Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Badmaw]

I always saw the gender roles in this story as two sides of the same coin.  The roles are the same as our society in general.  Women excel in certain roles while men excel in others.  When they work together though, they go above and beyond. The Aes Sedai and warden relationships are an example of both genders relying on one another to survive.  One could not survive without the other. And, As in real life, some women hate or look down on men and some men feel the same about women.

[ArrylT]

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

The thing is they were prepared.  They sent 8 sisters to capture Logain, which is possibly taking the place of 13.  It just happened that Logain is SO much more powerful than they realised, and really there is no way they could have known before hand.  Him being so powerful led to only 3 of the 8 sent being strong enough to maintain a shield around him and that requiring 2 to be shielding him at all times.  And we know from the show that still wasn't enough as he was prepared to breakout whenever he needed.

 

3 of the currently most power Aes Sedai could only safely shield him together.... how much more prepared could they have been?

 

Oh that gives extra impact for the opening sequence where we saw how confident/cocky they were against that guy.  Overconfidence is a common flaw, and definitely one I remember being frequent in The Wheel of Time.

[ArrylT]

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

In the books they have 8 shielding Logain in Caemlyn. 13 is only for formal occasions, like gentling, and the reason is because nobody can resist that, like Rand in LoC. 

 

Definitely this. And also showing their complacency and arrogance. The point with the army is also that - they all (maybe not Kerene) believed they ran home to their mothers, like Liandrin said. 

 

Possible, but I think they haven't given us enough background for this. The empty tower hasn't been referred to at all yet. 

 

In TSR in the Two Rivers they are in the field. 

 

I don't agree with this at all. In the first two episodes, and sometimes in the latter ones, he is a caring and amusing individual. He cares for Perrin at the end of Ep1, he is emotional when R and P give him money. Yes, he gambles too much, but no degeneracy. And I don't believe at all that he stole the armlet. Maybe we are meant to think so, but to me it just doesn't fit at all with the character as portrayed in the show. 

 

 

 

There is a long literary tradition of pie-stealing being considered a normal childhood escapade. Not thieving as such

 

Though we could add this to the list of examples of RJ describing the three as acting much younger than they really are

 

Personally I hated BS's Mat, I found it written completely wrong, although better in Tom and MoL than TGS. And this was one example. 

One of the things mentioned in the interview that dropped yesterday was his acknowledgement that he felt he had miswrote Mat in the 1st of the 3.

[Canukistani]

This redditor sums up all my feelings about the show's detractors.
 

 

[Therese Sedai]

Oops somehow posted in the wrong thread. Sorry.

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Therese Sedai
wrong thread!

[Sabio]

There are alot, book one is mostly all changes.

Perin killing his wife, he has no wife in the book.  Brandon even said that takes the place of Perin killing the Whitecloaks.

Nyn shoving Egwene off a cliff.

Edmond's Field having a sacred pool.

Mat's parents.

No fever dream from Tam.

Egwene and Rand doing the deed.

They don't go to Berelon. White Bridge, or Caemlyn.

Where they meet Min has changed,

The Whitecloak they have issues with isn't Bornhold or Byar but Eamon Valda.

They don't meet Thom in the Two Rivers anymore.

 

This is just some of the few things I can think of.

 

Most of the changes haven't impacted the story much.  Like not going to all those towns, there just wouldn't be time to have them visit all those cities so instead they go to and meet up in Tar Valon.  A couple of changes hasn't sat well with many, like what they did to Mat's parents,

Edited December 10, 2021 by Sabio

[Arie]

43 minutes ago, Canukistani said:

This redditor sums up all my feelings about the show's detractors.
 

 

 

Merged into this thread, doesn't need it's own thread. thanks!

[Canukistani]

2 hours ago, Arie said:

 

Merged into this thread, doesn't need it's own thread. thanks!

did the original thread name of this thread get changed to mine?

[SinisterDeath]

3 hours ago, Arie said:

 

Merged into this thread, doesn't need it's own thread. thanks!

You dun messed up the merge order and renamed the thread!

 

I fixed it.

[ArrylT]

I guess that why Moderators & Doctors are both so valuable in E-Merge-ncies. ?

[ArrylT]

Anyways, and this is (a) subjective and (b) their acting to me is amazing regardless (not that surprising considering both are nominated for awards for past roles)

 

But I just realized that both the actors who play Siuan and Liandrin are in their 50s.   Well neither of them look like it on the show - so score one for the ageless look.  ?

 

Just another thing that I can add to the massive list of things the show is doing right (for me).  ? 

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

10 hours ago, Talya said:

I assumed he had won the bracelet off the girl and then tried to sell it…or she gave it to him as a token, hence he couldn’t have her find out he was selling it to get things for his sisters. But I could be wrong ?

I agree with the latter suggestion - this is clearly implied in Rand's comment in the wood chopping scene in E3 - "I thought Moraine was more your speed" - suggesting Mat has a history of being a golddigger for sugarmommies / cub for cougars which would be in line with the general matriarchal/misandrist slant of this world.  From that point I assumed he has obtained the bracelet as a present (to put it more nicely than "by prostituting himself" rather than  by theft).

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

7 hours ago, Badmaw said:

I always saw the gender roles in this story as two sides of the same coin.  The roles are the same as our society in general.  Women excel in certain roles while men excel in others.  When they work together though, they go above and beyond. The Aes Sedai and warden relationships are an example of both genders relying on one another to survive.  One could not survive without the other. And, As in real life, some women hate or look down on men and some men feel the same about women.

Although in the books both Nynaeve and Elaine are shocked when they encounter an outright misogynist (the river boat captain who takes them downriver to Salidar), who is apparently the sole example of such they have met (although most with such attitudes might have the sense to keep them to themselves before these particular women).  In contrast examples of misandry are everywhere (the attitude is keenly encouraged in the red ajah and for all inhabitants of Far Madding for examples), although many of these are on the mild side.

[futurehermit]

This thread has been a great read.  

 

Re: Lan needing a moment of awesomeness.  I thought it was a miss that they didn't have the scene where Lan and the rest of the party are forced to fight trollocs and a fade en route to Shadar Logoth.  They are just about to lose when Lan beheads the fade and the trollocs die horribly because they were linked to the fade.  A great, suspenseful scene that shows how great Lan is while also showing something about fades and trollocs. It would've fit nicely in the Shadar Logoth episode.  Also, boo to those saying Lan was blah in EOTW.  Loved him since the beginning.

 

Re: Mat.  I think it was a miss to make Mat more negative in attitude from the beginning.  Mat's prankster, lighter attitude was a great contrast for showing the effects of the dagger over time.  In the show, if he didn't vomit up mashadar (weird), we'd hardly see the effects of the curse because he was already brooding and surly.  I miss I'm-not-a-flaming-hero Mat.

 

Re: cut content.  I really missed Baerlon and my jaw hit the floor when I realized they cut Caemlyn.  I miss the days of 16 or even 13 episodes in a season.  Baerlon had so many key components, including Min being associated with Rand's roots, Rand being marked by the fade, Rand running into Padan Fain, Rand's encounter with the Whitecloaks and clearly holding the power, etc.    I also think cutting Elyas was a miss.  He introduces the wolves by name and gives them depth and personality that is sorely missed.  Plus his interactions with the Tinkers are great.

 

Re: Rand.  They've hidden him so well on the show, do we even care about him at this point?  Him punching through the reinforced door was kinda lame compared to him calling lightning in the book.  And why oh why doesn't he have Tam's sword?  The heron mark sword is so important for many reasons including Rand being marked with the heron to help name him as the Dragon.

 

Re: Thom -- not bad but just too rushed.  Not having Bayle Domon and his aged grandmother references and the time on the ship do be a miss.

 

Re: episode 4.  Definitely a hit for me.  Nynaeve being awesome brought tears to my eyes.  The triangle of her, Moraine, and Lan feels authentic to the book and they are the strongest so far for me.

 

Re: Logain -- big hit for me.  Love him and Liandrin both.

 

Re: Steppin.  Not a fan of the addition.  Other ways to showcase the bond and to later foreshadow the red door ter'angreal scene without eating up valuable season 1 real estate.  Why cut so much just to add that?  Big miss for me.

 

Re: Loial.  Great intro but so, so rushed.

 

Overall: I am liking it so far but worry about it missing the heights it could've reached with 13 episodes per season instead of 8.

 

 

 

 

[ForsakenPotato]

24 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Yeah but while that logic is all well and good, those lines are blurred now in today's time with all the gender fluidity happening. This is why Jordan's WoT universe does not translate well today because sadly, gender relativism is basically a crime now.

 

In the Second Age, it was both male and female Aes Sedai working together that bore a hole to the True Power. While the effort was a grand show of teamwork, the results were obviously bad.

Aren't we ignoring some of the gender fluidity that already exists in the books though? I mean, for a good chunk of the series Min is so much more comfortable in boys clothes and a boys haircut that when she wears a dress and does her hair it's literally a disguise. That's pretty gender-nonconforming even by today's standards.

[Maximillion]

So then, 'five dragons'.. 'many headed dragon'. ?

 

Also what was the introduction of the idea that it's 'certain death' to be in the same place as the DO and the Dragon as they fought?

 

I do get the attempt they are making to show that no one really knows very much at all - which is a bit of a shame - but it just feels like such a lazy way to set up the danger to the characters.  (not that many people are likely to care about most of them as the characters have barely been developed).

 

The Eye of The World episode has the makings of a total disaster.

I tried to picture the worst scene ever and came up with there being 4 'child dragons' and Mother Dragon Nynaeve... they all channel through her to a single combined power.  I then thought ' oh no' that is exactly the kind of rubbish Rafe would come up with.

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Maximillion

[Maximillion]

I have called this show shallow and I want to underline something from EP6 that demonstrates it clearly.

 

So, by my reckoning less than 1 year ago in the seasons timeline, Rand, Nynaeve, Egwene, Matt and Perrin were blissfully living their happy lives in EF.

Now, some Aes Sedai rather casually tells them they are going through the Ways to pop in to see the DO and that someone in the group is going to have to kill him.  Not sure how, not sure who the Dragon is, but we'll just pop over there and see what happens. Sure!  Why not?  Let's head off then, lead the way. 

 

It is totally unbelievable - this is a world where the people are terrified of the DO and will not even say his name. Just imagine if some woman you met less than a year ago told you that you should come through a portal to go and meet the Devil and that maybe you might have to fight him - or maybe not - depending on whether you are some saviour, which you may or may not be.  Good grief.

 

That scene was so bad that my jaw dropped as I was watching it.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Maximillion

[Mailman]

Its just getting worse and worse nothing explained characters just arriving at the next scene.

 

Moiraine and Siuan now lovers to the point she delays telling Siuan that she has found the Dragon till after they have sex.

 

The politics is like some highschool drama

 

Not a adaption at all just using the names to get people watching.

[Maximillion]

17 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Its just getting worse and worse nothing explained characters just arriving at the next scene.

 

Moiraine and Siuan now lovers to the point she delays telling Siuan that she has found the Dragon till after they have sex.

 

The politics is like some highschool drama

 

Not a adaption at all just using the names to get people watching.

 

After that episode ~I think the best outcome now is for the show to be cancelled at the end of the season - maybe just release season 2 together if it's already been made.  Just end it so that maybe, just maybe, someone else can make this story a screen reality.

If this goes on much longer and burns more money there is no way this story will ever make it back to the screen.

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Maximillion

[fra85uk]

They have very good actors and everything ends up being so cheesy because of writing. 

They have plenty of money and everything ends up being so cheap because of poor costumes/lighting/editing/directing.

 

Let's just ignore that this is WoT adaptation, these enormous flaws still remain.

 

It's frankly sad because it could be soooooooo good.

[Gothic Flame]

A couple of weeks ago I mentioned a rumor that Rafe was going to flip the table on expectations on episode 8..(something from a reddit).

I think whoever said it may have been right. Although I have to wonder if he or she didn't typoed "8" for "6."

[Yojimbo]

3 hours ago, Maximillion said:

So then, 'five dragons'.. 'many headed dragon'. ?

 

Also what was the introduction of the idea that it's 'certain death' to be in the same place as the DO and the Dragon as they fought?

 

I do get the attempt they are making to show that no one really knows very much at all - which is a bit of a shame - but it just feels like such a lazy way to set up the danger to the characters.  (not that many people are likely to care about most of them as the characters have barely been developed).

 

The Eye of The World episode has the makings of a total disaster.

I tried to picture the worst scene ever and came up with there being 4 'child dragons' and Mother Dragon Nynaeve... they all channel through her to a single combined power.  I then thought ' oh no' that is exactly the kind of rubbish Rafe would come up with.

 

It certainly looks like there will be no Aginor and Balthamel (as I suspected) at the Eye.  And my joke about the EF5 being living horcruxes who share the DR title looks unbelievably to actually be on the table.   I am absolutely gobsmacked at how this is going.  Just gets less and less like the WoT as it goes.   It's really heartbreaking. 

[Maximillion]

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

A couple of weeks ago I mentioned a rumor that Rafe was going to flip the table on expectations on episode 8..(something from a reddit).

I think whoever said it may have been right. Although I have to wonder if he or she didn't typoed "8" for "6."

 

Kind of a lose lose situation now - massively underwhelming if it is Rand or some horrible idea from Rafe's head on the Dragon.

I don't think there is any way out of what they have written unless they somehow get back to the story and make the next 2 episodes all about Rand.. with lots of flashbacks to his journey , including the fever dream.

[Skipp]

It has been an interesting ride watching people lose their minds over only seeing part of the whole and then taking that as a fact.

 

combining Saidin/Saidar, Aiel don't wear veils, they've removed Padan Fain from the show etc....

 

The book series was massive for the unreliable narrator trope and I think the TV show is no different in that regard.  Concerning the 5 headed dragon and the Dark ones prison being at the Eye might be more of the same and WAFO.

 

I could be wrong, the show has done this a couple of times when I thought things would be smoothed over compared to the initial reactions, Loial's appearance being the big one that I can think of off the top of my head.

 

But ultimately I think it's best to sit back and don't let these things bother you until we know it for fact in the show.  Even after that we might not know everything.

 

Can't wait until next week,

[Gothic Flame]

6 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Can't wait until next week,

Y'know, I can't wait either.

For different reasons though.