WoT Season 2 Episode 4: Daughter of the Night

[Scarloc99]

3 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Only if you're determined to view Show!Liandrin as being one-dimensionally evil.

That, the stroke of Moiraine, the comment to Leane, the people I know who have never read the books all think she is just rotten and bad, which matches the books because they have seen enough now in her actions to piece it all together that she is one of the really bad guys. A couple of people asked me if she was a foresaken. So in my circle of friends everyone has come to the same agreement, and this is with me refusing to give them any book spoilers. 

[Scarloc99]

6 minutes ago, Guire said:

2 things I noticed not commented on so far.  Rands dealing with Fade was was big call back to Wonder Girls sucking Fade into a flaming black hole when they were captured by outlaws.

 

Possible biggest nitpick of entire show.  How come no one in entire film crew and actors not know how to mop.  Elayne I can buy as daughter heir but inn keeper heir Egwene should be forever shamed for that mop job.  I was hurt to the depths of my soul.

 

 

 

 

 

That was Balefire they used to kill that fade. 

And mopping, I know, all I am putting it down to is Egwene being bored lol, 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Samt]

7 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I mean Elayne is pregnant at the end of the books, we know Avi is going to have 4 children by Rand, we never see anything about Min. Rafe has already confirmed that the poly aspect of the relationship will play a big big part in the show, and that it is going to be more polyamory then polygamy which suggests he will explore the relationships between the women as well as between them and Rand. 

What polyamory aspect? Sister wives means that the relationship between the wives is that of sisters. This is made pretty clear through the whole rebirth ceremony that Elayne and Aviendha go through.  Min is quite embarrassed by being emotionally present through the bond when Elayne gets it on with Rand.  She definitely wasn’t up for being physically present, let alone participating.  Aviendha is able to shield the bond, so she just avoids it that way.  

Edited September 12, 2023 by Samt

[Guire]

29 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Sorry got to disagree here, there is always a reason for people acting that way, why are they self centred, why do they need to have power and control, simply saying that self centred evil people find watch other and work together is simplistic. The Forsaken where all intelligent great people in there age, and age full of decadence and a complete lack of oversight or control, an age where Channellers put themselves above all others. Some of the Foresaken turned because they where about to be caught for breaking laws, but most of them the turn was subtle, taking a long period of time, but we never see that, and thats ok the foresaken are a constant but Taim, why did he turn what was his weakness and what in his background made him susceptible. Villains always have a deeper reason, no baby is born inherently evil, things happen in a persons life to send them down a path. 

I am not being simplistic or saying people are evil because they are evil or bad.  I am saying the degree to which people are self centered has an overwhelmingly strong effect on the harm they can cause which is perceived as evil.  I think a fault of some modern thought is to always look for an understandable reason for people to do bad action.  Trying to understand the reasons then sort of creates an excuse for the action.  I think evil is sort of a  simple word to describe a very complex system of human action and reaction.  Also many sort of universal truths are masked behind systems of religion,culture, and ethical thought because we cant deal with the harsh coldness of reality.  I just think when you dig down into people who have done large scale horrific acts the common denominator is they are all selfish pricks irregardless of background or life experience.

[Scarloc99]

14 minutes ago, Samt said:

What polyamory aspect? Sister wives means that the relationship between the wives is that of sisters. This is made pretty clear through the whole rebirth ceremony that Elayne and Aviendha go through.  Min is quite embarrassed by being emotionally present through the bond when Elayne gets it on with Rand.  She definitely wasn’t up for being physically present, let alone participating.  Aviendha is able to shield the bond, so she just avoids it that way.  

I am just repeating what Rafe said, he said it would be less Polygamy where Rand has 3 women, and more a polyamory relationship which has been taken to mean there will be strong emotions shown between at least Avi and Elayne we will have to wait and see how this changes in the TV show in reality but my guess is that given what we have seen we might see a bit more intimacy between them in a different way, 

[SinisterDeath]

11 minutes ago, Samt said:

What polyamory aspect?

Polyamory doesn't mean everyone is present all the time when things get spicy, nor does it mean that everyone has a relationship with everyone else.
E.g. Elayne & Aviendha can have a closer relationship with each other, but individually have a relationship with Rand, and Min can have her own independent relationship with Rand.

Even in the books, Rand isn't in a Polygamous relationship because in all technicality he doesn't get married to Elyane, Min and Aviendha.

[Guire]

Just now, Scarloc99 said:

I am just repeating what Rafe said, he said it would be less Polygamy where Rand has 3 women, and more a polyamory relationship which has been taken to mean there will be strong emotions shown between at least Avi and Elayne we will have to wait and see how this changes in the TV show in reality but my guess is that given what we have seen we might see a bit more intimacy between them in a different way, 

Agree 100 %.  I think Avi and Elayne will have an intimate physical relationship independent or coexisting with Rand relationship.  I think Min may be sort of 1 to 1 relationship with Rand outside of his traingle with other 2.  Btw I have never seen these kind of complex poly relationships do well in long run in real world.  I think the royal harem polygamy relationship from book actually has a better chance at working irl.  Its like 3 simple coexisting relationships running parallel and can have decently defined rules.  

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, Guire said:

Btw I have never seen these kind of complex poly relationships do well in long run in real world.  I think the royal harem polygamy relationship from book actually has a better chance at working irl.

There's a quote from Mat in the book's that's relevant here...

Quote

"One pretty woman means fun at the dance. Two pretty women means trouble in the house. Three pretty women means run for the hills."

The "royal" only works because of the power dynamic involved.

Remove any type of power or legal dynamics, and things get a lot more messy... which is precisely what happens in the less formal versions of those same types of relationships...

[Elder_Haman]

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

The show clumsily tells us that despite it making no sense.

It makes absolute sense. Anvaere told you exactly what happened. The fact that you don't like the explanation doesn't mean the explanation is invalid. 

[DigificWriter]

 

33 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Polyamory doesn't mean everyone is present all the time when things get spicy, nor does it mean that everyone has a relationship with everyone else.

 

Exactly.

 

Rand having an intimate and consensual physical relationship - one that is accepted and agreed to by all parties - with more than one of the "three beautiful women" that Min told him about means that he is engaging in Polyamory regardless of whether or not said "three beautiful women" have intimate physical relationships with anyone other than him either within the confines of the overall relationship dynamic they share with him or outside of it.

 

[notpropaganda73]

I'll have another post on the episode overall but look, I know that S1 is done and we've all discussed it to death, and I suppose we will continue discussing it, but the very short time spent with Perrin and Elyas in this episode just made me so so sad that we had the absolutely stupid, ineffective "who is the dragon" so-called "mystery" in S1. It was a waste of everyones time, left characters behind in terms of development because they had to remain a candidate for the Dragon (Perrin, Egwene, Mat), and didn't even work as many of the non-book fans of the show that I watch reviews from had discounted those three as candidates very early on. 

 

The Perrin/Elyas scene also showed us that the creators of this show are very much capable of communicating lore from the books in a short, effective way while making changes/adapting for a visual medium. It showed that they understand what fans love from the books (Hopper! What a good boy!) and while they have made changes to Perrin's story, that they understand this fundamental part of his character and his fears around what's happening to him. Give us more of this sort of thing for the EF5 PLEASE

 

 

[Samt]

50 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Polyamory doesn't mean everyone is present all the time when things get spicy, nor does it mean that everyone has a relationship with everyone else.
E.g. Elayne & Aviendha can have a closer relationship with each other, but individually have a relationship with Rand, and Min can have her own independent relationship with Rand.
 

I assumed that the distinction being made between "polygamy" and "polyamory" was that in polyamory the girls are physically intimate with each other (either with Rand there or without).  The books don't hint that such a thing ever happens and give every indication that the relationship between Aviendha, Elayne, and Min is that of sisters or close friends (less close in Min's case).  

 

It's unfortunate that the show seems to be leaning into making everything more sexual.  In the books, it's the greens that are weird for having sex with their warders.  Moraine and Lan's platonic partnership is the norm.  Aes Sedai lesbianism is also rare and seen as inappropriate for full sisters.  Beyond what it does to the characters, it's also unrealistic that an agrarian, pre-industrial society would have such promiscuity since pregnancy and venereal diseases are still a problem.  

 

50 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Even in the books, Rand isn't in a Polygamous relationship because in all technicality he doesn't get married to Elyane, Min and Aviendha.

 

Depends on how you feel about deleted scenes.  

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

9 minutes ago, Samt said:

Aes Sedai lesbianism is also rare and seen as inappropriate for full sisters.  Beyond what it does to the characters, it's also unrealistic that an agrarian, pre-industrial society would have such promiscuity since pregnancy and venereal diseases are still a problem.

I could be mixing up my fantasy series, but I think WoT mentions a herb for that.
Ahh here it is.. Heartleaf.
https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Heartleaf

And while WoT is pre-industrial, It's setting isn't Medieval, it's closer to Renaissance... and people got freaky during that time period.

 

  

9 minutes ago, Samt said:

Depends on how you feel about deleted scenes.  

I must have missed that one?

[notpropaganda73]

On the episode, I really enjoyed parts of it but I really cannot stand the Lan story at the moment. It's a bit baffling to me, I don't connect to it at all as I don't understand Moiraine's behaviour, I don't understand what has happened to her in relation to the shielding/stilling, I don't understand what has happened or not happened to the bond, none of it chimes with what I know of either character even just from S1. I know Moiraine in the books was cold and calculating but the treatment of Lan just feels way too far and illogical from her. There is too much not being communicated to the audience imo, whether that be Moiraine upset on her own, a private conversation with Alanna, Verin, Lan confiding something else to one of the other Warders about the search for the Dragon, literally anything. I wonder if we are suffering from not having the Amyrlin around as it was set up as a relationship that Moiraine opens up a lot more in. 

 

Lan is obviously hugely different from the books and I don't really mind that, but I do feel like we haven't had any indicator of him being a great Warder or protector. Literally one or two scenes in S1 which displayed how skilled a swordsman he is would have been a great contrast with him in S2 imo. But again, that's old ground I suppose. I know the creators will want this to be an arc where we see Lan grow into a great leader and warrior again, but it really feels like he has an awful long way to go for that and there is limited time. 

 

Natasha O'Keeffe is absolutely sensational and I think is doing great work with, imo, some uneven/ham fisted writing. I like the fact she can heal like that, it's a good way to try and get the horror of the Forsaken across on television. I just hope there's a realisation amongst our heroes that this is only due to a link with the DO and not because they are superhuman monsters or something. But the saa in her eyes was a really nice touch.

 

Josha I feel is still growing into the role of Rand, and I think it's difficult for him as so much of his struggle is internal. I really hope we get flickerflickerflicker, do we know if this is confirmed to be in this season? 

 

I love Ishamael as well, a perfect villain in my opinion. And Liandrin is so much better in the show than the books. I am more than ok with this adaptation because Kate Fleetwood is a brilliant actress. We should remember that we will not see as many Forsaken in the show as the books - there is room for more "modern day" Forsaken, (though I do agree that I'm not so sure Liandrin is pure evil in this iteration - they really nearly had me that they had changed her for the show with that talk with Nynaeve at the arches). But we have much more room for this sort of character to be a more significant antagonist for longer than they ever were in the books.

 

The addition of Anvaere as well is a plot thread I really really like. So there's plenty I'm enjoying this season, I just feel there has been a lot of wasted time up to this point and still some very significant characters suffering from lack of development. My girlfriend is a non-reader and is really really struggling to keep up with who is who at the minute. 

[DaddyFinn]

11 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I could be mixing up my fantasy series, but I think WoT mentions a herb for that.
Ahh here it is.. Heartleaf.
https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Heartleaf

IIRC there's also a weave for birth control

[Cipher]

6 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Could the party crash scene be partially explained by Lanfear using some form of compulsion or mind control to manufacture and manipulate the people’s acceptance of their presence with the OP somehow? Or is that too much of a stretch?

I don’t think the audience should invent a narrative to make stupid story telling more plausible.

[king of nowhere]

17 minutes ago, Samt said:

 it's also unrealistic that an agrarian, pre-industrial society would have such promiscuity since pregnancy and venereal diseases are still a problem. 

true for the general population, but aes sedai can just get healed. I'd think they could be more promiscuous than many.

also, zigzagged in the real world. sure, std were a strong incentive on monogamy - and while I am unable to find confirmations, I would bet that most religions frowning on illicit sex and prostitution stemmed from seeing those disease as divine punishments.

on the other hand, there were plenty of ancient civilizations - agrarian, preindustrial - that were very promiscuous, especially the ruling classes. romans and greeks had sex slaves and widespread same-sex relationships outside of marriage. though that sexual freedom was much lower for women, because of pregnancies.

even in the middle ages europe was a lot less bigoted than it's generally known, with the church pushing for more restrictions on sexuality gradually in the late middle age.

in fact,

12 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I could be mixing up my fantasy series, but I think WoT mentions a herb for that.
Ahh here it is.. Heartleaf.
https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Heartleaf

And while WoT is pre-industrial, It's setting isn't Medieval, it's closer to Renaissance... and people got freaky during that time period.

the most sexually repressive time was renaissance and victorian ages.

those were the times when you could get burned at stake for homosexuality - in earlier times nobody cared much as long as it wasn't too obvious.

again, a few nobles would stand out, but they were more exceptions.

 

all in all, I think we can't take history to say what is or isn't realistic. in fact, history shows us a lot of different examples that can be used to justify pretty much anything

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Cipher said:

I don’t think the audience should invent a narrative to make stupid story telling more plausible.

What part of that is stupid? Does the weave for compulsion not exist? Or does it only exist after book 4?

 

Why couldn't it be possible that the show would repeat Rand's channeling Flashbacks from Season 1, in Season 2 by showing how Lanfear manipulated those around Rand with the OP?

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

the most sexually repressive time was renaissance and victorian ages.

100% true, and repression also has the adverse effect of causing people to do the very thing they say they admonish in public... People were getting quite freaky behind closed doors.
Prostitution was rampant... at least where it wasn't outlawed. Nobility were some of the worst hypocritical offenders.

As for things like heartleaf. Greeks or Romans were said to have had something similar, but it was supposedly soo popular it became extinct. 

 

Quote

all in all, I think we can't take history to say what is or isn't realistic. in fact, history shows us a lot of different examples that can be used to justify pretty much anything

Exactly. This is a fantasy series. Not a historical documentary. 😉 

[Storeebooq]

15 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

I believe by “neutered” he probably wasn’t referring to seeing a more emotional Lan (I think all of us can agree that Ageless/Stoic Aes Sedai & Warders weren’t going to “work” for Tv); I think he was probably referring to the fact that Tv Lan seems pretty incompetent as a Warder so far because: 

 

A) he can’t cover up Moiraine’s “tell” and so was easily followed. 
B) he’s pretty much only “lost” in fights 

C) Moiraine has directly said “you’ve failed me” and so “released” his bond 

D) now he’s pouty and doesn’t know what to do

 

None of which happened in the books. None of which makes Lan look like a guy who walks into the Blight alone with a just a sword. 
None of which makes us believe that Lan is THE most BA Warder of the books. 
None of which sets us up to believe that Lan can take on the best swordsman in history and “tie”. 
 

Now this whole Moiraine rudeness and pushing Lan away, and Lan allowing it. If the payoff is 

  Hide contents

Moiraine knew she was going to die fighting Lanfear because Min told her; and we see it this season - they accelerate that timeline

Then I will have mad respect for Rafe and the writers and actually like this plot line. 
 

But. If they’re doing this crap to just keep Moiraine central and make up a story for her and they don’t know what to do with Lan while they keep making up stuff for Moiraine. Then, they’ve just ruined their adaptation, and I predict (sadly) they won’t make it to 8 seasons, because they are waaay overestimating Pike’s pull if that’s the case. IMO 

If just talking about him as a badass warder, I agree, there's not been as many setups for that. I like the emotional development, but also I've missed the badass moments. Though, tbh despite him and Mo nearly dying, the whole single man taking on several Fades and not immediately dying was pretty badass. 

 

I think they diminished his skills for too many convenient plot devices in Season 1. They should have really made his fighting and tracking skills shine more, rather than lag behind. The whole "tell" thing at the end was also pretty weak.  Lan had been with Mo for nearly 20 years, if she had a tell he would have already known it. 

 

So yeah, I wish they would have hyped up his skills alongside his emotional development. Then we would have had the whole package. 

[Samt]

40 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I must have missed that one?

 

 

Around minute 42, they say that a deleted bridal wreath scene exists that Brandon considers as still having happened off page that just didn't fit into the final cut for tone reasons.  

 

Also, that's not the pronunciation that I had for Talmanes in my head (I pronounced it with two syllables like a horse with tall hair).  

[Storeebooq]

1 hour ago, Guire said:

Agree 100 %.  I think Avi and Elayne will have an intimate physical relationship independent or coexisting with Rand relationship.  I think Min may be sort of 1 to 1 relationship with Rand outside of his traingle with other 2.  Btw I have never seen these kind of complex poly relationships do well in long run in real world.  I think the royal harem polygamy relationship from book actually has a better chance at working irl.  Its like 3 simple coexisting relationships running parallel and can have decently defined rules.  

As someone in a polyamorous relationship that actually follows more along the lines of what was talked about (multiple folks, different forms of relationships, some platonic some romantic, and all closely connected and working together for mutual love & support with out set hierarchies), I could see it work in the show if Rafe and writers really know what they are doing. 

 

RJ's was kind of comical and focused mostly on Rand. Everything ultimately revolved around him. There was some development of the relationships between the girls, but it was always grounded in them just all trying to get a piece of the Dragon's heart. In a polyamorous relationship, the "center" often changes throughout the course of time. I.e., the "golden" threads of love would have been felt between them all, not just spiraling out from Rand. =] 

 

I am thinking that what Rafe refers to is that the emotional depth that will be shared between the girls will be deeper, more intimate, and realistic. Probably platonic too, but if there's sexual relationships added too that will be interesting (and will probably make some book readers complain). Rand will hopefully not always be the center and reason they form intimate relationships. 

[SinisterDeath]

24 minutes ago, Samt said:

 

 

Around minute 42, they say that a deleted bridal wreath scene exists that Brandon considers as still having happened off page that just didn't fit into the final cut for tone reasons.  

 

Also, that's not the pronunciation that I had for Talmanes in my head (I pronounced it with two syllables like a horse with tall hair).  

Ah that's why. I never sat down and watched that entire thing.

[Cipher]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

What part of that is stupid? Does the weave for compulsion not exist? Or does it only exist after book 4?

 

Why couldn't it be possible that the show would repeat Rand's channeling Flashbacks from Season 1, in Season 2 by showing how Lanfear manipulated those around Rand with the OP?

No indicator on screen that Lanfear did anything of the sort. Sure that might be to keep us in the dark of who she is, but as it is a party crashing dude in a nice coat who nobody knows is gonna be the talk of the town?  Ok if you buy horse dung.  In the show Suits a character who faked graduating from Harvard went to a Harvard alum party and some people were like “who the hell is this? We don’t know you.”  Way better writing.

[SinisterDeath]

6 minutes ago, Cipher said:

No indicator on screen that Lanfear did anything of the sort.

Season 1, there was no on screen indicator that Rand channeled in the Ways, until the flashback scene where we saw that he in fact did.

If everyone's adamant that the writers are lazy and crappy. Why wouldn't they recycle a flashback use of the power?

They've already recycled fake out deaths.