Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[MarcusM]

A fan’s thought on the show so far...

 

So I have been a fan of WOT what seems like forever and even used to hang out on usenet to discuss this series long before discussions moved here. Having said that - I am annoyed, but maybe not surprised on the level of criticism the series so far has received by some fans.

 

We have a total of 14 + 1 books to turn into a show of maybe some 8 seasons. I highly doubt that we would get 14 seasons of this. That means 2 books roughly per season, and that would be impossible with 8 – 10 episodes per season. So Rafe was given a near impossible task to carve out ever so much and still keep everything in we love with the WOT universe. In addition he has to please Jeff and newcomers and everyone else that will want to have an opinion about WOT.

 

Also – it seems now that the series is out that we put these chronicles upon a pedestal! As far as I remember the books, we had many many almost unnecessary plotlines and the middle of the series around book 6/7-10, pace was infatuating slow. Fans were seriously disappointed (not only with the speed of writing) but also with the actual content of these books. Given this, there is a potential to actually make the TV series better than the books. Pray the light! (and please don’t flame away)

 

Given that there is no way to produce this show unless to make some serious changes - you have to

(1) speed things up and

(2) remove character plotlines.

 

Speeding things up means character development has to be faster. By removing plotlines some of the ripple effects will lead to adding more or other nuances to the remaining characters.

 

To all the fans out there that expected no changes – go make a reality check of your preconceived presumptions!

 

Here are my humble thoughts on some of the more upsetting changes made:

So we have 5 Ta'veren? This may seem unnecessary – but it is actually quite reasonable. That neither Nyn nor Eg are actual Ta’veren in the books doesn’t really make sense given the density of their plotlines and the importance they play. In addition – it wouldn’t really reason with our time to have 3 male main characters and 2 secondary main female char’s.

 

Possibly a female DR – my first reaction to this was that this Rafe dude is surely a complete troll. But then I figured that this would resonate with the non-book readers exploration journey. And as we know it obviously a male soul can be put into a female body. So it’s a virtual possibility and maybe it’s the Aes Sedai do-not-know-how-the-wheel-weaves-nor-wills is at work? Maybe there is not Karetheon cycle? But nah – I don’t like this. But with time this can and will for sure be cleared out.

 

Channeling logic is not as expected – Aes Sedai make flimsy hand moves, all the threads are white, the channelers has super slow weavings. I hope that there is no better way to produce this then to make it visibly for all to see the threads now as white and that when we get into channeling lessons later, we would be able to distinguish the elements apart. The flimsy hand moves must be legacy Aes Sedai bogus only that will have to be reinvented by the supergirls. The slow weavings are hopefully also something our heroes eventually will be able to do faster – even though it will never be as fast as a sword fight (remember a certain Lan battle).

 

One power logic –

 

(1) Logains ability to see Nyn’s explosion – this was apparently done to make newbies consider Nyn to be the dragon. An unnecessary move IMO! Logain should only have been able to get the tingling sensations. I think this is really an error of the crew, that will be adjusted. Or they are taking liberties. I guess we will SAFO - See And Find Out.

 

(2) Logains apparent weakness (he was impressed by Nyn and that Moir seems unimpressed by his strength will probably change going forward. He will get stronger.

 

(3) Mass heal – Great visual effect and actually moved me to tears of joy. As a bookfan my mind doesn’t like it, but my heart does. And I am willing to accept the possibility that she could theoretically be able to do something like this – even if touching would have been preferable.

 

Mats family – to speed up character development for sure. Not a big deal in my book. Need for speed.

Perrins wife – to speed up character development for sure. Not a big deal in my book. Need for speed. Honestly I don’t understand what fuzz all the anger is about here. Enlighten me someone, please!

 

Shadar's lack of fog – makes me think they will cut out the BF fight in SL, BF crossings et.c. Not really sure about the repercussions of omitting this battle, however.

 

Our 2River Char’s pathway – Of course they need to adapt this to speed things up. Did they not already say there will be no journey into Caemlyn? Baerlon was also skipped, right?

 

Omitting the prologue – might as well come later. If I had a limited budget and was responsible for the production – I would have taken that one later as well. It made very little sense even in the books to start with this. Was such a leap from that to the 2Rivers. Maybe they could make it even grander and include the drilling of the bore?

 

Character changes – Why is Nyn never tugging her braid et.c.? I love the characters. I get really annoyed when they deviate too much here! At least they straighten their dresses enough?

 

Diversity - seems modern, no issue here. To me culture and race can be separated. Thus, we will experience many cultures – but race will be blended throughout the series. Seems a reasonable move to please critics, even though some fans cry at this.

 

Pacing – this is for sure not optimal. Would have appreciated a bit more character building to be able to relate more to the characters during the first couple of episodes. At the same time my wife and son, that didn’t read the book thought the first episodes were way to slow. So I guess there is a trade-off and you cannot simply satisfy everyone?

 

So is it perfect given the circumstances? No, it’s not. But it’s worth a lot more fan-credit than some are giving it right now on IMDB / Youtube et.c.

 

So far we are off to a good start. It will be really interesting to see where we are heading in a couple of seasons. I am excited and super happy that this project is even being done. To all fans – tune down the critizism, buckle up and let’s enjoy the ride together!

[flinn]

 The prologue is what kept me hooked when I turned the page and found myself reading a LoTR book. Knowing what was to come allowed me to stay interested.

 

 I am still convinced we will see the prologue, but it will be later as maybe a dream when Rand first starts having memories.

 

 Logain should be stronger than Nynaeve. When she healed him he was toying with her, flexing but not attacking her shield. He knew that if he broke her shield he would be screwed.

[2RiversFan]

7 minutes ago, flinn said:

 Logain should be stronger than Nynaeve. When she healed him he was toying with her, flexing but not attacking her shield. He knew that if he broke her shield he would be screwed.

You're mixing Nyneave with someone else - either Moiraine or Liandrin??  

Nyneave never attempted to shield him.  Her entire use of the power was to heal with many different threads.

[MasterAblar]

1 minute ago, 2RiversFan said:

You're mixing Nyneave with someone else - either Moiraine or Liandrin??  

Nyneave never attempted to shield him.  Her entire use of the power was to heal with many different threads.

 

He's speaking of the books not the show.

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

I still posit this comes from lack of understanding.  Aes Sedai have some pretty set ideas about how much strength any given ability takes.  Logain has even less understanding than them.  Nynaeve is a prodigy healer who does things in weird ways with all powers.  

She just healed 12+ mortal injuries in a radius without physical contact.  Something the sisters would see as borderline impossible.  On top of that he can't see the weaving to see that she's doing something odd.  So from his perspective she just used overwhelming force when in reality she just used more finesse and control.

 

....and I've seen NFL wide receivers perform some mind-bendingly spectacular feats of athleticism, but I've never described them as "like a raging sun." We know from the books that massive displays of power have a visual radiance to those who can see the weaves. Beating dead horse - I'll stop now.

 

Well, except one more example. Rafe gave an interview specifically detailing the reasons the writers deliberately opened up the DR to be male or female (to "update" the work) and how they realize this will have ramifications. Then after a couple of weeks of blowback from the book fans, he gave a completely different explanation in a Reddit AMA that "hey, maybe she doesn't understand the prophesy." And you and other fans are actually trying to reconcile those positions. They can't be reconciled. Not every decision the writers make is defensible or needs to be defended. Sometimes they just goof. I still like the show, and I'm not trying to be nitpicky.

[2RiversFan]

8 minutes ago, flinn said:

I am still convinced we will see the prologue, but it will be later as maybe a dream when Rand first starts having memories.

I think that the Dragonmount scene will be the start of Ep. 8.  My theory it will be very close to the way it appears in book, but it is going to be the intro to Rand being the DR.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Beidomon said:

"like a raging sun."

It's a reference to Moiraine's earlier analogy, not his own description. The level of power he feels is more than he has ever experienced before. Like a raging sun compared to the candles of the Aes Sedai power weilded against him thus far. At least that's how I took it. 

[2RiversFan]

2 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

He's speaking of the books not the show.

Oh right.  After rereading it I see that now - my bad... And Apologies @flinn

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

....and I've seen NFL wide receivers perform some mind-bendingly spectacular feats of athleticism, but I've never described them as "like a raging sun." We know from the books that massive displays of power have a visual radiance to those who can see the weaves. Beating dead horse - I'll stop now.

 

Well, except one more example. Rafe gave an interview specifically detailing the reasons the writers deliberately opened up the DR to be male or female (to "update" the work) and how they realize this will have ramifications. Then after a couple of weeks of blowback from the book fans, he gave a completely different explanation in a Reddit AMA that "hey, maybe she doesn't understand the prophesy." And you and other fans are actually trying to reconcile those positions. They can't be reconciled. Not every decision the writers make is defensible or needs to be defended. Sometimes they just goof. I still like the show, and I'm not trying to be nitpicky.

 

You may well be right, but all he said was about the souls, not the Dragon in this turning. As others have said, it is possible that this Dragon had to be male since Saidin is tainted

[KakitaOCU]

7 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Well, except one more example. Rafe gave an interview specifically detailing the reasons the writers deliberately opened up the DR to be male or female (to "update" the work) and how they realize this will have ramifications. Then after a couple of weeks of blowback from the book fans, he gave a completely different explanation in a Reddit AMA that "hey, maybe she doesn't understand the prophesy." And you and other fans are actually trying to reconcile those positions. They can't be reconciled. Not every decision the writers make is defensible or needs to be defended. Sometimes they just goof. I still like the show, and I'm not trying to be nitpicky.

Others addressed the sun thing.

For that, check the AMA, he didn't give a completely different answer or change lines.  He said "Even more important than the possibility of a female dragon is that the prophecy is not fully believed."

So it's still possible for a soul to be male or female i Rafe's take on the series.  But it's more important in this telling of the story that people dismiss or don't fully trust the prophecies.  Until we hear otherwise the prophecies can be taken as the same as the source.  So the prophecies says Male but people aren't sure.

You can see this type of disagreement in episode 4, though it's subtle.  Moraine says "we don't know if it's a boy or a girl."  But Alanna specifically says "What if we're supposed to fight with the Dragon but the reds gentled him?"   

[Beidomon]

56 minutes ago, MarcusM said:

 

A fan’s thought on the show so far...

 

Agree with most of your points. A few nits....

 

56 minutes ago, MarcusM said:

We have a total of 14 + 1 books to turn into a show of maybe some 8 seasons. I highly doubt that we would get 14 seasons of this. That means 2 books roughly per season

 

Not if you massively trim down the latter half of the series. Which Rafe has already said they'll have to do. TEOTW makes a very good Season 1 all by itself. TSR better damn well get a full season's worth of episodes.

 

56 minutes ago, MarcusM said:

Also – it seems now that the series is out that we put these chronicles upon a pedestal! As far as I remember the books, we had many many almost unnecessary plotlines and the middle of the series around book 6/7-10, pace was infatuating slow. Fans were seriously disappointed (not only with the speed of writing) but also with the actual content of these books. Given this, there is a potential to actually make the TV series better than the books. Pray the light! (and please don’t flame away)

 

BINGO. I agree completely. My hope for WOTTV was that it could be better than WOT by cleaning up the bloat, fleshing out the characters, making the Forsaken actually somewhat competent, etc. There IS room for improvement.

 

56 minutes ago, MarcusM said:

To all the fans out there that expected no changes – go make a reality check of your preconceived presumptions!

 

I don't think even the harshest critics here have suggested that.

[Beidomon]

14 minutes ago, 2RiversFan said:

I think that the Dragonmount scene will be the start of Ep. 8.  My theory it will be very close to the way it appears in book, but it is going to be the intro to Rand being the DR.

 

If by Dragonmount scene you mean The Prologue, then I can get behind this. I hope it happens.

 

I'm not sure how they do the birth scene as a flashback because that would be Tam's flashback. So I guess it'll be a dream or something. Or maybe it'll be Rand having a flashback of Tam's flashback? A flashback within a flashback?!

[Harad the White]

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You can see this type of disagreement in episode 4, though it's subtle.  Moraine says "we don't know if it's a boy or a girl."  But Alanna specifically says "What if we're supposed to fight with the Dragon but the reds gentled him?"   

Don't see that as a disagreement. Alanna might have meant "What if we're supposed to fight with the Dragon  (but he is a male) and the reds gentled him?"

[Beidomon]

3 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Don't see that as a disagreement. Alanna might have meant "What if we're supposed to fight with the Dragon  (but he is a male) and the reds gentled him?"

And then Mo should have responded “welp, maybe the Dragon will be a girl!” to make Alanna feel better. You know, because maybe Mo (who has devoted her life to finding the DR) “misunderstood the prophesy.” LOL

Edited November 30, 2021 by Beidomon

[Harad the White]

5 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

And then Mo should have responded “welp, maybe the Dragon will be a girl!” to make Alanna feel better. You know, because maybe Mo (who has devoted her life to finding the DR) “misunderstood the prophesy.” LOL

Not needed. Every single word doesn't have to be spelled out for most. LMAOLKITA

[Vambram]

47 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It's a reference to Moiraine's earlier analogy, not his own description. The level of power he feels is more than he has ever experienced before. Like a raging sun compared to the candles of the Aes Sedai power weilded against him thus far. At least that's how I took it. 

 

That is how I reacted to Logain's response as well to Nynaeve's mass group healing. Although I don't believe he saw Nynaeve's weaves, he did see the effects of her weaves. Also, in the books, when a male channeler is nearby a female channels saidar, the male feels goosebumps. I believe that Logain felt an enormous rush of the goosebumps on his skin as well as seeing the effects of all of those mortally wounded people suddenly be healed. 

[Harad the White]

Does anybody fault Logain for attacking the Aes Sedai? They are after him and are going to inflict a punishment worse than death (see Thom's story to Rand). And, despite the fact that he is only defending himself, Liandrin has cooked the jury to inflict summary judgement. 

[Katherine]

Nah. 

 

They did an excellent job of making Logain a likeable (yet dangerous) character with the opening scene. His escape attempt was totally understandable, and I wanted to cry along with him after he was gentled. 

[Maximillion]

7 minutes ago, Katherine said:

Nah. 

 

They did an excellent job of making Logain a likeable (yet dangerous) character with the opening scene. His escape attempt was totally understandable, and I wanted to cry along with him after he was gentled. 

 

He has just led an army - presumably killing hundreds if not thousands.

He's not exactly a saint.

[KakitaOCU]

18 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Does anybody fault Logain for attacking the Aes Sedai? They are after him and are going to inflict a punishment worse than death (see Thom's story to Rand). And, despite the fact that he is only defending himself, Liandrin has cooked the jury to inflict summary judgement. 

Do I fault Logain himself?  No.

But I also wouldn't fault someone hallucinating zombies firing a gun into a crowd.  There's a reason not guilty for insanity is a thing.

The reality is the reds perform a needed service.  It's not pretty, it's not great, but it is needed.

[Agitel]

4 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

He has just led an army - presumably killing hundreds if not thousands.

He's not exactly a saint.

 

Book spoilers.

 

Spoiler

So do Rand, Mat, and Perrin.

 

[Katherine]

Neither is Rand. Or Moraine. Or Elayne. Or Elaida. Or Valda. Or any other military leader.

[Harad the White]

15 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

There's a reason not guilty for insanity is a thing.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you. In this series so far, there have not been any outward manifestations of "madness." In fact, Logain appears to be the sanest of that crowd. In Ghealdan he is calm, reasonable, and refutes the evil voices in his ear. With Moiraine, he speaks rationally, and from his point of view, since there is no comparison, he may very well be the DR.

 

BTW this thread has "full book spoilers" so why hide things?

Edited November 30, 2021 by Harad the White

[Katherine]

4 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

Book spoilers.

 

  Hide contents

So do Rand, Mat, and Perrin.

 

YOu beat me!

[Maximillion]

7 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

Book spoilers.

 

  Hide contents

So do Rand, Mat, and Perrin.

 

 

They are not saints either.