Will the show be good? Our hopes and concerns

[Ralph]

5 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Yes a male soul will always go into a male body. But although in one life they might be cisgender, in the next they might be transgender, intersex, or genderfluid. Every life is different and doesn't need to be determined by what their soul is.

 

 

Their soul will always remain what it is yes, and obviously what they channel because its tied to the soul, but that doesn't mean it has determine what gender they are in every life simply what they born as, or rather what body they born in.

 

 

As whatever the soul is which is fine because it doesn't determine their life. In some ages perhaps the dragon was trangender. 

 

What I'm trying to say is that the wheel only decides what body you will be born into not who you end up being. Just as it doesn't decide your sexuality, there's no reason for it to decide your gender.

 

Ok, I understand now

 

Basically you are saying the soul links only with the physical body and nothing else. Therefore restricting it to M/F is meaningless with regards to gender

 

The issue I think people would have with this is you are saying the soul is limited only in a physical sense but not in any real intrinsic sense. Particularly with regard to channelling that would be blatant. 

 

I can see why someone transgender seeing that could very easily see it as a rejection of their existence. 

 

Also I would feel that changes the gender based division of the World just as much as just dropping the gender limitation of the soul. If trans women are women in a man's body, then the frictions would be body-based not gender-based which doesn't make much sense to me

[Ralph]

Just now, Ralph said:

 

Ok, I understand now

 

Basically you are saying the soul links only with the physical body and nothing else. Therefore restricting it to M/F is meaningless with regards to gender

 

The issue I think people would have with this is you are saying the soul is limited only in a physical sense but not in any real intrinsic sense. Particularly with regard to channelling that would be blatant. 

 

I can see why someone transgender seeing that could very easily see it as a rejection of their existence. 

 

Also I would feel that changes the gender based division of the World just as much as just dropping the gender limitation of the soul. If trans women are women in a man's body, then the frictions would be body-based not gender-based which doesn't make much sense to me

 

Besides physical intersex being impossible

[Wraith235]

I got to back out of this conversation now .... I see now what the issue is - and its answer, and guarantee NOONE will say it outright because of the ramifications of that statement, heck someone even touched lightly on it yesterday

I will still watch at least the 1st 3 episodes and hope that this is the series I loved . 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Wraith235

[Gothic Flame]

2 hours ago, Wraith235 said:

I will still watch at least the 1st 3 episodes and hope that this is the series I loved.

Well, if anything, you're giving it more of a chance than I am.

[MasterAblar]

7 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

Ok, I understand now

 

Basically you are saying the soul links only with the physical body and nothing else. Therefore restricting it to M/F is meaningless with regards to gender

 

The issue I think people would have with this is you are saying the soul is limited only in a physical sense but not in any real intrinsic sense. Particularly with regard to channelling that would be blatant. 

 

I can see why someone transgender seeing that could very easily see it as a rejection of their existence. 

 

Also I would feel that changes the gender based division of the World just as much as just dropping the gender limitation of the soul. If trans women are women in a man's body, then the frictions would be body-based not gender-based which doesn't make much sense to me

 

Ok now I'm the one who's rather confused haha.

 

With regards to channelling that will always be problematic. Saidin/saidar are binary. Whether you tie it to the physicaly body of birth or the soul, the problem remains that a transgender channeller would end up channeling something that doesn't match with their gender. That is inevitable as long the One Power is kept as it is. Would a transgender individual channelling the "wrong" half of the source be considered a denial of their existence?

 

Ultimately a transgender person is born into the wrong body. Whether the wheel gives out male/female souls, or just basic vanilla souls, the issue remains the same. Are you saying the wheel should have transgender souls which it intentionally puts into the wrong body solely so those individuals will end up transgender? Or does it just throw the souls into whatever (other than specific cases like Rand where he had to be a man, at least in this turning according to the show), and then life takes it course?

 

If so how is that any different in practical terms than just having the male/female souls? No one in life is wondering whether their soul matches up with their gender. No one think about their soul period in the books. That's why the change seems unecessary to me. In practical terms it changes abosolutely nothing. 

 

Which is why I think its more of a change on principle then anything to do with what will be shown in the story. Other than the identity of the Dragon Reborn, which, hey, might be the reason for the change in the first place for all I know.

 

7 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

Besides physical intersex being impossible

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't intersex just due to developments during the pregnancy? Or sometimes at conception, or post pregnancy? I don't see any reason why the wheel would prevent those things.

[nsmallw]

I have high hopes for the series. What I've seen in the trailers makes it look epic, I'll have to see the whole picture before making a judgement. I just hope the acting and writing hold up really well.

I do have one gripe that I hope i'm proved wrong about and thats the relationship between Min and Rand. 

Those two are my favorite of the three Rand ladies.  I hope they have true chemistry. 

 

[Ralph]

22 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Ok now I'm the one who's rather confused haha.

 

With regards to channelling that will always be problematic. Saidin/saidar are binary. Whether you tie it to the physicaly body of birth or the soul, the problem remains that a transgender channeller would end up channeling something that doesn't match with their gender. That is inevitable as long the One Power is kept as it is. Would a transgender individual channelling the "wrong" half of the source be considered a denial of their existence?

 

Ultimately a transgender person is born into the wrong body. Whether the wheel gives out male/female souls, or just basic vanilla souls, the issue remains the same. Are you saying the wheel should have transgender souls which it intentionally puts into the wrong body solely so those individuals will end up transgender? Or does it just throw the souls into whatever (other than specific cases like Rand where he had to be a man, at least in this turning according to the show), and then life takes it course?

 

If so how is that any different in practical terms than just having the male/female souls? No one in life is wondering whether their soul matches up with their gender. No one think about their soul period in the books. That's why the change seems unecessary to me. In practical terms it changes abosolutely nothing. 

 

Which is why I think its more of a change on principle then anything to do with what will be shown in the story. Other than the identity of the Dragon Reborn, which, hey, might be the reason for the change in the first place for all I know.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't intersex just due to developments during the pregnancy? Or sometimes at conception, or post pregnancy? I don't see any reason why the wheel would prevent those things.

 

I assumed that soul=identity, and therefore that a transgender person would channel the part of the Power that matches their soul, not their body. This is why I understand that Aran'gar is perceived as a trans person, and therefore that this is offensive. 

 

That is what has been changed now, and there is now a separate gender identity not relevant to the soul. 

 

You are suggesting that soul and gender were always two separate things, and that the soul being limited to M/F meant only with regards to the body not the gender. 

 

I find that more difficult than just saying the soul is not limited 

[nsmallw]

On 11/11/2021 at 1:47 AM, Wraith235 said:

I am more and more concerned with this 
Im down to a 5 maybe a 4 after a lot of what I read over the last few days 

Souls across time -----was a big thing to Jordan  the Dragon has always been a male - and while I see a lot of the current world gender politics coming out TBH if they are dumb enough to try to change DR into Eg, or Nyn that is amount to ending themselves - that's one things the fans wont stand for , but as has been said elsewhere in this thread - why are you doing this ?

Perrin Married - ugh ok I guess since all the characters are being aged up but I agree with the mentality of what Perrin would do if that happened

Eg as a lesbian..... its a hard pill to swallow particularly when you factor in her reaction to meeting Gallad for the 1st time, as well as her relationship to Gawain(sp?)

Min as Trans - this is probably MY PERSONAL  biggest grumble .... Min was my favorite character in the books so this one is a little more personal to me- it looks like a leap to go from here to her being trans based on twitter bio but weirder things have happened

Cauthorn Ner-do wells - mmmmm dont really see the point in this 

Judkins thinking they know how Jordan would be writing in todays world, ---- this infuriates me.
The Gall one must have to assume that you know better than the creator is absurd and I REALLY am curious about Harriots opinion on the quote ""It's a very fundamental change actually to make to the book series and it has a lot of ripple effects, and we'll continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be Writing if he was Writing today"

this alone - if there was NOTHING ELSE would make me INCREDIBLY wary of this series, Honestly at this point why even call it "The Wheel of time" make it your own show instead of trying to piggyback off of a beloved work such as this 

RE your Egwene statement. In the trailers she and Rand appear to  have sex so she isn't lesbian, though she could be bisexual for sure, possibly romantic with Elayne. As to Galad and Gawyn..I just hope they are nixed ENTIRELY from the tv show. I never liked either one and they aren't truly necessary to the overarching plot, so if they are gone then there isn't anything wrong with Egwene being bisexual.

[Agitel]

52 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Ok now I'm the one who's rather confused haha.

 

With regards to channelling that will always be problematic. Saidin/saidar are binary. Whether you tie it to the physicaly body of birth or the soul, the problem remains that a transgender channeller would end up channeling something that doesn't match with their gender. That is inevitable as long the One Power is kept as it is. Would a transgender individual channelling the "wrong" half of the source be considered a denial of their existence?

 

Ultimately a transgender person is born into the wrong body. Whether the wheel gives out male/female souls, or just basic vanilla souls, the issue remains the same. Are you saying the wheel should have transgender souls which it intentionally puts into the wrong body solely so those individuals will end up transgender? Or does it just throw the souls into whatever (other than specific cases like Rand where he had to be a man, at least in this turning according to the show), and then life takes it course?

 

If so how is that any different in practical terms than just having the male/female souls? No one in life is wondering whether their soul matches up with their gender. No one think about their soul period in the books. That's why the change seems unecessary to me. In practical terms it changes abosolutely nothing. 

 

Which is why I think its more of a change on principle then anything to do with what will be shown in the story. Other than the identity of the Dragon Reborn, which, hey, might be the reason for the change in the first place for all I know.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't intersex just due to developments during the pregnancy? Or sometimes at conception, or post pregnancy? I don't see any reason why the wheel would prevent those things.

 

Rafe could make it fluid based on the individual's interior identification.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Agitel

[SinisterDeath]

 

27 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't intersex just due to developments during the pregnancy? Or sometimes at conception, or post pregnancy? I don't see any reason why the wheel would prevent those things.

Intersex for those that don't know replaced the word hermaphrodite, but also encompasses more than just what we'd associate with the older word; but yes, usually it's a result of conception/pregnancy. 

Other things of note, some people are born with chromosomes that do not match their genitalia. There are also those who are born with the wrong number of chromosomes. e.g. some people are born with XXY, XYY, XXYY, XXXY, XYYY, and honestly we can only guess how many people have those chromosomal issues because the only way to know is to test for it.

 

But enough of the science...
 

We have interview statements from RJ that genders the soul, and explicitly states that gender soul always matches the bodies gender.

RJ's world building has a lot of oddities.

The way time works is incompatible with our reality/universe.

Genetics make very little sense given what we know in our reality.

Resources on a planet are ultimately Finite, and if the wheel spins for infinity, eventually earth would be ground to dust, the sun would have exploded, the universe would have gone cold from the endless expansion.

 

RJ had a military background. He went to an all male military college (The Citadel), and was a vocal opponent when asked about the first woman to attend the Citadel, and held some sexist views (in the early 90s) regarding segregating education along gender lines. (I'm almost 100% positive if you asked RJ about girls wearing distracting clothing, he'd side with the school)

 

We know that RJ wrote the WoT as an exploration of a world flipped on it's head, that explored gender roles/dynamics and the balance there of.

 

The current gender discussion going on wasn't anywhere on RJ's radar even on his death bed. They might have been talked about in some circles, but not to the scale it is today. We can't know what RJ would have written had he started writing it in 2016 instead of the late 80s. 

 

Obviously some are hopeful he'd pick up on the current debate and explore that.

Some think he'd double down on binary gender to push back against the current narrative.

Regardless, RJ's world building does have issues with any non-binary gender existing in his world. Even Min who dressed like a boy, just like pillow friends self-corrected as the story went along. Many of us, just take this as RJ was an old dude, a product of his time, with some outdated ideas and a good heart.

 

From a world-building standpoint, given the current discussion on gender, gender roles, etc creating a trans character, or even an intersex character could be interesting counterpoint to the Halima issue.

Degendering souls is a metaphysical concept that ultimately asks "How do people in universe even know these rules?"

 

RJ's gendered souls was used to ultimately explain Saidin/Saidar and assuring that a male channeler could only ever be born into a male body and only ever channel Saidin. To an extent, this to justify Halima' as twisted joke by the DO, and to maintain the dragon as always born male, and to drive home the idea that men could never understand women because even in their past lives they were always male.

 

The concept of Gendered souls, AFAIK is asynchronous with the real-world concept of reincarnation which doesn't seem to care about gender or species.

 

/rambles

[WhiteVeils]

There's a lot more non-channelers in the world, even with the giant bumper-crop of channelers at the end of the age, than there are channelers.  And there are a lot more people who could channel but don't survive to actually begin to do so than there are wilders.  Transwomen and transmen can be frequent in society and still the question of what would happen if such a person is channeling could be utterly unknown and mysterious in the White Tower, or recorded as an obscure oddity from 100 years before.

If it was a male body that was seen to channel, most normal folks would be killing that person out of hand without questioning whether they channeled saidir or saidin.  If it was a female body with the potential to channel saidin, the Aes Sedai would never detect it...and then the female-bodied  person would go mad and have a goodly chance of killing themselves or being killed for doing something terrible, later to be reported, potentially, to the Aes Sedai who would completely cover up the incident, deciding it was "normal madness" that happened when a wilder went wrong, and tut tut about how awful wilders were.  IF a female-bodied channeler was found by aes sedai and scanned, or went to the tower for learning, the Aes Sedai would not detect any spark in them, and they'd be sent away again.  And what male bodied channeler who found they could channel without going mad would /tell/ the Aes Sedai? They'd hide their talent lest they be hunted down and killed (or would kill themselves, believing they would go mad someday). 

Transmen and transwomen could actually be, if rare, something known and accepted in many of the societies in the books with very few people ever considering the implications of such occurring if such people were channelers. Maybe Halima would have been found if that old Brown Ajah who investigated old reports about such things had been consulted, but it's not something that everyone knows or would consider instead of the normal likelihood of a regular man sneaking into  Salidar.

[Agitel]

8 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

There's a lot more non-channelers in the world, even with the giant bumper-crop of channelers at the end of the age, than there are channelers.  And there are a lot more people who could channel but don't survive to actually begin to do so than there are wilders.  Transwomen and transmen can be frequent in society and still the question of what would happen if such a person is channeling could be utterly unknown and mysterious in the White Tower, or recorded as an obscure oddity from 100 years before.

If it was a male body that was seen to channel, most normal folks would be killing that person out of hand without questioning whether they channeled saidir or saidin.  If it was a female body with the potential to channel saidin, the Aes Sedai would never detect it...and then the female-bodied  person would go mad and have a goodly chance of killing themselves or being killed for doing something terrible, later to be reported, potentially, to the Aes Sedai who would completely cover up the incident, deciding it was "normal madness" that happened when a wilder went wrong, and tut tut about how awful wilders were.  IF a female-bodied channeler was found by aes sedai and scanned, or went to the tower for learning, the Aes Sedai would not detect any spark in them, and they'd be sent away again.  And what male bodied channeler who found they could channel without going mad would /tell/ the Aes Sedai? They'd hide their talent lest they be hunted down and killed (or would kill themselves, believing they would go mad someday). 

Transmen and transwomen could actually be, if rare, something known and accepted in many of the societies in the books with very few people ever considering the implications of such occurring if such people were channelers. Maybe Halima would have been found if that old Brown Ajah who investigated old reports about such things had been consulted, but it's not something that everyone knows or would consider instead of the normal likelihood of a regular man sneaking into  Salidar.

 

Saidar channelers can sense the potential of other saidar channelers, even if they've never channeled, and visually see a saidar channeler glow when embracing the True Source.

 

What you say could work, technically, but it seems harder to justify in all the history both AOL and in the 3,000+ years since the breaking.

 

We also know Jordan in interviews clearly said it does not work this way, but there's room for Rafe to play around in if he wanted.

[WhiteVeils]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

 

Saidar channelers can sense the potential of other saidar channelers, even if they've never channeled, and visually see a saidar channeler glow when embracing the True Source.

But this society has very low mobility (pre-portals), very low communication, very low percentage of people able to channel at all, and then, at least in the real world, there is a very low percentage of people who are fully transgender.
(By fully transgender, I mean a full 'male soul' in a female body or visa versa.  A female soul  in a female body could want to express as a male for any number of reasons without being a cause to disbelieve that a male soul in a female body could exist and would cause no problem to the world or channeling at all).

In order for even 1 transgender soul to be detected by the white tower, you'd need to have an Aes Sedai able to detect Saidir and understand what they are detecting around such a rare male-bodied person able to channel saidir in such a way that they could pick out that it is definitely that one person who has the potential, when they are not looking for it.  Aes Sedai detect the ability to channel as a kinship or fellowship with the person able to channel, and even if they were looking right at a male-bodied person who could do it, they wouldn't know why they felt that kinship because they wouldn't believe that it could exist.   And very few people in the world of Randland have ever met an Aes Sedai.  It's like...I don't know...100 people in the whole world have magical belly buttons, if they only know how to use them.  But you only find out if you have a magical bellybutton if it is looked at by a taoist monk. And the taoist monks are not looking for magical bellybuttons at all (certainly on anyone other than other taoist monks or amidst their immediate family) and would not ever consider looking at yours.  And you have a hunch that if they did see your magical bellybutton, they would beat you unconscious or put you to death.  silly analogy, I know. But still.

[Katherine]

45 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

RE your Egwene statement. In the trailers she and Rand appear to  have sex so she isn't lesbian, though she could be bisexual for sure, possibly romantic with Elayne. As to Galad and Gawyn..I just hope they are nixed ENTIRELY from the tv show. I never liked either one and they aren't truly necessary to the overarching plot, so if they are gone then there isn't anything wrong with Egwene being bisexual.

 

Galad was annoying. 

Gawyn and Egwene's ending in AMoL was one of the most powerful scenes for me. Makes me cry every time. I hope he is in there for just that moment. 

 

 

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

Which is why I think its more of a change on principle then anything to do with what will be shown in the story. Other than the identity of the Dragon Reborn, which, hey, might be the reason for the change in the first place for all I know.

I truly think this change was made for only one reason - to preserve the narrative tension between Rand and Egwene until Veins of Gold. And the more I think about it, the better it feels.

 

I also truly believe that the actual impact on the show will be minimal. Prophecies about the Dragon siding with the Dark One will be emphasized alongside non-gendered prophecies about the triumph of the Light. 

 

Otherwise, I don't think the gender of souls will ever be mentioned in the show at all. It is being used merely as a mechanism to elevate Egwene's arc to be a sort of counter-point to Rand's (which it is in the books anyway). But whereas in the books we knew that Rand would ultimately prevail, the show will lean into not knowing. 

 

As for the implications on the existence of trans people. It seems like trans people could exist in the world without trans channelers. That would entirely eliminate the metaphysical problem. And you just discard Halima, whom no one will miss anyway.

 

As I look at it from this perspective, the change appears inspired.

[Arthellion]

30 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I truly think this change was made for only one reason - to preserve the narrative tension between Rand and Egwene until Veins of Gold. And the more I think about it, the better it feels.

 

I also truly believe that the actual impact on the show will be minimal. Prophecies about the Dragon siding with the Dark One will be emphasized alongside non-gendered prophecies about the triumph of the Light. 

 

Otherwise, I don't think the gender of souls will ever be mentioned in the show at all. It is being used merely as a mechanism to elevate Egwene's arc to be a sort of counter-point to Rand's (which it is in the books anyway). But whereas in the books we knew that Rand would ultimately prevail, the show will lean into not knowing. 

 

As for the implications on the existence of trans people. It seems like trans people could exist in the world without trans channelers. That would entirely eliminate the metaphysical problem. And you just discard Halima, whom no one will miss anyway.

 

As I look at it from this perspective, the change appears inspired.

This is absolutely what I'm hoping for and that they nail the execution. 

 

I don't like the changes, but I can accept them if this is how they go about it and if the actors are able to nail it. I just hope they don't lean too much into Rand being a villain. 

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

 

Saidar channelers can sense the potential of other saidar channelers, even if they've never channeled, and visually see a saidar channeler glow when embracing the True Source.

 

What you say could work, technically, but it seems harder to justify in all the history both AOL and in the 3,000+ years since the breaking.

 

 

 

From a history perspective, look at the way the White Tower is presented in the books.  They have a clear sense of how the world works but that sense is shown to be wrong (or at least not entirely correct) .  A result of that is groups like the Kin exist and provide a "home" for those who don't entirely fit in with the Tower's scheme of things.   One of the possible "solutions" might be having the Kin be not just a place for wilders, failed novices, etc but also a place where generally marginalized channelers can find a home.  You could also leverage the Aiel, Sea Folk, etc for that purpose.  

 

Basically, the Tower problematically handles it one way but other societies exist to handle it in a much more positive and inclusive way.   

 

If they keep some of the Egwene, Nyn, and Elayne traveling storylines it would also give them a pretty natural way to incorporate it into the storyline.   Say they get into a bit of trouble and are helped by a character that appears as a man but channels saidar.   They would logically be able to see the weaves while being confused by the outward appearance.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheDreadReader]

51 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I truly think this change was made for only one reason - to preserve the narrative tension between Rand and Egwene until Veins of Gold. And the more I think about it, the better it feels.

 

 

 

 

I don't really love the idea but it would help with some of the issues that I have with Egwene's storylines.  

 

It could really work well.

 

[DaddyFinn]

25 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

I just hope they don't lean too much into Rand being a villain. 

He kinda is at his darkest moments though he does what he (thinks he) has to. He's definitely not a typical hero

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

He kinda is at his darkest moments though he does what he (thinks he) has to. He's definitely not a typical hero

Right. And there are points in the story where you could very easily envision him going full Danerys.

[Arthellion]

8 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

He kinda is at his darkest moments though he does what he (thinks he) has to. He's definitely not a typical hero

 

Very true. I just would prefer the execution be less GoT Season 8 with Daenaerys going crazy.

 

Edit: @Elder haman Great minds....

Edited November 12, 2021 by Arthellion

[Lurker_Fan]

1 hour ago, Katherine said:

 

Galad was annoying. 

Gawyn and Egwene's ending in AMoL was one of the most powerful scenes for me. Makes me cry every time. I hope he is in there for just that moment. 

 

 

 

 

I think it is more likely we see a bi-sexual Elayne and Avi. Not sure about Egwene yet.

 

I enjoyed the BS Galad, once he started getting POVs.

[Skipp]

48 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

 

Very true. I just would prefer the execution be less GoT Season 8 with Daenaerys going crazy.

 

Edit: @Elder haman Great minds....

The difference being that we should see a slow descent of Rand's madness rather than the abrupt change in Daeny's character

[Arthellion]

5 minutes ago, Skipp said:

The difference being that we should see a slow descent of Rand's madness rather than the abrupt change in Daeny's character

[MasterAblar]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I truly think this change was made for only one reason - to preserve the narrative tension between Rand and Egwene until Veins of Gold. And the more I think about it, the better it feels.

 

I also truly believe that the actual impact on the show will be minimal. Prophecies about the Dragon siding with the Dark One will be emphasized alongside non-gendered prophecies about the triumph of the Light. 

 

Otherwise, I don't think the gender of souls will ever be mentioned in the show at all. It is being used merely as a mechanism to elevate Egwene's arc to be a sort of counter-point to Rand's (which it is in the books anyway). But whereas in the books we knew that Rand would ultimately prevail, the show will lean into not knowing. 

 

As for the implications on the existence of trans people. It seems like trans people could exist in the world without trans channelers. That would entirely eliminate the metaphysical problem. And you just discard Halima, whom no one will miss anyway.

 

As I look at it from this perspective, the change appears inspired.

 

I agree I think that is the impetus behind the change. If they can pull it off I'll be very impressed.

 

It's very risky because to my mind Egwene doesn't actually mirror Rand until the last 3 books. For most of it it's just not there, except for Egwene having a tendency of comparing herself to Rand. Furthermore Egwene really sets herself apart through her eagerness to push boundaries. I really hope they don't lose that in her character by pushing the potential dragon angle too hard.