Any ideas on the changes (adaptions) that Sanderson didn't love?

[MasterAblar]

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Halima I think definitely will not be in the show, as least in the way it is in the books. It would definitely be perceived as strongly antitrans. 

 

I still think it could be as simple as them wanting Egwene to have a better reason to leave with the others, not to have her reacting to a terrifying Trolloc attack by saying "OK now I want to go have an adventure." 

 

More likely, perhaps, they don't agree with (or feel audience/critics) will agree with the strict gender divisions. If they want any range of genders or equivalent to exist in the world (even if not in any of the characters) the idea of souls as M/F only can't exist. 

 

 

M/F souls are not mentioned in the books. There's no reasons for audience or critics to react to it because they won't even know unless they look up the book lore.

 

I agree that Halima is problematic, and furthermore she's fairly unimpactful to the plot.

 

If they wanted to give Egwene a better reason to leave there was easy ways to do that without resorting to such a massive change.

[Ralph]

35 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

M/F souls are not mentioned in the books. There's no reasons for audience or critics to react to it because they won't even know unless they look up the book lore.

 

I agree that Halima is problematic, and furthermore she's fairly unimpactful to the plot.

 

If they wanted to give Egwene a better reason to leave there was easy ways to do that without resorting to such a massive change.

 

Where will you see in the show that souls are not restricted to one gender? 

 

I assume only in the possibility of the Dragon being a woman. And I would assume they felt that if that isn't a possibility it would be obvious the souls were gender-restricted. 

 

Either way, as I have said numerous times - I don't need to agree with the change. I just need to understand why they have done it, and that it is something they perceived as necessary and not an indication of lack of respect for the source material. Whether they have made it work we will have to see

Edited November 10, 2021 by Ralph

[Ralph]

17 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

https://www.tor.com/2021/11/10/ive-seen-the-first-three-episodes-of-the-wheel-of-time-heres-why-youre-going-to-love-it/

 

From that:

 

"I do have a few complaints. The biggest is that there is a change made to Perrin’s backstory that I think cheapens his journey. Granted, much of Perrin’s struggle in The Wheel of Time, especially for the first five books of the series, is a very internal, cerebral one, which is more challenging to show on film than in text. However, it is the one alteration so far that feels very Hollywood; worse, it’s an overused (and sexist) trope that’s often employed as a quick shorthand to start a hero’s journey."

 

Hints pretty heavily on the "fridging" IMO

 

I missed this one ?

 

I really really hope she is killed by Trollocs not by Perrin himself

[TheDreadReader]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

 

Where will you see in the show that souls are not restricted to one gender? 

 

I don't know that we have enough information to be sure at this point.

 

One possibility is they keep Halima's character but remove the revived forsaken aspect from her.  She's a stand on her own character.   

 

There might be some ways that could come into play in the Aiel way-back-machine, Mat's memories, the voices in Rand's head, the flicker scenes, the Kin, etc. 

 

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

I assume only in the possibility if the Dragon being a woman. And I would assume they felt that if that isn't a possibility it would be obvious the souls were gender-restricted. 

 

To be honest, I think the focus on the Dragon for this change is probably way off base.  That is where the conversation gets centered but expanding the realms of possibilities may be helpful.

 

 

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

Either way, as I have said numerous times - I don't need to agree with the change. I just need to understand why they have done it, and that it is something they perceived as necessary and not an indication of lack of respect for the source material. Whether they have made it work we will have to see

 

I think that is a good way to look at it.

 

[MasterAblar]

5 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Where will you see in the show that souls are not restricted to one gender? 

 

I assume only in the possibility if the Dragon being a woman. And I would assume they felt that if that isn't a possibility it would be obvious the souls were gender-restricted. 

 

I don't see how that's obvious. If the prophecies remained as they were and Gitara's foretelling as it was, then the only reason for people believing the Dragon will be reborn as a man is because that's what it foretold.

 

I agree that I'd like to understand why they did it. But this doesn't leave much room to be honest: 

 

and we’ll continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today.

 

[Agitel]

I'm growing tired of the term fridging. Stories are put together from tropes, and fridging is one of them. I think it comes down to execution as to whether it's stale or lazy, or sometimes even in a way blind to culture issues. But I see nothing inherently wrong with having a character arc kicked off with the death of a loved one. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Agitel

[NinjaPowers975]

On the non-gendered soul thing... I honestly think it's pretty simple. The showrunners believed, rightly or wrongly (rightly IMO) that you can't have a mainstream show in today's world where the chosen one who will save the world absolutely has to be a dude.

 

I mean, yes, you could do that, but it would draw a lot of distracting negativity from some of the same people who would love other things about the WOT universe, like the greater prominence of female characters in general.

 

If you want to use inclusivity as a selling point, but then make it clear from the beginning that only one of the boys can stop the gathering evil, it kind of undermines your whole sales pitch right out of the gate.

 

Additionally, by going this way, you make it easier and more natural to get Egwene out of Emonds field, and make her role in the early part of the story much more prominent, which is a good thing since she becomes so important later.

 

Making Egwene important early brings her story to the forefront from the beginning, which will help them make season one feel more like the later books where Egwene is pretty much the second protagonist. This way, you get that dynamic from the get-go.

Edited November 10, 2021 by NinjaPowers975

[Rose]

3 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I'm growing tired of the term fridging. Stories are put together from tropes, and friding is one of them. I think it comes down to execution as to whether it's stale or lazy, or sometimes even in a way blind to culture issues. But I see nothing inherently wrong with having a character arc kicked off with the death of a loved one. 

 

I agree, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It's just overused and often badly.

[MasterAblar]

8 minutes ago, NinjaPowers975 said:

I honestly think it's pretty simple. The showrunners believed, rightly or wrongly (rightly IMO) that you can't have a mainstream show in today's world where the chosen one who will save the world absolutely has to be a dude.

 

I mean, yes, you could do that, but it would draw a lot of distracting negativity from some of the same people who would love other things about the WOT universe, like the greater prominence of female characters in general.

 

If you want to use inclusivity as a selling point, but then make it clear from the beginning that only one of the boys can stop the gathering evil, it kind of undermines your whole sales pitch right out of the gate.

 

Additionally, by going this way, you make it easier and more natural to get Egwene out of Emonds field, and make her role in the early part of the story much more prominent, which is a good thing since she becomes so important later.

 

Making Egwene important early brings her story to the forefront from the beginning, which will help them make season one feel more like the later books where Egwene is pretty much the second protagonist. This way, you get that dynamic from the get-go.

 

I mean I agree, that's why up until now I wasn't hugely bothered with what they're doing. Putting emphasis on the Aes Sedai, on Moiraine, and even Egwene and Nyneave, yeah sure thats great for marketing especially since its true to the books. The book are already inclusive. There are some minor details here and there that could be changed sure but overall they have plenty to work with within the framework of the books.

 

The end of the books is basically Rand realizing that he isn't the only one who shoulders the burden of saving the world. Isn't that exactly the message that these critics would like?

 

As for Egwene you're still not gonna get that dynamic early. Egwne remains a novice and then an accepted and a student to the Wise Ones while Rand is conquering nations. Then when she becomes Amyrlin they have basically nothing to do with each other until the last couple books. It will take big changes to the plot to place them in opposition to each other early.

Edited November 10, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Agitel]

deleted

Edited November 10, 2021 by Agitel

[Skipp]

22 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I'm growing tired of the term fridging. Stories are put together from tropes, and fridging is one of them. I think it comes down to execution as to whether it's stale or lazy, or sometimes even in a way blind to culture issues. But I see nothing inherently wrong with having a character arc kicked off with the death of a loved one. 

Fridging can be an issue in a lot of works that have a dearth of actual female characters.  This is certainly not the case for Wheel of time.  While the trope can be, and has been, used sloppily I am hoping that isn't the case for WoT, but I agree that it is much less of an issue in this series as some people can make it out to be.

[Ralph]

https://winteriscoming.net/2021/11/10/joshua-stradowski-marcus-rutherford-rand-perrin-the-wheel-of-time-changes/

[Agitel]

29 minutes ago, Ralph said:

https://winteriscoming.net/2021/11/10/joshua-stradowski-marcus-rutherford-rand-perrin-the-wheel-of-time-changes/

 

I'm not sure Perrin ever really struggled with animal, brute violence. The closest I can remember is him thinking of mercy killing Egwene, then hating on himself for thinking that even in the morbid situation they're in. Then his threat to the Aiel later. But really he's very restrained and balanced in his use of violence. He's very human in it, though yeah he does have that inner conflict with the Tinker ways and whether violence for self defense is necessary.

 

I get they're amping it up for the show. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Agitel

[Ralph]

On 11/3/2021 at 5:05 PM, swollymammoth said:

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Ralph
Sorry posted in wrong thread

[Kudzu]

5 hours ago, Agitel said:

I'm growing tired of the term fridging. Stories are put together from tropes, and fridging is one of them. I think it comes down to execution as to whether it's stale or lazy, or sometimes even in a way blind to culture issues. But I see nothing inherently wrong with having a character arc kicked off with the death of a loved one. 

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but when viewed through the lense of modern western society, I can see why people would have an issue with using violence against women as a motivation for a male characters arc. Especially when said woman has no other agency in the story, her entire reason to exist is to die violently. I don't personally feel very strongly about it, but I can certainly understand why someone would.

[SinisterDeath]

13 hours ago, Kudzu said:

There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but when viewed through the lense of modern western society, I can see why people would have an issue with using violence against women as a motivation for a male characters arc. Especially when said woman has no other agency in the story, her entire reason to exist is to die violently. I don't personally feel very strongly about it, but I can certainly understand why someone would.

I'm reminded about immensely popular films
Deadpool 1/2

John Wick
Taken

 

Most of which have a female character' who's entire existence is to die/get kidnapped.
Though, Wick has a dog that gets fridged.

[Agitel]

Oh I totally understand fridging issues, I did mention execution can be bad if blind to certain cultural issues. You see an over representation of women being killed to kick off a man's story, or how the one POC in a movie seems to always seemed to be the first one to die. Those are real issues.

 

I just don't think a minor character death in itself at the beginning is always a bad choice. The devil is in the details.

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Agitel

[Skipp]

16 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Oh I totally understand fridging issues, I did mention execution can be bad if blind to certain cultural issues. You see an over representation of women being killed to kick off a man's story, or how the one POC in a movie seems to always seemed to be the first one to die. Those are real issues.

 

I just don't think a minor character death in itself at the beginning is always a bad choice. The devil is in the details.

 

 

I agree that Fridging is an overly used trope and it is an especially harmful one when a female character is only introduced to kill just to further a male's storyline.  But I feel it is much less of an issue adding it to the Wheel of time since the representation of strong female characters is much, much higher than your standard story.  So the "fridging" in this case is much less consequential. 

[Ralph]

I don't dislike it as the trope, I dislike what I expect to happen to Perrin's personality

[DaddyFinn]

9 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I don't dislike it as the trope, I dislike what I expect to happen to Perrin's personality

Did you read this? 

 

On 11/8/2021 at 5:18 PM, DaddyFinn said:

About Laila Aybara.. check the three pictures

 

 

 

 

[Morani]

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Did you read this? 

 

 

Thank you. I had not read it, and it changed my mind almost entirely ? 

[Ralph]

To take the thread back to its starting point - 

 

Which of the changes we know are happening do we think is the one Brandon thought the fans would dislike? 

 

- souls not being restricted to one gender

- Dragon potentially (and historically) being female

- Perrin backstory

- Mat backstory

- something else ?

[DaddyFinn]

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

souls not being restricted to one gender

This is my guess because it is potentially the one creating the most changes

[Ralph]

Just now, DaddyFinn said:

This is my guess because it is potentially the one creating the most changes

 

I had assumed so, but only until I was convinced of the Perrin change. Now I am genuinely not sure

[Elder_Haman]

I’m going to say either Perrin or Mat. I think the other issues will be far enough in the background as to not be immediately noticeable