How did the show hold up for you?

[VooDooNut]

42 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Will such judgement (if carried out by sufficient numbers of consumers) have any financial consequence for the studio/director?  Will people cancel streaming subscriptions as a result?  If not then it will continue.

 

The main societal problem with substituting a body double without flaws (or using CGI to edit out any flaws) is that it continues the promotion of unrealistic standards of appearance with impacts for those who strive for these and cannot achieve them (such as eating disorders).   Balancing the individual freedom to strip for the camera if the person genuinely wants to with the greater good is a big problem.  

I feel like we are discussing at least 4 different points of this topic so I'll list them:

1.Artfulness (or lackthereof) nudity/violence in cinematography

2. Power/influence gained by actors from participating in nude scenes (willingly or coersively)

3. Audience judgement on the use of nudity/violence in a story and its impact on the success of that story as a production

4. Discoherency between depictions in film and reality leading to unhealthy perspectives/conclusions in the minds of the viewers

 

1. This is a matter of taste, as all art is. But I'd argue that it takes a cultivated mind to value artfulness as opposed to shock value (violence) or sex (unmotivated nudity)

2. Those artists that choose to be nude in film are typically more successful than their counterparts. If an artist stands to gain a great deal of success by "choosing" to be nude in a production, it seems to me that they don't really have a choice, since their choice is tied to their financial well-being.

3. Will it have an impact large enough to effect financial success? Probably not. Should that mean we (few) shouldn't protest bad decisions (obtuse use of violence/sex) in film? I don't think so, no.

4. I think this becomes a problem with overconsumption of any media. At some point you have to determine where your self-perception/influence in coming from and take a healthy step back from anything that is overpowering your ability to think independently.

 

IMO and all that

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

My point was more that unless those who consider it to be a problem take what action they can (e.g. cancelling subscriptions or not paying for such media) merely protesting will be without impact smacks of hypocrisy (in which regard I would be found wanting as well ... so mea culpa and all that).  

[lordofsoup]

I originally stopped a few episodes in but I had the misfortune of visiting relatives for Christmas, so I watched the rest of it.  Tarwin’s gap was possibly the worst interpretation of a piece of literature that I have ever seen.  I am very disappointed.  

[DojoToad]

55 minutes ago, lordofsoup said:

I originally stopped a few episodes in but I had the misfortune of visiting relatives for Christmas, so I watched the rest of it.  Tarwin’s gap was possibly the worst interpretation of a piece of literature that I have ever seen.  I am very disappointed.  

I managed to avoid episodes 5-8.  Tarwin Gap was horrifying enough reading its description here.  Glad I didn't actually see it.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Well I have been away for a while.  Between Thanksgiving and Christmas I did a head to head binge comparison of Rings of Power and Wheel of Time.  As a reminder I am a big fan of both book series but have  previously given Jordan the nod because of his more detailed world building in terms of exploring various cultures.  I also very much appreciate  his inclusion/exploration of strong female characters.  This watching of Wheel of Time season 1 was my fourth.  The Rings of Power was the second.  Interestingly enough this watching of Wheel of Time blunted some of my previous problems with the adaption in terms of its departure from the book tale.  I feel that this was probably because, at my advanced age, there is some stronger form of recency bias at work.    

 

However, in comparison with Rings of Power, the plot was much more difficult to swallow in spite of having excellent source material for the screenplay.  Rings of Power on the other hand had to make up most of their story.  Again it isn't so much about deviations from the original it is, can I believe that the characters would behave as they do.  Matt turning around at the waygate is a prime example.   The GGI was better in the Rings of Power but given the difference in budget between the two shows that only makes sense. WOT was not bad mostly.    I felt the characters were better developed in Rings of Power.  That is one of the worst things and the place where the departures from the original story was still a sharp stick to the eye.  A lot of the problem seems traceable to the decision to widen the dragon reborn candidate list.  So much of the character development was on feints  and misdirection.  

 

In summary, I am looking forward to season 2 of Rings of Power far more than season 2 of Wheel of Time.  I have, upon my rewatch, decided to actually commit to at least 3 episodes of the new WOT season whereas before I wasn't so sure I would.   Hopefully the writing team will have realized that the strategy should be to leverage the strengths of the source material and focus on tightening up the story to fit the series outline and adapt to the screen.  Making up new stories and character arcs clearly isn't the  writing team's strong point.  

Don’t know that the writing team has a strong point, but hopefully they learned from what did/didn’t work in S1. Everyone can improve 

[phanooglestixs]

I am holding on until everything that happens the first time at the Stone of Tear.  If there have been too many changes from the source material by those scenes then I will probably need to give up because it will turn into the Eragon movie all over again where so much will need to be changed that the end product will no longer be recognizable.  And enduring anymore corruption of my favorite world will be too much of a burden for me to find enough enjoyment to justify it.

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, phanooglestixs said:

I am holding on until everything that happens the first time at the Stone of Tear.  If there have been too many changes from the source material by those scenes then I will probably need to give up because it will turn into the Eragon movie all over again where so much will need to be changed that the end product will no longer be recognizable.  And enduring anymore corruption of my favorite world will be too much of a burden for me to find enough enjoyment to justify it.

End of the day as long as by the end of book 3 (season 2 if Rafe is right).
We have the main characters in tear

The girls are hunting the black sisters, 

The Seanchan have been introduced, the horn blown and Egwene captured and freed. 
Perrin and Faile (although no faile till season 3 apparently suggesting no Perrin as wolf saving her from the dream), are set up to go back to Eomonds field 

Mat is free of the dagger 

Rand has the sword, the heron marks and the wound

The correct forsaken have beer ntriduced/killed (or are not appearing at all)

The seeds of discontent have started feeding into the white tower. 
 

There might be one or 2 more key things we need the story to have but i think that covers most of the key things at that point. 
 

Then we will be where we need to be for the proper story to start in book 4. Everything in books 1-3 always felt like RJ finding his feet with the world, the characters and how he wanted to tell his story. It is all setup with so much repetition 
 

I don’t care about how they get there how much of the books they rework and change. There is so much repetition of story idea in books 1-3 so much that could have been cut or edited differently if RJ hadn’t felt he had write generic fantasy before being allowed to find his own voice. Just get us to the shadow rising where the real meat of the story proper begins. 
 

I will caveat that to say, I will accept drastic changes as long as they are written, acted, edited and shot well with good effects etc. 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

 

I will caveat that to say, I will accept drastic changes as long as they are written, acted, edited and shot well with good effects etc. 

Agreed, but what from S1 makes you think that Rafe and company can pull that off?

[DaddyFinn]

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

End of the day as long as by the end of book 3 (season 2 if Rafe is right).
We have the main characters in tear

The girls are hunting the black sisters, 

The Seanchan have been introduced, the horn blown and Egwene captured and freed. 
Perrin and Faile (although no faile till season 3 apparently suggesting no Perrin as wolf saving her from the dream), are set up to go back to Eomonds field 

Mat is free of the dagger 

Rand has the sword, the heron marks and the wound

The correct forsaken have beer ntriduced/killed (or are not appearing at all)

The seeds of discontent have started feeding into the white tower. 
 

There might be one or 2 more key things we need the story to have but i think that covers most of the key things at that point. 
 

Then we will be where we need to be for the proper story to start in book 4. Everything in books 1-3 always felt like RJ finding his feet with the world, the characters and how he wanted to tell his story. It is all setup with so much repetition 
 

I don’t care about how they get there how much of the books they rework and change. There is so much repetition of story idea in books 1-3 so much that could have been cut or edited differently if RJ hadn’t felt he had write generic fantasy before being allowed to find his own voice. Just get us to the shadow rising where the real meat of the story proper begins. 
 

I will caveat that to say, I will accept drastic changes as long as they are written, acted, edited and shot well with good effects etc. 

I've seen suggestions that Callandor&Tear won't happen in S2. That storyline could be merged with Sammael&Illian because we don't spend that much time in Tear.

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Agreed, but what from S1 makes you think that Rafe and company can pull that off?

I am a glass half full guy, they get season 2 to show they can improve. I like to try and think the best of people and situations. Season 1 for me wasn’t the awful thing others thought it was. 

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I've seen suggestions that Callandor&Tear won't happen in S2. That storyline could be merged with Sammael&Illian because we don't spend that much time in Tear.

I suppose you could end season 2 on the cliffhanger of the characters in tear and seeing the girls being captured then season 3 opens with the falling of tear. 

[DojoToad]

46 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I am a glass half full guy, they get season 2 to show they can improve. I like to try and think the best of people and situations. Season 1 for me wasn’t the awful thing others thought it was. 

Thinking the best is great in a new situation with little or no information. But I prefer to judge based on past performance. We have plenty to go on based on a full season. 
 

But glad it wasn’t the awful thing for you that it was for me. 

[DojoToad]

18 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I suppose you could end season 2 on the cliffhanger of the characters in tear and seeing the girls being captured then season 3 opens with the falling of tear. 

Hope not. Prefer my cliffhangers within the season not between. But not my circus…

[Scarloc99]

20 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Hope not. Prefer my cliffhangers within the season not between. But not my circus…

I prefer not to have that end season cliffhanger as well, it feels very 2000’s, but if Rafe has said tear is in season 3 and season 2 also has stuff from book 3 I am struggling to see what bits of book 3 it makes sense to put into season 2 and leave a suitable end point. 

[DaddyFinn]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I prefer not to have that end season cliffhanger as well, it feels very 2000’s, but if Rafe has said tear is in season 3 and season 2 also has stuff from book 3 I am struggling to see what bits of book 3 it makes sense to put into season 2 and leave a suitable end point. 

I don't remember him saying anything of Tear. Maybe S2 climax is Falme and plots from books 2&3 culminate there with some bits reserved for later seasons? Tear could be the finale of S4/5

[WhiteVeils]

I think it's possible we do get Tear in the very last episode, if Ishamael flees to Tear to get Callendor and Rand follows, or if Falme was a trap to get Rand to chase him to Tear to get Callendor so Ishamael can take it from him. If that were the case, Tear shows up only from the inside as a single room with Callendor, and we wouldn't see sets of it outside.  

It's equally likely that Tear isn't there at all this season.

[DojoToad]

25 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

I think it's possible we do get Tear in the very last episode, if Ishamael flees to Tear to get Callendor and Rand follows, or if Falme was a trap to get Rand to chase him to Tear to get Callendor so Ishamael can take it from him. If that were the case, Tear shows up only from the inside as a single room with Callendor, and we wouldn't see sets of it outside.  

It's equally likely that Tear isn't there at all this season.

Perrin releasing Gaul and the intro of dark hounds happens before Tear. Would really like to see both of those whenever Tear happens. 

[WhiteVeils]

Perrin releasing Gaul happens this season we know (though it may not be Gaul...it may be Aviendha.)  Introducing dark hounds in /my/ version of S2 (which covers the books as closely as possible without consideration for season length, but also removing duplicate beats between books 2 and 3) doesn't happen until the throne room of Tear. They aren't necessary and may be saved as a creature upgrade for S3.

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Perrin releasing Gaul happens this season we know (though it may not be Gaul...it may be Aviendha.)  Introducing dark hounds in /my/ version of S2 (which covers the books as closely as possible without consideration for season length, but also removing duplicate beats between books 2 and 3) doesn't happen until the throne room of Tear. They aren't necessary and may be saved as a creature upgrade for S3.

Has to be Gaul, his story and perrins are so interlinked in the books, I think we get the same Avi intro as the books, the scene of the women killing the fade when the aiel burst in to saved them is too cinematic to leave on the page. As is the scene of the Women meeting the aiel in what is effectively (to them) a flat field, to then realise there are several aiel just a few meters away. It also feeds into the Elayne and Avi story. 
 

If Tear is season 4 then that is far far too late in the story. To fit it all in Tear/callandor has to be end season 2, or episode 1 season 3, now like I say a cliffhanger season 2 ending leading immediately into the battle for tear, maybe works and drives viewers to season 3? But equally you could get to Falme in 5 episodes and then get to tear in 2 for the final fight in the 8th? 

[WhiteVeils]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Has to be Gaul, his story and perrins are so interlinked in the books, I think we get the same Avi intro as the books, the scene of the women killing the fade when the aiel burst in to saved them is too cinematic to leave on the page. As is the scene of the Women meeting the aiel in what is effectively (to them) a flat field, to then realise there are several aiel just a few meters away. It also feeds into the Elayne and Avi story. 
 

If Tear is season 4 then that is far far too late in the story. To fit it all in Tear/callandor has to be end season 2, or episode 1 season 3, now like I say a cliffhanger season 2 ending leading immediately into the battle for tear, maybe works and drives viewers to season 3? But equally you could get to Falme in 5 episodes and then get to tear in 2 for the final fight in the 8th? 

 

There is going to be more compression than you think...I'm sure of that.  The Aiel are entering through Perrin's story, not the girls', at least for this season...we know that for certain based on released info.  Perrin will most likely save Aviendha, or at least will meet her then.  However, we may get Gaul...I hope so.

 

One possibility they can use is they might make Gaul Aviendha's brother, and have him take up Aviendha's debt to Perrin when Aviendha is sent to be a Wise Woman. That means they can introduce Gaul for S3 when he comes to tell Aviendha that she has to go be a Wise Woman.

 

Some of the stories from Tear can be in S2 if they choose to include them, or they can be cut.  Even to keep the same sequence as the books they only need Rand to be in control by the end of the season.  If they don't do Tear like that, they combine Tear and Illian and have Sammael holding Tear and do Tear after Cahrien.

[Guire]

WoT youtubers are consistently saying season 3  will be The Shadow Rising.  That will take a full season.  To get there we are going to get lots of story compressuon and cuts.  I think the alternate spining is going to be even bigger here forward.  Also I think the 5 season plan has probably kicked in since RoP and WoT have not been consensus hits across the board.

[phanooglestixs]

The journey through the parallel world at the start of the hunt, that's probably cut.  So much of that journey is likely going to be condensed, one episode between Fal Dara and Cairhien.  Might cut out Cairhien, the Stedding and go straight to Falme as well.  Most of season 2 will likely focus on the girls, so mostly training at the tower then the journey to and struggle against the Seanchan for episodes 1-4, then a transition episode from books 2 to 3, mountains and travel, Caemlyn(again), Illian and many of the various towns will probably be skipped with 1 stop before Tear and wrapping up season 2.  That is a lot left on the cutting room floor.  As far as the Tear transition from season 2 to season 3, I can see season 2 ending with the fall of the Stone and season 3 starting with the darkspawn attack on the Stone.  They could even condense the journey to Tear, putting the Perrin group with the Egwene group, meeting up on the way south.  Rands journey south needs to stay solo though, they did a decent enough job adding in the terror elements of Ba'Alzamon screwing with them in their sleep (how they handle the mega-important dream realm is going to be a curious hurdle in the future) and Rand has a lot more of that to go through in order to get him in the proper state of mind later on.  Generally, insanity doesnt just happen, it takes work to push someone over the edge into madness, even with spiritually toxic magical energy helping.

Edited January 3, 2023 by phanooglestixs

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, phanooglestixs said:

The journey through the parallel world at the start of the hunt, that's probably cut.

Hopefully so.

 

3 hours ago, phanooglestixs said:

So much of that journey is likely going to be condensed, one episode between Fal Dara and Cairhien.  Might cut out Cairhien, the Stedding and go straight to Falme as well. 

 

Likely - especially with no Thom.

 

3 hours ago, phanooglestixs said:

Most of season 2 will likely focus on the girls, so mostly training at the tower then the journey to and struggle against the Seanchan for episodes 1-4,

 

Focus on the women would not surprise anyone here.

 

3 hours ago, phanooglestixs said:

then a transition episode from books 2 to 3, mountains and travel, Caemlyn(again), Illian and many of the various towns will probably be skipped with 1 stop before Tear and wrapping up season 2.  That is a lot left on the cutting room floor.  As far as the Tear transition from season 2 to season 3, I can see season 2 ending with the fall of the Stone and season 3 starting with the darkspawn attack on the Stone. 

 

Much more satisfactory than a cliffhanger.  Finish one arc, the goal is accomplished, then a new challenge rises.

 

3 hours ago, phanooglestixs said:

They could even condense the journey to Tear, putting the Perrin group with the Egwene group, meeting up on the way south.  Rands journey south needs to stay solo though, they did a decent enough job adding in the terror elements of Ba'Alzamon screwing with them in their sleep (how they handle the mega-important dream realm is going to be a curious hurdle in the future) and Rand has a lot more of that to go through in order to get him in the proper state of mind later on.  Generally, insanity doesnt just happen, it takes work to push someone over the edge into madness, even with spiritually toxic magical energy helping.

I think you might be wrong with what it takes for insanity/madness.  There has already been two miraculous healing bomb events - don't see why Rand can't drop off the edge into madness quickly.  Nynaeve and Egwene have already pulled off the 'impossible' (at the Aes Sedai camp and Fal Dara).  The show needs something they can't do at the drop of a hat without any training - at least if they want to add some credibility to S2.

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, Guire said:

WoT youtubers are consistently saying season 3  will be The Shadow Rising.  That will take a full season.  To get there we are going to get lots of story compressuon and cuts.  I think the alternate spining is going to be even bigger here forward. 

 

I don't watch the youtubers - were any of these folks anywhere near the mark on their predictions for S1?  Just wondering at their track record.

 

6 hours ago, Guire said:

Also I think the 5 season plan has probably kicked in since RoP and WoT have not been consensus hits across the board.

Wow - how is Rafe going to add all his non-canon material in only 5 seasons?  They'll be lucky to reach Dumai's Wells much less the Last Battle.

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Hopefully so.

 

Likely - especially with no Thom.

 

Focus on the women would not surprise anyone here.

 

Much more satisfactory than a cliffhanger.  Finish one arc, the goal is accomplished, then a new challenge rises.

 

I think you might be wrong with what it takes for insanity/madness.  There has already been two miraculous healing bomb events - don't see why Rand can't drop off the edge into madness quickly.  Nynaeve and Egwene have already pulled off the 'impossible' (at the Aes Sedai camp and Fal Dara).  The show needs something they can't do at the drop of a hat without any training - at least if they want to add some credibility to S2.

Nyns driver to becoming an aes sedai, throughout the early books at least, turns into wanting to be able to heal Rand, or at least delay the madness. But I think we can show the start of madness as they do in the books, we know who Lewis Therin is as a character now in season 1 so we can start getting him appearing to Rand much as we see the male channeller talking to himself at the very start. That will be enough to show all is not great with his mind, especially in scenes where we see those Lewis thoughts as internal monologues in the book. In the show we can actually have Lewis there in scene talking to Rand about how Lanfer was always jealous even as she is talking to rand, then, every now and again Rand repeat what Lewis has just said to him?