Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Kudzu]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

I’m beginning to think Min will be the impetus for heading to Fal Dara, not the Eye. 

 

So you think she'll be at the White Tower already? That would be the most logical place.

 

Thinking on Min and the rumour (really getting nit picky now lol). The problem is with the first oath.

 

"There are rumours of 4 ta'veren". If Moiraine has the information directly from Min, or even from Min via an eyes and ears contact, then that statement isn't true. The same would apply if for example a ta'veren seeing Aes Sedai had been through. For "rumours" to be true the information has to be circulating somewhere.

 

Like I said, really nit picky, but it does annoy me. There are so many other ways to phrase that to make it more believable. I tell you what if they resolve it nicely, it will be a very positive indication of attention to detail. 

[Beidomon]

13 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

 

So you think she'll be at the White Tower already? That would be the most logical place.

 

Thinking on Min and the rumour (really getting nit picky now lol). The problem is with the first oath.

 

"There are rumours of 4 ta'veren". If Moiraine has the information directly from Min, or even from Min via an eyes and ears contact, then that statement isn't true. The same would apply if for example a ta'veren seeing Aes Sedai had been through. For "rumours" to be true the information has to be circulating somewhere.

 

Like I said, really nit picky, but it does annoy me. There are so many other ways to phrase that to make it more believable. I tell you what if they resolve it nicely, it will be a very positive indication of attention to detail. 

But you can fix anything with “maybe Moiraine misheard/misunderstood”. So problem solved. 

[Yojimbo]

1 minute ago, Beidomon said:

But you can fix anything with “maybe Moiraine misheard/misunderstood”. So problem solved. 

Yeah, cuz that's such a Mo thing to do. 

/s

[Theseus78]

53 minutes ago, Tim said:

Yes, I feel the same way - it’s not that I want to claim that the show has not made mistakes, but rather that is is more enjoyable to speculate on how/why something might not be a mistake. 
 

Dismissing something as an error or immediately concluding that the writers just didn’t have regard to something may well be correct, but it’s also by definition the end of the thought process - though to be clear I am not suggesting people ought not draw those conclusions! Just explaining why I tend not to unless there’s no other reasonable option.

A lot of the "but that may change this other thing" response I had was alleviated by this:

They know, they care, they are trying to figure out if changes will change the story arc and the character cores.  We may disagree with their choices, but they're not arbitrary. 

[Harad the White]

5 minutes ago, Theseus78 said:

We may disagree with their choices, but they're not arbitrary

There goes my theory of a dart board with Kill, Marry, Kiss.

[Elder_Haman]

48 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

 

So you think she'll be at the White Tower already? That would be the most logical place.

 

Thinking on Min and the rumour (really getting nit picky now lol). The problem is with the first oath.

 

"There are rumours of 4 ta'veren". If Moiraine has the information directly from Min, or even from Min via an eyes and ears contact, then that statement isn't true. The same would apply if for example a ta'veren seeing Aes Sedai had been through. For "rumours" to be true the information has to be circulating somewhere.

 

Like I said, really nit picky, but it does annoy me. There are so many other ways to phrase that to make it more believable. I tell you what if they resolve it nicely, it will be a very positive indication of attention to detail. 

No. I’m thinking Min provided the rumors to someone in the Blue network. I’m also thinking Moiraine has not met Min yet and hasn’t spoken to her directly, hence they are only rumors at this point. 
 

Then, owing to her uncertainty about the Dragon, she decides to take the EF5 to Fal Dara to meet Min and get a direct answer. Perhaps with Siuan providing additional information. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[flinn]

 Any way you look at it, the Logain reaction was poorly done. Instead of clarifying anything it just caused more confusion.

[ArrylT]

55 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I get it.  But as a guy who has written 2 books it just comes off as sloppy.

 

Congratulations!

[Tim]

15 minutes ago, Theseus78 said:

A lot of the "but that may change this other thing" response I had was alleviated by this:

They know, they care, they are trying to figure out if changes will change the story arc and the character cores.  We may disagree with their choices, but they're not arbitrary. 

 

Yep. I've seen suggestions that "most people working on the show probably haven't read the books", and while I think that is probably literally correct and I also doubt the entire writing team has read the books, I suspect that most of them have read at least the first few, and that on any given episode there would be at least some people writing or overseeing the script (including Rafe obviously) who have a sense of how major changes would impact the plot.

 

The role of Sarah isn't to be the only person in the room with a good understanding of the books' overall plot, but to be the person in the room who reliably remembers all the tiny details and how they fit together, which Jordan's microscopic-encyclopaedic approach to plotting has made considerably more difficult than it would be for almost any other series of books (the archetypal example for me is the farmer who briefly appears in TEOTW and then pops up again at the beginning of The Gathering Storm - Jordan loved little easter eggs like this).

 

Where things can get more subtle is at the directing/acting stage. I imagine that many of the episode directors may not have read the books and are relying on the scripts - i.e. the same situation as probably most of the actors. This then can leave open space for smaller changes that are noticeable to book fans but the makers may not have even realised would constitute deviations: the way that an aes sedai gestures, how characters physically relate to one another, a small bit of seemingly successful ad-libbed dialogue etc. 

The work done to leave open that Moiraine and Lan are sleeping together might be a good example of this: the writers might have had in mind one particular implication (e.g. that Nynaeve is worried they might be sleeping together but what is shown of their interactions tends to suggest otherwise) but in the hands of the directors and actors this might end up slightly different (e.g. more or less clear that this is not the case).

[Theseus78]

17 minutes ago, flinn said:

 Any way you look at it, the Logain reaction was poorly done. Instead of clarifying anything it just caused more confusion.

I think it was meant to cause 'buzz' and for people to talk about what it means, etc. Not sure it did that well

[Agitel]

Just now, Theseus78 said:

I think it was meant to cause 'buzz' and for people to talk about what it means, etc. Not sure it did that well

 

I don't know about Logain's reaction, but we're talking about the last two minutes of an episode and so many of our questions are cliffhanger questions that may be addressed in the next one. At least some of them.

[themann1086]

5 minutes ago, Tim said:

Yep. I've seen suggestions that "most people working on the show probably haven't read the books", and while I think that is probably literally correct and I also doubt the entire writing team has read the books, I suspect that most of them have read at least the first few, and that on any given episode there would be at least some people writing or overseeing the script (including Rafe obviously) who have a sense of how major changes would impact the plot.

Hopefully he required everyone to read Isam's summaries of the first 10 books ?

[Kudzu]

21 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

No. I’m thinking Min provided the rumors to someone in the Blue network. I’m also thinking Moiraine has not met Min yet and hasn’t spoken to her directly, hence they are only rumors at this point. 
 

Then, owing to her uncertainty about the Dragon, she decides to take the EF5 to Fal Dara to meet Min and get a direct answer. Perhaps with Siuan providing additional information. 

 

Pretty good theory actually. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Yojimbo]

26 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

Congratulations!

Thanks!  Now if I can only get them published.   

[Harad the White]

8 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Thanks!  Now if I can only get them published.   

I have three books. If I only I could get them written.

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

I have three books. If I only I could get them written.

Its easy white out and a pen and you have a book.

[Joe B]

11 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

 

Its been made clear they cannot see the weaves. Im inclined to go with the visible light and air option. And that his statement and reaction was because Moiraine literally just said that. 

We know from the books, that as Wisdom apprentice, she healed with the OP without knowing it. Perhaps she took in a great amount of the OP in a pure fury. Then, not knowing what she was doing, spun multiple weaves.

[Joe B]

7 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

She just healed 12+ mortal injuries in a radius without physical contact.  Something the sisters would see as borderline impossible.

I would agree with the simultaneous healing of a dozen mortal wounds as near impossible. However, they do not heal with contact in the SHOW!

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Joe B said:

I would agree with the simultaneous healing of a dozen mortal wounds as near impossible. However, they do not heal with contact in the SHOW!

In the books to.

 

Rand heals Bela while Egwene's riding her at a distance, fleeing Trollocs.

 

Someone quoted.... Somewhere that Nynaeve healed someone, and cuts on nearby people were healed. (Maybe she has a talent?)

[CaddySedai]

Humorous but true response: Magic healing is impossible. 

 

Query: why does it bother people so much that impossible healing method one is now impossible healing method two?

[Arie]

What I find absolutely ironic is how Nyneave's healing is so Meta. 

 

In the books, she uses all 5 elements for healing instead of the trained 2-3 (i can't remember. Air and spirit?), and so everyone IN the books freaked out on how "That is not how it's done."

 

Now we have it in the show and viewers are all "that's not how it's done."

 

So meta, it's hilarious to me.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

4 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

The only way these "the prophecies aren't really believed" argument makes sense is if they didn't come from Aes Sedai with a Foretelling ability (who can't speak an untrue word & have a legit talent).

Most of the prophecies were given pre-3 oaths and in the old tongue - there are many (disputed) translations available.  For example in book 2 an AS scholar mentions a dispute with her sister over the meaning of M'avon in a prophesy - "above the watchers shall he proclaim himself" or "above the watchers over the waters shall he proclaim himself" - the prophesy was given and translated before the organisation known as the watchers over the waters existed.  

In general it is best to assume that there are multiple meanings and more than one of them will turn out to be true (for example "he will break his people with the spear of peace and destroy them with the leaf" has both a relatively superficial and a wider truth shown near the end by Moiraine).  

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

14 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Most of the prophecies were given pre-3 oaths and in the old tongue - there are many (disputed) translations available.  For example in book 2 an AS scholar mentions a dispute with her sister over the meaning of M'avon in a prophesy - "above the watchers shall he proclaim himself" or "above the watchers over the waters shall he proclaim himself" - the prophesy was given and translated before the organisation known as the watchers over the waters existed.  

In general it is best to assume that there are multiple meanings and more than one of them will turn out to be true (for example "he will break his people with the spear of peace and destroy them with the leaf" has both a relatively superficial and a wider truth shown near the end by Moiraine).  

 

While everything you're saying is true in the books, in the show, the problem is that the prophecy we know about is from an Aes Sedai (presumably who is still alive) who "can't see but can see" who apparently prophesied that the Dragon was reborn, but they don't know if it's a boy or a girl. 

 

So while you're spot on with ambiguity in translation and interpretation (which is a pretty cool aspect in the books) ... It seems to me that in the show prophecy isnt nearly as cool. We haven't really heard any of it have we? 

Maybe we'll get more once the "who is the Dragon" question is resolved. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 minute ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

While everything you're saying is true in the books, in the show, the problem is that the prophecy we know about is from an Aes Sedai

True - although I am a tremendous pedant so I draw a stark distinction between the various long standing written, disputed etc prophesies and current era fortellings (etc- dreamwalker insights, sindol questions, 3 ring terangreal lives, portal stone alternatives)- which are resulting from weaker/less precise talents, given in the vulgar tounge and known only to a few and jealously guarded (most significantly Elaida's 2 main fortellings, each of which she completely misinterprets to suit herself).

[dorotea]

46 minutes ago, Arie said:

Now we have it in the show and viewers are all "that's not how it's done."

Well, unfortunately I think this is exactly the way 'its done'. When this particular trope is in action.

 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodModeSue