching it with my spouse, who I spent YEARS trying to get them to read the books and they simply could not get out of the Two Rivers. They love the series, and I love that they do. It being accessible is exactly what the fandom needs. I do my best to stay away from spoilers, and not react too much to the changes, but inevitably we discuss how that episode or the season overall played out in the books and in doing so it's allowed me to see and understand why some of the changes were made.

 

TLdr: No adaptation will make everyone happy, it's impossible. As readers we must understand this isn't the story we know, or even the characters we know. It's a new turn, a portal world if you will. In the end it keeps WoT, and high fantasy in general. relevant in a world overrun by subpar literature.

I've never understood the 'it is a different turning' perspective.  If it is a different turning, change the names of the characters.  Would make it easier to swallow the other story changes because the differences in the adaptation from the book would be more obvious - for me at least.

 

Birgitte, for example, had many different names and adventures that were tied to her through the Ages.  So if it is another turning change Rand, Egwene, Logain, and etc.  There can be some overlap from events in the books because there are no beginnings, but the differences wouldn't be as jarring and maybe even welcome because it is obviously not the books that were adapted, but the world.  We would expect changes but still have a familiar world that we could comfortably sink in to.

 

🤷‍♂️ Just Monday morning quarterbacking...

[HeroAndros]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

I've never understood the 'it is a different turning' perspective.  If it is a different turning, change the names of the characters.  Would make it easier to swallow the other story changes because the differences in the adaptation from the book would be more obvious - for me at least.

 

Birgitte, for example, had many different names and adventures that were tied to her through the Ages.  So if it is another turning change Rand, Egwene, Logain, and etc.  There can be some overlap from events in the books because there are no beginnings, but the differences wouldn't be as jarring and maybe even welcome because it is obviously not the books that were adapted, but the world.  We would expect changes but still have a familiar world that we could comfortably sink in to.

 

🤷‍♂️ Just Monday morning quarterbacking...

Not wrong, but the important note here is "through the ages".

 

This is still the Third Age, for all we know every Third Age has these same people using the same names. 

 

The different turning is Rafe's words, but I do think looking at it like a portal world fits a bit better. Yes these are all people and things we are familiar with, but there's just something a little different.

[dwn]

On 1/29/2024 at 9:07 AM, DojoToad said:

I've never understood the 'it is a different turning' perspective.  If it is a different turning, change the names of the characters.  Would make it easier to swallow the other story changes because the differences in the adaptation from the book would be more obvious - for me at least.

I agree. Whether or not you enjoy it, the show was always going to be different than the books--there's no nead for creative justifications.

[Goathill]

I understand an adaptation will vary from the original story, but any WoT adaptation that cannot grasp that the Dragon/Lews Therin a man that uses Saidin is a constant in each turning has lost the plot and is no longer in the world of WoT. 

 

Also they made Lan cry, for that alone the show is a failure. 

Edited February 15 by Goathill

[Elder_Haman]

26 minutes ago, Goathill said:

any WoT adaptation that cannot grasp that the Dragon/Lews Therin a man that uses Saidin is a constant in each turning has lost the plot and is no longer in the world of WoT.

It’s a good thing the show does grasp that fact, I guess. 

[Goathill]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

It’s a good thing the show does grasp that fact, I guess. 

In the first minute of the show it says the Dragon could be a man or a woman.

 

So your definition of grasp seems a little off.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Goathill said:

In the first minute of the show it says the Dragon could be a man or a woman.

 

So your definition of grasp seems a little off.

And yet, if you actually watch the show, it becomes clear that the Aes Sedai have it all wrong by thinking that. The opening narration is wrong because the narrator is unreliable. 

[Skipp]

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

And yet, if you actually watch the show, it becomes clear that the Aes Sedai have it all wrong by thinking that. The opening narration is wrong because the narrator is unreliable. 

Characters in WoT stating things as fact when they have imperfect information, that could never happen 😉

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

47 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Characters in WoT stating things as fact when they have imperfect information, that could never happen 😉

Definitely never happened in the novels. Not even once. 😜

[Maximillion]

Season 3 looks like it will be in 2025.

I don't see how this show can survive 8 episodes every 2 years.

There does seem to be a trend now that shows' seasons are released with bigger gaps than ever before, but with just 8 episodes and a long wait between, even a well-made show would struggle, never mind WOT.

Ominous that season 4 has not been green lit.

 

Won't be at all surprised if season 3 is the last.

 

I look forward to the coming years where AI can create shows and movies and fans can do it themselves - then we won't need people like Rafe Judkins to destroy cherished works or literature.

 

Edited March 2 by Maximillion

[muddasssir]

On 10/5/2023 at 10:07 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Okay, fair. But would you agree that the overall quality of the show has improved from S1 to S2? Better CGI, better writing, stronger acting, etc.?

I am sorry but it is people like you and if Jason is still running this website. Him allowing people like you to run amok is the reason people like me do not come back to this site. There is something to be said about moderation, but the way you guys decide everything in a high handed manner is unacceptable. I came here today after years because I was depressed. Now, you have made me suicidal angry thanks mate

[Elder_Haman]

 

24 minutes ago, muddasssir said:

I am sorry but it is people like you and if Jason is still running this website. Him allowing people like you to run amok is the reason people like me do not come back to this site. There is something to be said about moderation, but the way you guys decide everything in a high handed manner is unacceptable. I came here today after years because I was depressed. Now, you have made me suicidal angry thanks mate

First, if you are truly contemplating self harm, please seek help. 
 

Second, I’m not sure what I’ve decided or how I’ve been “high handed”. I asked a simple question. 

[Figs and Mice]

Seems this general topic will continue to divide posters - and fair to say there are one or two who are maybe slightly over zealous ? in defence of the show : with others equally determined to take issue with almost everything about it ... 

Haven't entered into the discussion before and afraid I won't really add anything very useful ; but just to make my views known :

 

Overall somewhat disappointed by the TV show - but in truth I came into it rather expecting that . As others have pointed out , adapting 14 books in which a huge amount of the story is told through the internal monologues of POV characters was always going to be "difficult" to say the least. And of course the urge to appeal to a wider audience than the avid book fans was also likely to lead to some , shall we say , cheap tricks ? - to spice up the action. Bit more sex , more big explosions early , characters doing things they aren't really qualified to do yet... so ready to forgive some of the initial changes. (The COVID issue also obviously made life harder for everyone so cutting more slack on that account)

 

So even if things didn't match what I had in my mind's eye ( we all had pictures of the main characters , I am sure , based largely on descriptions : and fair to say some of them are not at all alike ... but I can live with that.) And if the entrance to The Ways was a bit of a downgrade on the books , it's just one detail (I will be savage if the Tower of Ghenjei  is scrubbed though ! But if Mat's already acquired his memories and talents , suggesting the 'Finn aren't going to be needed , that looms as a danger. Ouch.)  Ah well , have to enjoy whatever they do offer...

                       

But where I do feel a bit let down is in the weakness of some of the writing. The ending for the first season was awful - as I think even the supporters of the show concede. COVID alibi , yeah. And to be fair the book ending of EOTW was a bit messy so again , difficult to get right. But honestly Tarwin's Gap just looked silly - they'd have been better off leaving it off screen altogether and just reporting some version of events back in the city from returning troops. As for :" she has a tell" - oh please ! And the need for confecting some kind of unrequited love triangle among the EF five ? Just poor...but not enough to stop me returning for season two.

 

And honestly , second season much better, Plenty of divergence from the books , some flat bits - but generally pretty good I thought.  Until the end ... and then once again they made a pigs breakfast of the final scenes. With all the CGI ability they have , why reduce the battle for Falme to a lot of hand to hand street fighting , with the Heroes of the Horn (who had scant introduction) merely beating up a couple of dozen Seanchan guards ?  And then (over)compensate for spectacle by having Moiraine almost casually wipe out the entire invading fleet with a few fireballs...I mean , who needs The Dragon ?  And while the subtlety of Ishy basically letting Rand stab him - while rather early in the story ! - has some appeal , it made for a rather limp finish. Some people claim they are happy with all that but I reckon it rather spoiled what had been a hugely improved effort for seven episodes.

 

Anyway , still ready to watch on and hope the third season will again improve. Even if it doesn't , at least glad they finally got around to putting the story on film and I am grateful to the showrunners for that , so don't want to come across as a total grouch. Just a touch of fear that the further TV shows slip away from the source material (eg late season GOT !) the worse they get. In this case the story is all written so maybe all will be fine in the end : keeping fingers crossed !

[Skipp]

10 hours ago, Figs and Mice said:

                       

But where I do feel a bit let down is in the weakness of some of the writing. The ending for the first season was awful - as I think even the supporters of the show concede. COVID alibi , yeah. And to be fair the book ending of EOTW was a bit messy so again , difficult to get right. But honestly Tarwin's Gap just looked silly - they'd have been better off leaving it off screen altogether and just reporting some version of events back in the city from returning troops. As for :" she has a tell" - oh please ! And the need for confecting some kind of unrequited love triangle among the EF five ? Just poor...but not enough to stop me returning for season two.

 

And honestly , second season much better, Plenty of divergence from the books , some flat bits - but generally pretty good I thought.  Until the end ... and then once again they made a pigs breakfast of the final scenes. With all the CGI ability they have , why reduce the battle for Falme to a lot of hand to hand street fighting , with the Heroes of the Horn (who had scant introduction) merely beating up a couple of dozen Seanchan guards ?  And then (over)compensate for spectacle by having Moiraine almost casually wipe out the entire invading fleet with a few fireballs...I mean , who needs The Dragon ?  And while the subtlety of Ishy basically letting Rand stab him - while rather early in the story ! - has some appeal , it made for a rather limp finish. Some people claim they are happy with all that but I reckon it rather spoiled what had been a hugely improved effort for seven episodes.

 

 

 

Spot on analysis.  I really liked the ending of season 1, at least the stuff that happened at the Eye with Rand, Moiraine and Ishy. This part of the ending feels like it will come full circle if we make it to the end of the series.

 

It sucks that Daniel Henney's part had to be cut down majorly due to other filming commitments from what I understand and losing whatever the original story Mat and Perrin would have gone through.  But yeah everything to do with Tarwins Gap was just underwhelming at best.

[Goehler]

I totally agree. I utterly hate what they have done with the TV show. And I'm rather depressed that it even exists. It is an insult to the books, and to the art of storytelling in general. 

[Kevin Ray]

I came to say this very thing.  I've never been a joiner in the WoT online community.  I picked up WoT when book one came out and have re-read the entire series every time a new book was released.  I have listened to the audio books a few times as well.  I have been a long-standing fan of the series since its inception.  Years ago, there were teasing's of a series, but it never came to pass.  However, when this started to come about, I was absolutely ecstatic.  I waited with bated breath for the first episode and was sorely disappointed from episode 1.  The cast is horrible; the script writing is pathetic; the character development is abysmal; the acting is mediocre at best; the sceanery is crowded; and the series itself is rushed to conclusions.  I think Amazon decided to do this as cheaply as they could and refused good production studios in favor of cheap ones.  As a result, this garbage was produced.  I wish I could apologize to Robert Jordan for the hatchet job these people did to the beloved story he produced and touched so many people with.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Kevin Ray said:

I think Amazon decided to do this as cheaply as they could and refused good production studios in favor of cheap ones.

They’re spending approximately $10 million per episode. So, no, they did not do this cheaply. 
 

Sorry you don’t enjoy the show.