Why not follow the books more closely?

[DigificWriter]

^ We've already had it confirmed by the costume designer that the pacifiers are gags and not just mouth coverings.

 

She also specifically called them pacifiers and expressly stated that she added them to the damane's wardrobe as a visual demonstration of dehumanization.

[Guire]

12 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

^ We've already had it confirmed by the costume designer that the pacifiers are gags and not just mouth coverings.

 

She also specifically called them pacifiers and expressly stated that she added them to the damane's wardrobe as a visual demonstration of dehumanization.

I am not a big fan of costuming for show so I havent watched or read much about it.  Thank you for info.  

[SBroc]

I personally can get past all of the changes if the relationships between the 5 "E. Fielders"  felt like they were more developed.  The bonds between them all really seemed to come into play in the books.  They could count on each other when they really needed to trust someone and be accepted for who they were.  Rand and Mat and their trip to the Aiel.  Rand and Nyn working the power together.  Eg. and Nyn fighting basically every sister and supporting each other. 

 

I am hopeful this can all be changed in season 2.  Also not sure how much switching the actor playing Mat changed things. And the lack of more episodes. 

 

My husband (who has not read the books) watched with me and didn't understand why he should care about any of the 5 characters cause they didn't seem developed but he loved the warder funeral scene/episode because it felt like the relationships were developed more with Lan and Moraine

[Elglin]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I think this is the wrong way to think about damane. They're not valued pets or tools (IMO); they're slaves treated as less-than-human.

RJ to the rescue!

"Renna patted her on the head as she would a dog", "a certain good will for a dog in training", "Damane are like furniture, or tools, always there ready to be used", "Damane are too valuable to be killed out of hand", "I do not mean to train this damane only to have her thrown away", "Her hand stroked Egwene's hair, a mistress soothing her dog".

I would suggest that Renna as of TGH is a pretty good authority on damane.

[DigificWriter]

21 minutes ago, Elglin said:

RJ to the rescue!

"Renna patted her on the head as she would a dog", "a certain good will for a dog in training", "Damane are like furniture, or tools, always there ready to be used", "Damane are too valuable to be killed out of hand", "I do not mean to train this damane only to have her thrown away", "Her hand stroked Egwene's hair, a mistress soothing her dog".

I would suggest that Renna as of TGH is a pretty good authority on damane.

 

Hmm.

 

Thanks for that.

 

The fact that the show's costume designer added pacifier gags as a visual dehumanization aid does suggest that the damane are being treated more like slaves than pets/tools in this " turning of the Wheel", though.

[Durinax]

I have softened a bit on this subject, even appreciating some of the changes. Things like aging up a bit were good decisions. Others left me puzzled, like changing waygates, changing Rands' scenes to Nynaeve, Nynaeve overall really.

 

The changes they made I found took away from things rather than added.  Think they could of kept it more true to the books.

[Elder_Haman]

On 8/15/2023 at 3:03 PM, DigificWriter said:

The fact that the show's costume designer added pacifier gags as a visual dehumanization aid does suggest that the damane are being treated more like slaves than pets/tools in this " turning of the Wheel", though.

Dangerous pets are often muzzled. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

On 8/15/2023 at 11:03 PM, DigificWriter said:

The fact that the show's costume designer added pacifier gags as a visual dehumanization aid does suggest that the damane are being treated more like slaves than pets/tools in this " turning of the Wheel", though.

Dangerous pets are often muzzled. 

Except in the books people outside Shara and Seanchan have no concept of slavery at all - the closest they come is gai'shain and the information that after the Aiel war any Cairheinin trying to cross the waste are "sold as animals in Shara".   The information from the Egwene point of view that she equates Rena's treatment as that of an owner for a dog is because it is how she thinks of it as a character who does not have any concept that one human can own another.   

 

This is not a problem for 21st century humans - as little as 160 years ago humans were still being openly  and legally bought and sold and we have numerous fictional and documentary sources so that any reasonably educated adult is aware of this fact.   We see such treatment an think of it as 1) ethically unacceptable and 2) how an owner treats a slave.

[Samt]

I’m not sure I really get the symbolic difference between a leash and a muzzle. Both are things you put on a dog and are dehumanizing.  My main objection to the change is that it feels like a meaningless change that the showrunners are making to prove to the book fans that they can do whatever they want and they don’t care what fans think.  
 

A man tells a woman that he loves her deeply and that he just wants her to cut and dye her hair, lose 20 lbs, change her clothing and makeup style, quit her job, learn to cook, convert to his religion, adopt his political views, and indulge his weird sexual fetishes. Rafe saying he loves Wheel of Time has the same energy.

[Guire]

31 minutes ago, Samt said:

I’m not sure I really get the symbolic difference between a leash and a muzzle. Both are things you put on a dog and are dehumanizing.  My main objection to the change is that it feels like a meaningless change that the showrunners are making to prove to the book fans that they can do whatever they want and they don’t care what fans think.  
 

A man tells a woman that he loves her deeply and that he just wants her to cut and dye her hair, lose 20 lbs, change her clothing and makeup style, quit her job, learn to cook, convert to his religion, adopt his political views, and indulge his weird sexual fetishes. Rafe saying he loves Wheel of Time has the same energy.

Rough...but fair.  Definately win hot take of day.  I see it as Rafe and creatives wanting to clumsily make a point about silencing women.  From an activest point of view I perceive that woman are powerful but all of them are also victims regardless of status.  The clunkyness of fitting a message into an existing IP.  The choir will nod knowingly while many of us will have the WTF face.

[Skipp]

53 minutes ago, Samt said:

I’m not sure I really get the symbolic difference between a leash and a muzzle. Both are things you put on a dog and are dehumanizing.  My main objection to the change is that it feels like a meaningless change that the showrunners are making to prove to the book fans that they can do whatever they want and they don’t care what fans think.  
 

A man tells a woman that he loves her deeply and that he just wants her to cut and dye her hair, lose 20 lbs, change her clothing and makeup style, quit her job, learn to cook, convert to his religion, adopt his political views, and indulge his weird sexual fetishes. Rafe saying he loves Wheel of Time has the same energy.

You could read into it that way, it is certainly a possibility but I do believe that safety and practicality are the more likely reasons as to why we don't have a leash A'dam.

[Samt]

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

You could read into it that way, it is certainly a possibility but I do believe that safety and practicality are the more likely reasons as to why we don't have a leash A'dam.

I’ve heard that, but it seems to just be a justification made up after the fact. What’s so unsafe or impractical about a leash? It’s not like you have to make it strong or restrictive.  Set it up so it will break away with a little bit of force.

And that’s if you really see it as a problem in the first place. You have people doing acrobatics, choreographed fights, stunts, etc.  But a leash is where you draw the line and can no longer be safe?  If you can’t trust people to just be professionals and not hurt each other, you have bigger problems.

[DigificWriter]

Taking visual artistic license - which is what the new costume designer's addition of pacifier gags is - doesn't constitute a change from the source material.

 

If it did, virtually any Theatrical staging or revival of any pre-existing work or any remake of a pre-existing film or television series in history that didn't faithfully recreate the costuming of the original production - or replicate the original choreography thereof - would be guilty of doing so.

[Samt]

47 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Taking visual artistic license - which is what the new costume designer's addition of pacifier gags is - doesn't constitute a change from the source material.

 

If it did, virtually any Theatrical staging or revival of any pre-existing work or any remake of a pre-existing film or television series in history that didn't faithfully recreate the costuming of the original production - or replicate the original choreography thereof - would be guilty of doing so.

The Motte and Bailey style gaslighting is top notch.  It’s not a change. But also it’s a good change.  
 

Deliberately and definitively contradicting the description of a piece of equipment constitutes a change. As I said, it’s not a big change and the change itself doesn’t bother me. It’s the pervasive attitude of believing that the source material needs to be improved and corrected that chafes. Rafe is on the record that he wants to change the show to more closely align with his political and moral values.  As the saying goes, when someone tells you who he is, believe him.

[DigificWriter]

I like the pacifier gags because of what they mean symbolically and because they look cool, but I've never, at least consciously, referred to their addition as being a change from the source material.

 

As to the latter point re: Rafe, my only response is "So what"; all creators put their own views into a creative work, be said work an original story or an adaptation of a pre-existing work.

 

People who talk about " not making stories political" or not having stories "push an agenda" are fooling themselves into the false notion that storytelling is or has ever been in any way non-political or agenda-free.

[Guire]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

I like the pacifier gags because of what they mean symbolically and because they look cool, but I've never, at least consciously, referred to their addition as being a change from the source material.

 

As to the latter point re: Rafe, my only response is "So what"; all creators put their own views into a creative work, be said work an original story or an adaptation of a pre-existing work.

 

People who talk about " not making stories political" or not having stories "push an agenda" are fooling themselves into the false notion that storytelling is or has ever been in any way non-political or agenda-free.

I agree everything is political.  Rafes political is different than Jordans political.  In an adaptation with lots of externalities making it complicated, I think this change in voice makes it even harder to make a truly great show.  I dont doubt Rafes talent, I think he has just bitten off more than  can be well chewed.  

[DojoToad]

32 minutes ago, Guire said:

I agree everything is political.  Rafes political is different than Jordans political.  In an adaptation with lots of externalities making it complicated, I think this change in voice makes it even harder to make a truly great show.  I dont doubt Rafes talent, I think he has just bitten off more than  can be well chewed.  

Politics and changes aside - I very much doubt Rafe's abilities.  S2 will tell...

[Guire]

Just now, DojoToad said:

Politics and changes aside - I very much doubt Rafe's abilities.  S2 will tell...

I am comparing it to other recent large IPs that set out with similar social messaging.  Most of those have been total crap compared to WoT.  I have begrudgingly come to that opinion.  The show at least had some externalities that interfered.  I am giving season 2 every chance to redeem itself.  If it doesnt then I wont feel bad about crapping all over it and then quietly giving up on series and leaving fan series alone.

[DojoToad]

14 minutes ago, Guire said:

I am comparing it to other recent large IPs that set out with similar social messaging.  Most of those have been total crap compared to WoT.  I have begrudgingly come to that opinion.  The show at least had some externalities that interfered.  I am giving season 2 every chance to redeem itself.  If it doesnt then I wont feel bad about crapping all over it and then quietly giving up on series and leaving fan series alone.

If S2 turns into a good show (for me) then I will go back and watch what I consider a subpar S1 and enjoy the rest of the show going forward.  Fingers crossed...

[Samt]

On 8/15/2023 at 12:21 PM, Guire said:

 It always threw me that an 18yo such as Rand can get so much action out in the world, and Mat, a girl on his knee at every inn. 

Ta'veren means that they are incredibly charismatic and people naturally want to follow them.  They are also quite good looking from what we can gather from their descriptions.  At a minimum, Rand is freakishly tall, which never hurt.  

[Guire]

24 minutes ago, Samt said:

Ta'veren means that they are incredibly charismatic and people naturally want to follow them.  They are also quite good looking from what we can gather from their descriptions.  At a minimum, Rand is freakishly tall, which never hurt.  

I was trying to pull a quote out of Sir Charrids post above and ended up pasting it instead.  When I was a 19 year old soldier traveling the world finding a friendly companion was never a problem.  My 6'6" tall blonde buddy was fighting woman off everywhere we went.  That part of story and other parts people found unbelievable made perfect sense to my soldier self.  The lack of communication as a driver for conflict especially was something I have seen people criticize when that is actually very common in military history. Even today the number one cause of medical malpractice is miscommunication.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Guire said:

Even today the number one cause of medical malpractice is miscommunication.

Shit, more like non-communication... and most of it's not even considered malpractice...

Doctors don't listen to patients.
A staggering number of women routinely go 10+ years before getting diagnosed with endometriosis. Some only get a diagnosis after getting a hysterectomy and barely an acknowledgement from their doctors that their prior symptoms were even real.

That's just one example of many... You could say I've navigated the health-care system enough to have a bit of a beef with the way things are done. lol

 

1 hour ago, Guire said:

The lack of communication as a driver for conflict especially was something I have seen people criticize when that is actually very common in military history.

I'd say it goes beyond just military history. Honestly, and I've said it before... COVID is a great example from recent history... of a shared experience that all of us reading this lived through. Regardless of our politics, it illustrates how no one can agree what's going on, how to deal with it, or what we should do about it, who to believe, etc.

It's unfortunate that COVID came out during season 1, but it's also fortunate for the show that COVID happened, because they can really dial up the miscommunication in the show to the levels in the book and people will probably go, "Yeah, that' sounds about right".

[Scarloc99]

On 8/15/2023 at 10:06 PM, SBroc said:

I personally can get past all of the changes if the relationships between the 5 "E. Fielders"  felt like they were more developed.  The bonds between them all really seemed to come into play in the books.  They could count on each other when they really needed to trust someone and be accepted for who they were.  Rand and Mat and their trip to the Aiel.  Rand and Nyn working the power together.  Eg. and Nyn fighting basically every sister and supporting each other. 

 

I am hopeful this can all be changed in season 2.  Also not sure how much switching the actor playing Mat changed things. And the lack of more episodes. 

 

My husband (who has not read the books) watched with me and didn't understand why he should care about any of the 5 characters cause they didn't seem developed but he loved the warder funeral scene/episode because it felt like the relationships were developed more with Lan and Moraine

You are talking about relationships we see later on in the series. Nothing was wrong with how the relationships were portrayed in season 1, other than the pseudo love triangle. They matched the books fairly closely, Egwene and Perrin travelled together, Mat was under the effect of the knife, Nyn and Morraine etc. not sure what for you was different from book 1, other then like I say the love triangle. 
 

Really the relationships you talk about don’t really happen in the books until book 4. Books 1,2 and 3 I like to call the backpacking guide to Randland, they stories of all 3 are basically the characters going from point A to point B chasing after something. There is some but not loads of character growth and the relationships start forming, RJ starts to fond mats voice especially in book 3. In fact I have long felt that in books 1-3 RJ really had no idea how he wanted to write his story or the voices he wanted his characters to have. 

[DigificWriter]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Nothing was wrong with how the relationships were portrayed in season 1, other than the pseudo love triangle

 

The supposed love triangle referenced here never actually existed. Nynaeve's conclusion was flat-out baseless and wrong, but a lot of the WoT fandom - both book readers and show-only viewers alike - somehow missed that key detail and took her outburst as gospel truth.

[Kaleb]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

The supposed love triangle referenced here never actually existed. Nynaeve's conclusion was flat-out baseless and wrong, but a lot of the WoT fandom - both book readers and show-only viewers alike - somehow missed that key detail and took her outburst as gospel truth.

100% agreed. It's a perfect illustration of how book Nynaeve vented her own frustrations by projecting them on to the people around her. It's a hallmark of her character and they did it really well. It was also a great way to show how Rand was looking for and taking an opportunity to put a wedge between him and his friends, just like he was doing at the beginning of The Great Hunt when he realized he was the Dragon Reborn. I love that scene so much as it shows how deeply the writers and actors understand the characters.

 

I think it's easy for book readers to stay in the written character's POV when reading and not consider how those actions might look from other characters' POV. Sometimes RJ spells it out, but lots of times we don't get an obvious counterweight to the narrative voice's self-interest.

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Kaleb