tv show spoilers A thread about Plot Holes and Inconsistencies...

[Spiritweaver1]

So having pondered many comments of the community on this topic  and especially the video review I will just make a point.  Namely the current show path of rewriting the series pretty much wholesale is going to make the  series much weaker than it should have been. The writing room has only a certain amount of creative energy.  Instead of using that energy to adapt existing plot successfully to the small screen and ensure that the details (such as scene details, dialog and accents) speak to Randland, they have to spend it creating brand new storylines. that are not necessarily improving the story. I appreciate the variety of opinions on this topic.  However, RJ spent a lot of time meticulously creating stories, characters, cultures and dialogs.  The writing room won't be able to redo the story and keep from massive plot holes and inconsistencies.  

[KakitaOCU]

15 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

...The writing room won't be able to redo the story and keep from massive plot holes and inconsistencies.  

Can you share any of those at this time for discussion?

[Spiritweaver1]

34 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Can you share any of those at this time for discussion?

Well this gets us a bit off topic of this particular thread so maybe it should be moved.  The show creative team decided to turn Randland  into a Buddhist based universe  Everyone is bound to the wheel and is spun out into new lives every so often,  This was not the case in the books per TGH page 559 A. Hawkwing says "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the pattern of the Ages."   There is more but this gives the idea.  So in Randland V2.0 Moraine has already told us that the Wheel doesn't want anything it just is.  In addition, everybody is bound to the Wheel.  So what is going to happen when the  Horn of Valere is sounded next season?  Are all the dead coming back to fight for the Hornsounder?  The Wheel can't sort the hero's from the not hero's!!

 

Thats the kind of thing I am talking about.   I will point out that there are inconsistencies in the books  as well but that truly is  a different thread.  

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Spiritweaver1
Add a bit of context.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Everyone is bound to the wheel and is spun out into new lives every so often,

Or so they believe. It may not in fact be so. There's a lot of ground yet to cover in establishing what the actual metaphysics of this version of Wheel of Time look like.

[Agitel]

Everyone is reborn in the WOT books. It's not just the Heroes. The Heroes lived particularly heroic lives and are spun out regularly to repeat those particular stories or for specific purposes. But everyone, everyone from poorest da'cavole in Seanchan to the Amyrlin Seat is a reincarnated person who has lived infinite lives already. It's why all their Oaths are based on their hopes of rebirth.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Agitel

[DaddyFinn]

Aren't the Heroes bound to the Horn..?

[SinisterDeath]

39 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Aren't the Heroes bound to the Horn..?

There are only ever 100 heroes bound to the horn at a time. They wait in Tel'aran'rhiod  for the wheel to spin them out into the world to be reborn, or for the Horn to Call Them. When a Hero is reborn, a new hero is bound to the horn, replenishing their numbers.

What @Elder_Haman is talking about, is we don't know if the TV show is going to employ the same metaphysics as the books. One common theme in the books, is that people think they know the truth and they don't. Yet everyone is sure they know how the metaphysics work... but it's never explained how they know they work the way they believe it does. 

The show, could keep the same metaphysics in the book, but employ incorrect information about the metaphysical realities of their world. 

 

E.g, the Books state souls are binary along gender. The show says souls are genderless. Both can be true, and it can be done this way if the people are entirely wrong about how the metaphysics of their universe actually work. 

Or they could make it so the modern setting claims the metaphysics are non-binary, while the AoL people believed it was Binary, and now know one really knows the truth because of the father of lies.

 

 

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

"Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the pattern of the Ages."

In this I agree with @Agitel

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

Everyone is reborn in the WOT books. It's not just the Heroes. The Heroes lived particularly heroic lives and are spun out regularly to repeat those particular stories or for specific purposes. But everyone, everyone from poorest da'cavole in Seanchan to the Amyrlin Seat is a reincarnated person who has lived infinite lives already. It's why all their Oaths are based on their hopes of rebirth.

I believe what Artur was talking about here are Ta'Varen are literally bound by the Wheel.  It's generally accepted among fans that all souls are eventually reborn in the Wheel of Time series. They are threads spun out by the wheel, and only a select few are bound to the wheel, as a way to correct the pattern.

Lore wise, People are not outside the Pattern, but they are part of the threads that shape the Pattern. Onward, Balefire can destroy anything, but the only time it affects time is when you use it on people.

 

E.g. you can use the strongest balefire possible on a sword that was used to kill a loved one, but it doesn't have a thread to burn back time.

[Spiritweaver1]

51 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

In this I agree with @Agitel

I believe what Artur was talking about here are Ta'Varen are literally bound by the Wheel.  It's generally accepted among fans that all souls are eventually reborn in the Wheel of Time series. They are threads spun out by the wheel, and only a select few are bound to the wheel, as a way to correct the pattern.

Lore wise, People are not outside the Pattern, but they are part of the threads that shape the Pattern. Onward, Balefire can destroy anything, but the only time it affects time is when you use it on people.

 

E.g. you can use the strongest balefire possible on a sword that was used to kill a loved one, but it doesn't have a thread to burn back time.

Well I am new to this community and certainly haven't spent years dissecting the books with others.  Would one of you expert kindly provide a book/author based reference for the bolded statement above?  What is the basis for that belief?  After many readings of the books my conclusion has been that those who die go to a greek style afterlife presided over by the Lord of the Grave.  If he releases you then you get a new body such as our pal Ishamael.  My second theory was that their soul energy goes back to the Mother (Gaia) to be recycled as a leaf is recycled.  The energy gets recycled but not the actual leaf (personality).  Good job on that exposition in the show btw.   I never got  a reincarnation for all Randland.     People are certainly threads in the pattern.   All the hero's are not Ta'varen.  No where in the book is Birgitte identified as such.  As a matter of fact I think at some point she denies it.   

 

I have always liked the idea that the various cultures in Randland were able to hang on to specific bits of knowledge which were known in the Age of Legends.  One of those threads (IMHO) is the Way of the Leaf.  It was always the hardest of paths.  Only those who had the courage and strength to overcome their baser human instincts would dedicate themselves to the way of the leaf.    Just sayin.

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, Spiritweaver1 said:

After many readings of the books my conclusion has been that those who die go to a greek style afterlife presided over by the Lord of the Grave

The DO has the power to intercept souls and forcibly put them into new bodies/stasis, etc.

I've never read anything in the book that suspects they have a "greek style afterlife" presided over by Hades, with the select few going to the Elysian Fields...

 

2 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

My second theory was that their soul energy goes back to the Mother (Gaia) to be recycled as a leaf is recycled.  The energy gets recycled but not the actual leaf (personality).  

Which is also reincarnation... because not every soul reincarnated is going to have the same personality, destiny, etc.

 

3 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

People are certainly threads in the pattern.   All the hero's are not Ta'varen.  No where in the book is Birgitte identified as such.  As a matter of fact I think at some point she denies it.   

I didn't say heroes were Ta'Varen. Ta'Varen are bound to the wheel. The Heroes are bound to the Horn. 

 

5 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Well I am new to this community and certainly haven't spent years dissecting the books with others.  Would one of you expert kindly provide a book/author based reference for the bolded statement above?  What is the basis for that belief?

From the cursory WoT wiki & Interview database searches I made before before my previous post, I wasn't able to find anything that concretely said which way it worked (hence the "generally accepted by fans" that it works this way).

I believe from my crappy memory that we have characters in the books that state all souls are reborn, not just important souls.
The Interview database hasn't enlightened anything... Apparently no one bothered to ask RJ if every souls is spun out by the Wheel, not just heroes and specific souls like LTT.

But generally speaking, with systems where rebirth is true, it's universal. The only thing that isn't universal is when a specific soul is reborn with the same purpose/destiny. 

[Ralph]

https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/44135-thoughts-on-personality-and-its-connection-to-the-soul/

[Spiritweaver1]

5 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

It

Which is also reincarnation... because not every soul reincarnated is going to have the same personality, destiny, etc.

 

I didn't say heroes were Ta'Varen. Ta'Varen are bound to the wheel. The Heroes are bound to the Horn. 

 

From the cursory WoT wiki & Interview database searches I made before before my previous post, I wasn't able to find anything that concretely said which way it worked (hence the "generally accepted by fans" that it works this way).

I believe from my crappy memory that we have characters in the books that state all souls are reborn, not just important souls.
The Interview database hasn't enlightened anything... Apparently no one bothered to ask RJ if every souls is spun out by the Wheel, not just heroes and specific souls like LTT.

But generally speaking, with systems where rebirth is true, it's universal. The only thing that isn't universal is when a specific soul is reborn with the same purpose/destiny. 

I am going through all the books again.  i will let you know if I find anything from future books.  I am just finishing TSR but as far as i can remember my reference above (TGH page 559) should be considered official cannon. That clearly says that only a few are bound to the
Wheel.  There is considerable discussion with Brirgitte later on so perhaps it is there that I will find everyone is reincarnated.

 

 However, if you substitute Elysian Fields for Tel"aran'rhiod that's sort of the set up with Charon = our big bad.  RJ stole ideas from many places and cultures and blended them up.  Thats why I love the story.  Anyway this potential plot hole exists only in the future. I just used this example of where I don't think the writing team has the horsepower to keep all the eggs in the basket if they wander too far from the original plot.  

[Spiritweaver1]

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Aren't the Heroes bound to the Horn..?

Nope sorry per TGH page 559 the hero's are bound to the Wheel.  The horn is not mentioned in any of the discussion on that page.  The horn calls them back from Tel"aran'rhiod (World of Dreams) where they spend their time in Valhalla or chasing endless herds of deer over the grassy plains depending on their preference.   They have to fight for whoever sounds the horn provided the previous horn sounder is dead.  

[JaimAybara]

2 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Nope sorry per TGH page 559 the hero's are bound to the Wheel.  The horn is not mentioned in any of the discussion on that page.  The horn calls them back from Tel"aran'rhiod (World of Dreams) where they spend their time in Valhalla or chasing endless herds of deer over the grassy plains depending on their preference.   They have to fight for whoever sounds the horn provided the previous horn sounder is dead.  

Nevertheless at the end don’t we also learn that these heroes…

Spoiler

would never fight for the dark even if they blew the horn? wasn’t it a misconception in-world? So, they fight when called against evil. (Which is technically a reveal after the last battle.) 

 

[Agitel]

34 minutes ago, Ralph said:

https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/44135-thoughts-on-personality-and-its-connection-to-the-soul/

 

Thanks. Nightstrike provided relevant Jordan quotes in January 2010.

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

Nevertheless at the end don’t we also learn that these heroes…

  Hide contents

would never fight for the dark even if they blew the horn? wasn’t it a misconception in-world? So, they fight when called against evil. (Which is technically a reveal after the last battle.) 

 

As a fun aside to this.  Here is a fundamental ideal held as 100% factual in universe by the characters turned to be completely false.

Seems a perfectly sound example and gives some credence to the idea that maybe in universe perspectives are not 100% factual.

[king of nowhere]

so, it seems people in this forum - people who are great experts of the books - can't even agree exactly on what is the metaphysics of the books.

all the while, I haven't seen anyone point out any inconsistency from the show...

[JaimAybara]

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

As a fun aside to this.  Here is a fundamental ideal held as 100% factual in universe by the characters turned to be completely false.

Seems a perfectly sound example and gives some credence to the idea that maybe in universe perspectives are not 100% factual.

I am actually really excited about this, not to mention some of the prophesies have been introduced by name now, so I hope they incorporate a little bit more of that and allow non-book readers to make predictions and try and interpret the prophesy. I am really jealous of them for that so I hope the show-runners do it right. 
 

*As this could potentially be a problem area for them if not done right. That being said, it’s just been introduced.* 

Edited December 6, 2021 by JaimAybara

[Agitel]

I'll just reiterate again, the people of the WOT world make their strongest oaths on their hopes of rebirth. In addition to the Jordan quotes provided, I think this establishes in-world belief that the people of this fictional world have of reincarnation for all.

[ManetherenTaveren]

When the seven Great cuendillar Seals crack and crumble from age and pressure, a great plot hole shall be created, from which the Forsaken and Dark One may escape! This probably should be discussed in the show, wouldn't you think?

 

Also, when Rand and Nyneave finally get around to cleansing saidin, another sizeable hole will develop where Shadar Logoth once stood. A huge hole, indeed.

 

(I'll show myself out of this obnoxious thread)

[Spiritweaver1]

So to refocus this discussion I think the greatest  danger to story continuity issues which will come from the massive rewrite fall into two categories.

 

The first is where, in the book there are encounters where our gang get useful information that set their course going forward.  In the show that encounter may be  written out.  For example in the books the plot to capture the eye of the world comes in several directions which convinces Moraine that it is true.  Some of that has already passed in the show so it will be interesting to see how/if our plucky hero's get pointed in that direction.

 

The second danger area is the change in character arcs.  So when Perrin goes back to the Two Rivers in a bit he works with Rand and Matt's dad to rally the villagers to fight the second round of Trollocs.  Yet in the show Matt's dad is portrayed as being an unfortunate soul who won't even try to find his lost daughters.  Well no one walks so long in the dark that they can't come to the light or  perhaps someone else will help Perrin.  One of RJ's mistakes was when they were rescuing Matt's mom and sisters and the Luhan's (who don't exist in the show) he had Perrin talking to Master al Vere who was clearly back at the village.  It can happen to the best. 

 

I haven't detected any actual holes yet but deviating from a well plotted story should provide us with plenty of opportunity for discussion in the weeks and years ahead.  I might add looking for plot problems is not my focus when watching.  I am sure we have lots of editor types who will help!!

 

 

 

[Spiritweaver1]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

I'll just reiterate again, the people of the WOT world make their strongest oaths on their hopes of rebirth. In addition to the Jordan quotes provided, I think this establishes in-world belief that the people of this fictional world have of reincarnation for all.

This is very true.  However it is sort of beside the point I originally made which was that Moraine has said that the Wheel doesn't want or chose it just is.  In the book the Wheel (not the creator) choses the hero's.  So again how does the Horn work when sounded?  Does everybody come back?

Edited December 7, 2021 by Spiritweaver1

[Kudzu]

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

This is very true.  However it is sort of beside the point I originally made which was that Moraine has said that the Wheel doesn't want or chose it just is.  In the book the Wheel (not the creator) choses the hero's.  So again how does the Horn work when sounded?  Does everybody come back?

 

Minor point, but she never says the Wheel doesn't choose, just that it doesn't (and can't) want. The Wheel weaves the pattern of the age and will spin out a hero when it is needed to serve the course of the pattern. I've heard the Wheel likened to an AI programmed by the creator, it doesn't have wants or needs, but makes decisions based it's programming.

 

In answer to your question, the fact that every soul can be re-born does not mean they are all bound to the Wheel as the hero's are and will be called by the horn. I agree, the line from Hawking is a bit ambiguous, but I wouldn't take that to mean only hero's souls can be reborn.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Kudzu

[grayavatar]

13 hours ago, Agitel said:

I'll just reiterate again, the people of the WOT world make their strongest oaths on their hopes of rebirth. In addition to the Jordan quotes provided, I think this establishes in-world belief that the people of this fictional world have of reincarnation for all.

It implies that reincarnation is not guaranteed. You wouldn't hope for it if it was the norm.

I hope I win the lottery, but I have never won any significant amount in the lottery.

[grayavatar]

I feel that unless they storyboarded the entire story up to book 14 prior to writing the script for season 1 they might end up losing control of events with all these changes..

If they followed the books they could have used the books like a rail track, deviating occasionally and then getting back on track.

 

Episode 4 gave me hope that it was getting back on track but episode 5 shattered those thoughts

[Agitel]

12 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

This is very true.  However it is sort of beside the point I originally made which was that Moraine has said that the Wheel doesn't want or chose it just is.  In the book the Wheel (not the creator) choses the hero's.  So again how does the Horn work when sounded?  Does everybody come back?

 

No, just the 100 or so, as described, specially set aside and spun out to relive their classic tale or for other special purposes.

 

And I want to be clear I'm not just shilling for the show. If you asked me this on Dragonmount ten years ago and I'd give the same answer. We can take this over to the book boards if you want. The position is supported by words from Jordan, too.

 

***

 

Edit: I went Google-searched ancient dragonmount posts of mine to back up what I wrote about "If you asked me ten years ago." Some of these may be nonsensical out of context, but implicit in them... My opinion is not just a recent show thing

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Agitel