Will the show be good? Our hopes and concerns

[Skipp]

Now that I think about it they could bring Balthamel back and give him the same story but just have him use the Illusion weave to appear as female.  That could work right?  Or make it a True power illusion or something?  I dunno just a random thought.

[MasterAblar]

4 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Or it is something that the DO did specifically to Halima. But I think your suggestion is more likely though

 

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

Now that I think about it they could bring Balthamel back and give him the same story but just have him use the Illusion weave to appear as female.  That could work right?  Or make it a True power illusion or something?  I dunno just a random thought.

 

Think its best to just remove her to be honest. They end up either really messing with her story or make it very convoluted otherwise. Best to avoid the issue entirely in my opinion.

[Skipp]

Just now, MasterAblar said:

 

 

Think its best to just remove her to be honest. They end up either really messing with her story or make it very convoluted otherwise. Best to avoid the issue entirely in my opinion.

You're not wrong, as has been stated Halima didn't actually accomplish much aside from killing a handful of Aes Sedai.

[Wraith235]

8 minutes ago, Skipp said:

You're not wrong, as has been stated Halima didn't actually accomplish much aside from killing a handful of Aes Sedai.

sadly I think if you remove Halima at this point (which I dont disagree with) that makes everything else so much worse with regards to stuff

[Deadsy]

2 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

sadly I think if you remove Halima at this point (which I dont disagree with) that makes everything else so much worse with regards to stuff

 

What?

[SinisterDeath]

20 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Now that I think about it they could bring Balthamel back and give him the same story but just have him use the Illusion weave to appear as female.  That could work right?  Or make it a True power illusion or something?  I dunno just a random thought.

The DO could put Balthamel's soul into that of a Puppy.

 

17 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Think its best to just remove her to be honest. They end up either really messing with her story or make it very convoluted otherwise. Best to avoid the issue entirely in my opinion.

Wouldn't the correct pronoun for Halima be "he/him", because Balthamel identifies as male? 

On the other hand....  If they actually keep the Halima character, this presents a quandary for using the correct? pronoun & not spoiling the surprise for people.

[Skipp]

4 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

What?

Wraith may be referring to the idea that Halima is the only direct trans representation we have in WoT.  And that removing her would lead to outrage etc etc. 

 

I don't believe this to be an issue because from what I understand Halima is not well thought of in the WoT Trans community as a whole. 

 

But this is just speculation on my part.

[MasterAblar]

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The DO could put Balthamel's soul into that of a Puppy.

 

Wouldn't the correct pronoun for Halima be "he/him", because Balthamel identifies as male? 

On the other hand....  If they actually keep the Halima character, this presents a quandary for using the correct? pronoun & not spoiling the surprise for people.

 

Hell if I know. What do the forsaken say? They're the only one's who know.

[Wraith235]

3 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

What?

it makes everything much worse when you start degendering souls and by extension the OP ... Halima was the Exception and the ONLY exception to a woman channeling the male half .... you remove her and STILL play with that ball .... thats slippery slope with a a deep dark hole 

[Agitel]

I don't know what Jordan intended, but I never took Halima/Aran'gar as an actual allegory for a transgendered person. It's a very literal case of a "man in a woman's body", of course, but I didn't read it as commentary on transgenderism in general.

 

I'm not saying it should therefore be included, though.

[Wraith235]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Wraith may be referring to the idea that Halima is the only direct trans representation we have in WoT.  And that removing her would lead to outrage etc etc. 

 

I don't believe this to be an issue because from what I understand Halima is not well thought of in the WoT Trans community as a whole. 

 

But this is just speculation on my part.

Nah - Making Halima Trans is basically understood and a given - it makes sense 

[Ralph]

9 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

Nah - Making Halima Trans is basically understood and a given - it makes sense 

 

I believe that many (?) trans readers find it offensive that the only "trans" representation is a punishment from the Dark One, and therefore prefer to see it as something else. 

 

Which fits with what has been said many times in various threads that WoT doesn't actually have any gender fluidity or anything other than M/F

Edited November 11, 2021 by Ralph

[Deadsy]

10 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

it makes everything much worse when you start degendering souls and by extension the OP ... Halima was the Exception and the ONLY exception to a woman channeling the male half .... you remove her and STILL play with that ball .... thats slippery slope with a a deep dark hole 

 

 

There's been 0 evidence we'll have men channeling saidar or women channeling saidin or women affected by the taint. I'm not sure why you're basing comments off of a belief we have no evidence of. It's a weird thing to be afraid of and spend so much time talking about.

[MasterAblar]

8 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

I believe that many (?) trans readers find it offensive that the only "trans" representation is a punishment from the Dark One, and therefore prefer to see it as something else. 

 

Which fits with what has been said many times in various threads that WoT doesn't actually have any gender fluidity or anything other than M/F

 

I agree there is no gender fluidity portrayed in the book. But I didn't see the world as it was precluding it.

[Wraith235]

5 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

There's been 0 evidence we'll have men channeling saidar or women channeling saidin or women affected by the taint. I'm not sure why you're basing comments off of a belief we have no evidence of. It's a weird thing to be afraid of and spend so much time talking about.

the Door is Open to it is all I have asserted based on de-gendering souls 
Ive never said that it will happen ... I have stated that its a concern 
Ive also said that I could be Wrong and if so I'll be happy to eat my words 


 

[Wraith235]

30 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

I believe that many (?) trans readers find it offensive that the only "trans" representation is a punishment from the Dark One, and therefore prefer to see it as something else. 

 

Which fits with what has been said many times in various threads that WoT doesn't actually have any gender fluidity or anything other than M/F

offended or not .... other representation or not - that doesnt change the fact that one would expect Halima to fit the bill 

I also disagree with Representation for the sake of representation 
it cheapens it by making it a checklist Item 

but thats a personal stance that others may or may not share 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Wraith235

[Gothic Flame]

The Dark One can't create. It can only pervert...twist.

We have gendered souls and the one power is gender specific. 

"Pillow friends" aren't so unusual... And the gay isn't seen in an unnatural light.

But the Dark One has taken something...friendly and turned it into something else.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Wraith235 said:

exactly .... and as I said the verbage suggests there were multiple disagreements 

 

1st I NEVER Said removing Saidin and Saidar - and I have not seen anyone making such claims aside from your hypothetical statement- though I suppose stranger things have happened and maybe it is out there somewhere 

the way you get from point A to point B- at least for me is the other quotes from Rafe regarding the de-gendering of souls - the MOMENT you say that the dragon has been female in ages past you de-gender the OP .... I have speculated that this may have been a point of contention simply due to the gravity of the change

I have seen people claim that. sorry if i mistook you for one of them. i thought by de-gendering the power you meant removing saidin and saidar.

but then i don't understand what you mean by it.

souls are de-gendered, but if there is still saidin used by males and saidar by females, then the power is still gendered. perhaps tied to biological sex rather than gender - which would work much better, because unlike gender and identity, biological sex is pretty much binary

[Rose]

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

Wraith may be referring to the idea that Halima is the only direct trans representation we have in WoT.  And that removing her would lead to outrage etc etc. 

 

I don't believe this to be an issue because from what I understand Halima is not well thought of in the WoT Trans community as a whole. 

 

But this is just speculation on my part.

 

Yes, as far as I know trans WoT fans do not like Halima and wouldn't mind if that entire plot point got deleted altogether.

[Gothic Flame]

8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I have seen people claim that. sorry if i mistook you for one of them. i thought by de-gendering the power you meant removing saidin and saidar.

but then i don't understand what you mean by it.

souls are de-gendered, but if there is still saidin used by males and saidar by females, then the power is still gendered. perhaps tied to biological sex rather than gender - which would work much better, because unlike gender and identity, biological sex is pretty much binary

Uh...the Dark One reincarnated Balthamel (dude) in a female body, calling him...her Aran'gar. A woman channeling the male half of the one power

[king of nowhere]

17 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

"Pillow friends" aren't so unusual...

 

a slight change of topic, but pillow friends are a poor example of lesbianism.

it's girls forced to live in segregations, without men, occasionally having sex with each other. that hasn't got anything to do with gender identity, it is simply a coping mechanism. sexuality is a natural urge, and if you remove its intended target, it can find another one as surrogate.

just like in prison you have men locked up without women, and a lot of them turn to sexual games between men (in the best cases) and raping of the younger, ephebic-looking prisoner (in the worst cases), but those men are not gays, the moment you leave them free and they can see women again, they go back to women.

what's happening in the white tower is the same. most pillow friends stop when they are raised simply because they can have men again, and they were never lesbians in the first place.

it's actually an indication of how toxic is the white tower as a growing environment. it's no wonder aes sedai are so messed up with power and politics to the point that a fifth of them sold their souls for more power; remove the normal feelings from a person, detach them from humanity, only ambition and ruthlessness is left. 

aiel wise ones apprentices don't have pillow friends, they are not isolated from society. and they have a much, much lower rate of failures, while being no worse than aes sedai. this because the aiel way, while very hard, is still much less traumatic. it forces the girl to be strong, to grow, but it does not repress them like being a novice.

 

as an educator, i would like to see that transposed correctly.

[Ralph]

45 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I agree there is no gender fluidity portrayed in the book. But I didn't see the world as it was precluding it.

 

How can it exist if souls are restricted to M/F? Or do you mean only a soul that can't be reincarnated and can't channel? 

[king of nowhere]

5 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Uh...the Dark One reincarnated Balthamel (dude) in a female body, calling him...her Aran'gar. A woman channeling the male half of the one power

yes, but the dark one can do all sorts of weird stuff.

if the dark one does something that's an exception to the normal rules of the world, everyone will understand it's a case of "a wizard did it" and not something to be expanded upon

[Rose]

17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I have seen people claim that. sorry if i mistook you for one of them. i thought by de-gendering the power you meant removing saidin and saidar.

but then i don't understand what you mean by it.

souls are de-gendered, but if there is still saidin used by males and saidar by females, then the power is still gendered. perhaps tied to biological sex rather than gender - which would work much better, because unlike gender and identity, biological sex is pretty much binary

 

I mean, even biological sex isn't entirely binary (intersex people exist) but it's still possible to keep the saidin/saidar separation while accounting for that, I think, if they make it tied to biology. It's easier than using gendered souls at least.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Rose

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

a slight change of topic, but pillow friends are a poor example of lesbianism.

it's girls forced to live in segregations, without men, occasionally having sex with each other. that hasn't got anything to do with gender identity, it is simply a coping mechanism. sexuality is a natural urge, and if you remove its intended target, it can find another one as surrogate.

just like in prison you have men locked up without women, and a lot of them turn to sexual games between men (in the best cases) and raping of the younger, ephebic-looking prisoner (in the worst cases), but those men are not gays, the moment you leave them free and they can see women again, they go back to women.

what's happening in the white tower is the same. most pillow friends stop when they are raised simply because they can have men again, and they were never lesbians in the first place.

it's actually an indication of how toxic is the white tower as a growing environment. it's no wonder aes sedai are so messed up with power and politics to the point that a fifth of them sold their souls for more power; remove the normal feelings from a person, detach them from humanity, only ambition and ruthlessness is left. 

aiel wise ones apprentices don't have pillow friends, they are not isolated from society. and they have a much, much lower rate of failures, while being no worse than aes sedai. this because the aiel way, while very hard, is still much less traumatic. it forces the girl to be strong, to grow, but it does not repress them like being a novice.

 

as an educator, i would like to see that transposed correctly.

 

Yes, and this is another example of something that developed through the series. But even by the end of the RJ books we have no gay men (I think), and the only gay women (not counting pillow friends) are Galina and the Seafolk woman who had an affair with a Cairhienin noblewoman.