tv show spoilers White Cloaks - Bad writing or ? - TV show spoilers ahead!

[Daenelia]

6 hours ago, Reader said:

My main question about the White Cloaks would be about the moustaches.  Has that been discussed anywhere yet?

 I don't think so. Is facial hair a thing with White Cloaks? I must have read past that in the books?

[ArrylT]

55 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

 I don't think so. Is facial hair a thing with White Cloaks? I must have read past that in the books?

 

I know Thom was famous for a moustache but like you I do not recall if any of the White Cloaks did.  I'm pretty sure Galad did not (although he isnt a WC yet or even introduced).  

Edited November 25, 2021 by ArrylT

[JenniferL]

It gives Elayne something to tug on. 

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Daenelia said:

 I don't think so. Is facial hair a thing with White Cloaks? I must have read past that in the books?

It's 100% a show thing.

 

It also makes me invison them as douche try hard Cops/wannabe Military cosplayers. 

[Daenelia]

Well, now that you mention it, I do see a lot of very wrong facial hair on the white cloaks. I don't associate that with cops though. But a lot of dictators had wrong facial hair.

[DojoToad]

On 11/24/2021 at 7:49 PM, king of nowhere said:

wrong.

in the books, the oath specifically mentioned shadowspawn as being exempted.

you think of shaido, maybe.

 

 

 

 

oh, by the way. moiraine may not be able to blast valda for asking. but lan would not be so inhibited.

or, she could bind him in air and set the weaves to unravel in a day, that would be something she'd be perfectly capable of doing without violating oaths.

Don't know that she can split her weaves that many ways and she would be vulnerable until they were all tied...

[SinisterDeath]

34 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Don't know that she can split her weaves that many ways and she would be vulnerable until they were all tied...

Theoretically she could weave a thing line of air around each white cloaks throats ready to be employed if they turned hostile, decapitating all of them around her in an instant... 

She could have set a bead of fire next to each of their faces ready to burst 

 

And they'd never know she was up to anything unless they had a ter'angreal to sense the OP's use.

 

 

[KakitaOCU]

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Theoretically she could weave a thing line of air around each white cloaks throats ready to be employed if they turned hostile, decapitating all of them around her in an instant... 

She could have set a bead of fire next to each of their faces ready to burst 

 

And they'd never know she was up to anything unless they had a ter'angreal to sense the OP's use.

 

 

People look at the folks with multiple weaves at once and don't think about using one weave creatively.  

Lovely example from not these books, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality.  A wizard transfigures a very small amount of matter into razor wire that loops slowly around the necks and wrists of a dozen or so targets all before one big yank.  No splitting the focus a dozen ways, just once with creativity.

[Maximillion]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

People look at the folks with multiple weaves at once and don't think about using one weave creatively.  

Lovely example from not these books, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality.  A wizard transfigures a very small amount of matter into razor wire that loops slowly around the necks and wrists of a dozen or so targets all before one big yank.  No splitting the focus a dozen ways, just once with creativity.

 

Alternatively, if it wasn't for the incompetent ass guiding them, they could have had plenty of time to get off the road and hide in the forest until the Whitecloaks had passed.

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Maximillion

[KakitaOCU]

7 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

Alternatively, if it wasn't for the incompetent ass guiding them, they could have had plenty of time to get off the road and hide in the forest until the Whitecloaks had passed.

 

There's several things wrong with your analysis there.

First, Lan was constantly tracking backwards to make sure Trollocs weren't following.  Looping forward was a secondary thing.

Second: Lan comes up while the WCs are no where near and gives warning, exactly what you're claiming he didn't do.

Third: There is plenty of time to get off the road.  The scene from his warning to their arrival is 15 seconds and there's at least one time skip there as when she is first warning the group you can see the road ahead curves to the right.  Then it cuts to them walking a straight path that then curves to the left.  So at least a minute has passed there.  They could have hidden and Moraine instead chose to talk them through. 

[Maximillion]

18 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

There's several things wrong with your analysis there.

First, Lan was constantly tracking backwards to make sure Trollocs weren't following.  Looping forward was a secondary thing.

Second: Lan comes up while the WCs are no where near and gives warning, exactly what you're claiming he didn't do.

Third: There is plenty of time to get off the road.  The scene from his warning to their arrival is 15 seconds and there's at least one time skip there as when she is first warning the group you can see the road ahead curves to the right.  Then it cuts to them walking a straight path that then curves to the left.  So at least a minute has passed there.  They could have hidden and Moraine instead chose to talk them through. 

 

Unlikely they CHOSE to have the confrontation.

It's just another example of Lan failing.

Sure we can explain why, but the explanations of his failures will take up an entire book on their own by the time the season 1 is over.

 

[KakitaOCU]

9 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

Unlikely they CHOSE to have the confrontation.

It's just another example of Lan failing.

Sure we can explain why, but the explanations of his failures will take up an entire book on their own by the time the season 1 is over.

 

Again, Lan rides up with them no where in sight.  Moraine's speech to their introduction is plenty long on its own AND there's a discretion cut where time has clearly passed.  

I'm not explaining justification for a failure.  I'm flat out saying Moraine was given advance notice and chose to go through instead of hiding to the side.  There was time to have done that.

I get it from the other thread.  In your mind unless Lan moves faster than the eye can follow, deflecting all blows and taking down all enemies while never ever have any weakness, he's a failure.  But that doesn't actually match with the character or with the scene you're unhappy with.

[Maximillion]

3 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Again, Lan rides up with them no where in sight.  Moraine's speech to their introduction is plenty long on its own AND there's a discretion cut where time has clearly passed.  

I'm not explaining justification for a failure.  I'm flat out saying Moraine was given advance notice and chose to go through instead of hiding to the side.  There was time to have done that.

I get it from the other thread.  In your mind unless Lan moves faster than the eye can follow, deflecting all blows and taking down all enemies while never ever have any weakness, he's a failure.  But that doesn't actually match with the character or with the scene you're unhappy with.

 

 

Yes, Lan failed again... why he failed is neither here nor there, but if there is a wrong decision to make, Lan is the man to make it.

 

Your idea that they chose to run into the Whitecloaks is something you made up.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Maximillion

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

Your idea that they chose to run into the Whitecloaks is something you made up

They were on a road.

WC's like that probably had scouts in front and to the sides of where they were travelling. 

 

We know WCs are dangerous, but Dumb.

 

If you had to choose between slowing down to go around WC's, only to have Trollocs come up your rear, or talk your way through WC's, potentially allowing the WC's to distract the Trollocs as you bluff your way past them... The choice isn't that hard to make.

 

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

Your idea that they chose to run into the Whitecloaks is something you made up.

 

No.  It's my read of the situation given the facts of him giving advance warning and at least a minute passing before they show up and Moraine choosing to give lectures instead of drag them into the trees.

And as Sinister said, that's not even taking into account that I got a pretty clear indication that Moraine was deliberately trying to send them where they could run into trollocs and provide an additional buffer.

Here's the thing about any explanation I offer.  If I had to think on it and twist myself around to get there I don't share it.  But if it comes to me in the course of a few seconds then it's likely not something that takes special thought to get to.

[Sabio]

I think the part where the Aes Sedai didn't feel in danger enough to use the power was when Mat fought the Seachean when they were looking for Tuon.

 

Moiraine took out a hundred or so trollocs, so a couple dozen of White cloaks should of been no issue.  My guess is with Moiraine being injured would have them thinking if she was Aes Sedai then she could just of healed herself etc.  I'm pretty sure their understanding of what is possible with the power is way off.  Also seems like color shifting cloaks are not in the series so no worry about it being founs.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Sabio

[JaimAybara]

I’m just mad that Whitecloaks get cool stashes but Thom does not. I wanted a Sam Elliott, Tom Selleck, or Kurt Russell stash for Thom.

Edited November 27, 2021 by JaimAybara

[Sabio]

Thom seems too much like Liam Neeson and less like the suave gleeman.  I think Kurt Russell Thom would of been great.

[Daenelia]

I think Thom not having a moustache is one of my favourite changes ? ... I was much much younger when I read the books. And I did not fancy Thom then, too old. but ... I caught up with him ? (Actually, I kinda overtook him, tbf). But now, he is exactly the right age and exactly fanciable enough for me.

 

Do you know how much food and drink gets trapped in moustaches? Hm? And how few men are hygienic enough to wash them properly? Sounds like WC to me. Not Thom.

 

I dont think I've seen enough of the WC in the series to determine if they are bad written. But their evil facial hair is spot on.

[Scarloc99]

On 11/24/2021 at 10:07 PM, JJLXL said:

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Ok, the burning scene was fine.  You can explain away why the Aes Sedai didn't fight her way out.

 

The scene with Moiraine was either terribly written or there have been big changes.  Maybe both? 

 

First of all, White Cloaks would recognize(at the very least) Aes Sedai agelessness.  The fact that they didn't(Valda especially) is proof of bad writing or agelessness is totally out. 

 

Second, they would recognize a Warder traveling with his Aes Sedai.  This could be explained away I guess, so not a huge deal.

 

Third, and my biggest critique.  White Cloaks are kind of like Hyenas.  Generally speaking they're a bit cowardly on their own, but ferocious in numbers.  They clearly had the upper hand with the Dragon troop.  Why wouldn't Valda have simply asked Moiraine if she were Aes Sedai?  She couldn't lie, and if she stalled with a wordy answer, they would have seized them all. Bad writing or??  If there were any suspicions whatsoever, why wouldn't White Cloaks simply ask the woman if she is Aes Sedai?

 

 

Rafe has said wait and find out, people are jumping on the first intro and proclaiming it is all wrong, for the non book reader those 2 scenes do 3 things, they explain that whitecloaks hunt aes sedai, they show the rule on lying being put into action and it shows that there are factions in the whitecloaks. 
 

Do those of us who know the books understand the other intricacies, yes, does the non viewer need exposition explaining away all that information, no. We have hours of TV to come and Rafe has said season 2 and 3 is where white cloaks will really be explored, so let’s wait and find out. 
 

Show don’t tell is a principle rule of storytelling, there will be things that make you go, wait, what, but are set up to allow the rules of the world to be shown in practice. So far Rafe is doing a great job of avoiding Morraine becoming exposition lady, something I was really afraid of. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Sir_Charrid

[phoenixtrinity]

22 hours ago, Maximillion said:

 

Alternatively, if it wasn't for the incompetent ass guiding them, they could have had plenty of time to get off the road and hide in the forest until the Whitecloaks had passed.

 

Aren't you the same person who pointed out the "terrible" writing in every other episode? Are you saying you'd rather watch scenes of Moiraine and co hiding in the woods while the Whitecloaks pass, with likely little to no contribution to the story? This would do nothing to show the confidence of Moiraine, the distastefulness of the White Cloaks, the moral quandries behind the Whitecloak leader and the Questioner (sorry, I can't think of their names atm), or the use of the 3 Oaths.

[nsmallw]

On 11/24/2021 at 5:07 PM, JJLXL said:

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Ok, the burning scene was fine.  You can explain away why the Aes Sedai didn't fight her way out.

 

The scene with Moiraine was either terribly written or there have been big changes.  Maybe both? 

 

First of all, White Cloaks would recognize(at the very least) Aes Sedai agelessness.  The fact that they didn't(Valda especially) is proof of bad writing or agelessness is totally out. 

 

Second, they would recognize a Warder traveling with his Aes Sedai.  This could be explained away I guess, so not a huge deal.

 

Third, and my biggest critique.  White Cloaks are kind of like Hyenas.  Generally speaking they're a bit cowardly on their own, but ferocious in numbers.  They clearly had the upper hand with the Dragon troop.  Why wouldn't Valda have simply asked Moiraine if she were Aes Sedai?  She couldn't lie, and if she stalled with a wordy answer, they would have seized them all. Bad writing or??  If there were any suspicions whatsoever, why wouldn't White Cloaks simply ask the woman if she is Aes Sedai?

 

 

Aes Sedai agelessness has been eliminated from the tv show along with warder cloaks, so there wouldn't be any real way for the WC to recognize Moriaine and Lan as anything other than a noble and his guard. 

[JaimAybara]

On 11/24/2021 at 2:07 PM, JJLXL said:

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Ok, the burning scene was fine.  You can explain away why the Aes Sedai didn't fight her way out.

 

The scene with Moiraine was either terribly written or there have been big changes.  Maybe both? 

 

First of all, White Cloaks would recognize(at the very least) Aes Sedai agelessness.  The fact that they didn't(Valda especially) is proof of bad writing or agelessness is totally out. 

 

Second, they would recognize a Warder traveling with his Aes Sedai.  This could be explained away I guess, so not a huge deal.

 

Third, and my biggest critique.  White Cloaks are kind of like Hyenas.  Generally speaking they're a bit cowardly on their own, but ferocious in numbers.  They clearly had the upper hand with the Dragon troop.  Why wouldn't Valda have simply asked Moiraine if she were Aes Sedai?  She couldn't lie, and if she stalled with a wordy answer, they would have seized them all. Bad writing or??  If there were any suspicions whatsoever, why wouldn't White Cloaks simply ask the woman if she is Aes Sedai?

 

 

This to me was what I interpreted as the Whitecloak split. It showed kindness from the other leader who actually told them to go get healed by an Aes Sedai and I kinda felt some undercurrents. I think they are just showing how there are factions within the Whitecloak ranks. This was also necessary because there are good Whitecloaks in the book so it is nice they didn’t just make all of them evil point blank. 

[flinn]

 I have no issues with what the Whitecloak meeting accomplished, I have an issue with the stupid, lazy writing to get them there.

 

 Lan is a secret service agent and Moiraine is the president. Blundering into a group of whitecloaks is lazy, stupid writing.

 There are hundreds of ways where they could have met up with WCs without making Lan worthless again.

[Skipp]

36 minutes ago, flinn said:

 I have no issues with what the Whitecloak meeting accomplished, I have an issue with the stupid, lazy writing to get them there.

 

 Lan is a secret service agent and Moiraine is the president. Blundering into a group of whitecloaks is lazy, stupid writing.

 There are hundreds of ways where they could have met up with WCs without making Lan worthless again.

They didn't blunder into them.  The path they were on was a narrow forest road with rather steep slopes on either side.  Lan was able to provide enough warning to have Moiraine hide her ring and prepare for the encounter.  All of this while, presumably also scouting behind them watching for the Trollocs.

 

It certainly would have been worse had the Whitecloaks got a glimpse of them trying to lead their horses up the hills away from the road.