How did the show hold up for you?

[DojoToad]

41 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Or....he made a good show despite the strictures.  The audience knows exactly as much about the magic system as it needs to know to understand the story as it has been presented on screen so far. They certainly know more than we readers did when we finished EOTW. That's all they need to know at this point.  They learn more later.

Good point.  That's part of my problem. We were fed information as we needed it in the books and it worked beautifully.  But in the show I already know all that so...

 

Personal issue.  Show was not made for me.  Just have a hard time not knowing what I know.  Different medium, different rules.

[Cipher]

On 3/25/2023 at 8:07 AM, WheelofJuke said:

FWIW, I always pictured Julian's hat as a fez as well. 

OMG, I haven't seen any Doctor Who since the very early days of the fifth doctor...don't even know what to think! :eek:

That was a Taraboner hat he wears later.  When he first came on the scene in Tear he wears a different hat.

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 3/7/2023 at 11:33 AM, DojoToad said:

Case in point - some of my favorite movies are: Shaun of the Dead, Napoleon Dynamite, Equilibrium, Last Samurai, etc.  Others will think some or all of them are trash - maybe for some of the same reasons you outlined above.

 

 

Agree with you on all of those movies.  Even though they are all flawed they tried to take an interesting concept and go with it.  They took an original idea and pushed their vision with passion.  Equilibrium is criminally under rated and I laughed a lot a Napoleon.  

 

I don't think your comparison works fully for WoT TV though.  There was an interesting concept, but instead of using it they decided shelve it and write their own uninteresting one.  I don't see the passion for the story with this creative team.  I do see somewhat of a passion for them to tell their own different story.  

 

Your comment on some people will just devour any content is spot on though.

[Cipher]

2 minutes ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

Agree with you on all of those movies.  Even though they are all flawed they tried to take an interesting concept and go with it.  They took an original idea and pushed their vision with passion.  Equilibrium is criminally under rated and I laughed a lot a Napoleon.  

 

I don't think your comparison works fully for WoT TV though.  There was an interesting concept, but instead of using it they decided shelve it and write their own uninteresting one.  I don't see the passion for the story with this creative team.  I do see somewhat of a passion for them to tell their own different story.  

 

Your comment on some people will just devour any content is spot on though.

But use characters beloved by fans of the source material and use them for their own purposes.

[Vartija]

17 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

I don't think your comparison works fully for WoT TV though.  There was an interesting concept, but instead of using it they decided shelve it and write their own uninteresting one.  I don't see the passion for the story with this creative team.  I do see somewhat of a passion for them to tell their own different story.  

I agree with this (especially the bolded). I got the feeling they didn't fully trust the source material. It especially shows in the small changes that weren't due to budget like changing Mat & Perrin's family dynamics and darkening the story a bit from the start. Also it felt like the writing was at its sharpest when they were adding their own stuff into the story, like episode 4. Many disliked the Stepin arc because it took screentime away from the main characters but I got the feeling that's what the writers enjoyed exploring the most.   

[WoTwasThat]

On 4/16/2023 at 9:04 AM, SinisterDeath said:

This talking point keeps coming up and it's simply not true. The tv show didn't merge the one power into a single power, they just didn't explain the intricacies of the one power in the first season of the live action show.

 

The two halves of the one power are briefly talked about in the animated shorts that come with the TV series on Amazon. They are cannon to the tv show.

“It’s explained in the animated short” and “unreliable narrator” (an Aes Sedai, btw) are two of my all time favorite excuses for this show butchering the core source material. Right up there with “because Covid” and “they only had 8 episodes.” And let’s add “you just don’t like LBGTQ+” to the list. 

[SinisterDeath]

24 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

“It’s explained in the animated short” and “unreliable narrator” (an Aes Sedai, btw) are two of my all time favorite excuses for this show butchering the core source material. Right up there with “because Covid” and “they only had 8 episodes.” And let’s add “you just don’t like LBGTQ+” to the list. 

The animated shorts are cannon to the show, you may disagree but they are. They're also arguably the best part of the show.

 

Covid, is actually a really good explanation for how it impacted the number of people that could appear on screen. The alternative would to have been to wait until 2023 to release season 1.

And the "You don't like the LGBTQ+" is only a factor, when someone starts going on about how the show is being ruined by "the gay agenda". 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

The animated shorts are cannon to the show, you may disagree but they are. They're also arguably the best part of the show.

 

Unfortunately, I signed up for a live action show - not animated shorts.

 

Too bad they spent all those millions on the show but the cartoon ended up better. 🤣

Edited April 20, 2023 by DojoToad

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Too bad they spent all those millions on the show but the cartoon ended up better. 🤣

You laugh, but an animated series would have arguably been the best medium for the Wheel of Time.

[Guire]

50 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

You laugh, but an animated series would have arguably been the best medium for the Wheel of Time.

This 100%.  After watching 3 or 4 well done animated shows like Vox Machina and Arcane, I think animation is the only medium that would have been affordable enough to really do it justice.  We need 12 seasons of 15 episodes.  

[expat]

5 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

“It’s explained in the animated short” and “unreliable narrator” (an Aes Sedai, btw) are two of my all time favorite excuses for this show butchering the core source material. Right up there with “because Covid” and “they only had 8 episodes.” And let’s add “you just don’t like LBGTQ+” to the list. 

I can understand not fully explaining the magic system in season 1.  

 

1.  It's not important for the first season, so you can save some time by delaying the explanation till it's needed in season 2. Not explaining it is NOT the same as changing it.  Until and unless some essential things (e.g., like identity of Dragon, magic system) are actually changed, fears of possible changes come across as chicken little.

2.  The explanation is going to be a pure exposition dump, requiring someone to talk for several minutes.  There is no way to do it visually like the Stepin arc showing the warder bond in the first season.  Season 2 has a great framing opportunity in the girls WH training, making it feel integral to the story since the audience will be learning about it just as the girls are.

3.  It is not a topic that would normally be discussed, so outside of two season 1 opportunities, it would feel very forced, even as a couple of throwaway lines.

4.  There are logical reason for not doing it in the two available instances:

     4a:  The first instance is when Moiraine is introducing Egwene to the one power - there is simply not enough time available in that episode to fit in the exposition.  That episode arguably had to shortchange SL already due to lack of time, using several more minutes for (unneeded at the time) exposition would make if even worse.  They would have had to cut things they wanted enough to keep in that they shortchanged SL.

     4b: At the start of episode 8 when Rand was identified as the Dragon.  While episode 8 stunk, it's not good TV to have a detailed exposition dump at the beginning of your last episode.  At this point, things should be moving at high speed and slowing down for exposition is counterproductive.

 

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

You laugh, but an animated series would have arguably been the best medium for the Wheel of Time.

I do laugh.  Because we didn't get an animated series - we got shorts in order to explain the show...

[SinisterDeath]

54 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I do laugh.  Because we didn't get an animated series - we got shorts in order to explain the show...

The Matrix got "animated shorts", to explain the machine uprising.
 

A lot of movies and TV shows have "extra features" on their DVD, they include behind the scenes footage, and sometimes they include extra stuff that expands the lore in some way.

Hell, look at Lord of the Rings if you want to get into "extra features"...

 

In fact, the Wheel of Time (and the lord of the rings!) also have supplementary books (BWB & Companion) to explain the books. Should we say the books are bad, because need books to explain the books?

[DojoToad]

38 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The Matrix got "animated shorts", to explain the machine uprising.
 

A lot of movies and TV shows have "extra features" on their DVD, they include behind the scenes footage, and sometimes they include extra stuff that expands the lore in some way.

Hell, look at Lord of the Rings if you want to get into "extra features"...

 

In fact, the Wheel of Time (and the lord of the rings!) also have supplementary books (BWB & Companion) to explain the books. Should we say the books are bad, because need books to explain the books?

Difference is that I didn't need supplementary material to enjoy The Matrix (movie) , LotR (books and movie), or WoT (books).  Supplements and features may add to enjoyment and understanding, but the originals all stood on their own merit and were great without additions.

 

Unlike the animated shorts for WoT which you just said were arguably better than the show itself.

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by DojoToad

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Unlike the animated shorts for WoT which you just said were arguably better than the show itself.

Yes, and that goes back to animated adaptation is just better for this book series, than a live action version.
 

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

difference is that I didn't need supplementary material to enjoy The Matrix (movie) , LotR (books and movie), or WoT (books).

And a lot of people didn't need the animated shorts to enjoy this TV show, hell many don't even know they exist.

To add to this, the book purists may derive more joy out of the tv series by watching the shorts, because the shorts will massage their fears that the show is changing to much. 

Example: 
IF you dislike the TV Show because it didn't explain what Saidar & Saidin are, and thusly fear it is getting rid of the two halves of the one power. Watching the shorts may allow you to enjoy the show because now you know they aren't removing Saidar & Saidin.

For me, it is not a failure of the show to include extra material in the form of 2-3 minute long exposition dumps that better explain the intricacies of the world building that might not appeal to the average viewer.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yes, and that goes back to animated adaptation is just better for this book series, than a live action version.
 

And a lot of people didn't need the animated shorts to enjoy this TV show, hell many don't even know they exist.

To add to this, the book purists may derive more joy out of the tv series by watching the shorts, because the shorts will massage their fears that the show is changing to much. 

Example: 
IF you dislike the TV Show because it didn't explain what Saidar & Saidin are, and thusly fear it is getting rid of the two halves of the one power. Watching the shorts may allow you to enjoy the show because now you know they aren't removing Saidar & Saidin.

For me, it is not a failure of the show to include extra material in the form of 2-3 minute long exposition dumps that better explain the intricacies of the world building that might not appeal to the average viewer.

The shorts are a supplement - or as you say, an exposition dump.  As much joy as the book purists may derive from the shorts they are not an adaptation of the books.  Maybe an animated show is what some of us needed.  But we didn't get that, nor did we get a show we enjoyed.

 

I don't take it personally that some people like the show with or without the shorts.  But some seem to get very defensive when I/we say we didn't care for what Rafe and team produced for Amazon - and for me at least, it has less to do with how true the show was to the books and more to do writing and other production qualities.

[WoTwasThat]

12 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

The animated shorts are cannon to the show, you may disagree but they are. They're also arguably the best part of the show.

 

Covid, is actually a really good explanation for how it impacted the number of people that could appear on screen. The alternative would to have been to wait until 2023 to release season 1.

And the "You don't like the LGBTQ+" is only a factor, when someone starts going on about how the show is being ruined by "the gay agenda". 

No offense, truly, but you sound like you’re making devil’s advocate arguments at this point. This is weak sauce. 
 

1. It does not matter whether an animated short is “cannon” or not. Only weird ubernerds care about “cannon.”  If you have to point to an animated clip to explain a core concept that you completely butchered in eight hours of showtime, that’s crap storytelling. Period.

 

2. There were plenty of scenes featuring scads of actors. There is absolutely no factual basis for the argument that Covid is why Rand and Mo set off alone into the Blight. Or for any of the other truly terrible plot decisions throughout the series. To my recollection, Covid protocols have only officially been offered as an excuse for one crappy scene with the Shienarans defending the wall.

 

3. I don’t think it’s reasonable to criticize people for noticing the clear LGBTQ+ agenda that is deliberately peppered throughout the show. This is classic face-tattoo syndrome. “Why are you looking at my face tattoo? Because you have a face tattoo.” (I.e. being mad at people for noticing something you wanted people to notice.)

[WoTwasThat]

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

For me, it is not a failure of the show to include extra material in the form of 2-3 minute long exposition dumps that better explain the intricacies of the world building that might not appeal to the average viewer.

One of the primary narrative purposes of Moraine is to serve as a walking exposition dump. Just like Gandalf.

 

The bifurcation of the One Power, tainting of Saidin, and visibility of weaves could have easily been explained by Moraine in about 60-90 seconds early in the show while she tests Egwene.

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, WoTwasThat said:

No offense, truly, but you sound like you’re making devil’s advocate arguments at this point. This is weak sauce. 
 

1. It does not matter whether an animated short is “cannon” or not. Only weird ubernerds care about “cannon.”  If you have to point to an animated clip to explain a core concept that you completely butchered in eight hours of showtime, that’s crap storytelling. Period.

 

2. There were plenty of scenes featuring scads of actors. There is absolutely no factual basis for the argument that Covid is why Rand and Mo set off alone into the Blight. Or for any of the other truly terrible plot decisions throughout the series. To my recollection, Covid protocols have only officially been offered as an excuse for one crappy scene with the Shienarans defending the wall.

 

3. I don’t think it’s reasonable to criticize people for noticing the clear LGBTQ+ agenda that is deliberately peppered throughout the show. This is classic face-tattoo syndrome. “Why are you looking at my face tattoo? Because you have a face tattoo.” (I.e. being mad at people for noticing something you wanted people to notice.)

 

1. What Sinister is saying, I believe, is that they writers chose to not introduce certain world building aspects in season 1 as there is a better time for that in season 2(we presume).  But for the "ubernerds" who want that world building immediately they chose to have a series of animated shorts that do that expansion immediately.

 

2. Covid dictated the way many of the season in the final 2 episodes were shot.  No one has said that Moiraine and Rand going to the blight alone was because of covid.  But it has been mentioned that was written the way it was to spread hero moments to other characters instead of having them stand around and do nothing. Althought that is kinda what Perrins moment became, who knows what we would have saw if they hadn't lost an actor.

 

3. So the fact that there are LGBTQ+ characters in the show, 1 pair(that actually had a relationship in the books), a Green Aes Sedai and her 2 two warders being in a relationship(which is something that happens in the books if not explicitly the same dynamic) plus a mention from Dana assuming Mat and Rand were together.  This is worth your time to criticize?

[WhiteVeils]

It's almost like gay people actually existing is LGBT agenda.  :shrug:

[mogi68]

On 4/16/2023 at 11:10 AM, SinisterDeath said:

Ever heard of an unreliable narrator?
 

 

Yes, it's called the writing team!

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, mogi68 said:

 

Yes, it's called the writing team!

No.

 

It shouldn't be that hard to understand the concept that characters can simulateously tell the truth, while the knowledge they have is false... Which is literally a theme of the books...

 

Then again, there are a staggering number of people that believe everything they see and hear on TV, and can't identify false information (propaganda) when they see it, while also believing the other side is just a woke gay agenda...