No One Can Agree on the Purpose of Adaptation (and that's okay)

[TheDreadReader]

3 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Yeah I've noticed these thin pieces of white armor. Have we seen other ones?

 

 

 

It might depend on your definition on "armor."

 

A few uniform non-armor complete examples.

 

The UK Royal Marine "gorget" with ribbon from the 19th century.

The leather neck stock worn in the 19th century by both US and UK Marines.

 

Military kit will sometimes tell its own story about the organization that uses it.    

 

 

 

 

[Katherine]

So I love to read, and when I watch a book-to- screen adaptation I expect to see the book brought to life.  Will there be changes to make things work on screen? Of course. But do I expect to see fundamental character changes for no reason? No. I don’t expect that and really shouldn’t expect that. I expect there to be a lot of changes here because so much of the character development was internal ….lots and lots and lots of internal dialogue happen and Robert JOrdan‘s books. The show runners have a A huge task in front of them bringing that character development to the outside. For example Perrin is so reluctant with women and resists Faile for so long. You get it with the internal dialogue but it would be difficult to show in a TV adaptation so him having a wife and experiencing that tragedy and that being a part of his character arc along with finding out he’s a wolf brother… OK I can get on board with that. That’s a change to help show his arc through the books. But changing character arcs?‘s changing things just to change them because we are an “artist “? I have no time for that.  you have a brilliant source material amazing characters… Freaking put them on screen. If you think this doesn’t work go watch the new dune movie. We’re things different? Sure. It was extremely faithful to the books and an absolutely freaking awesome movie

[Jackdaw_Fool]

I don't think there is a breast plate under the clothing... Looks like some leathery pieces are here and there on the shirts. Maybe in addition some chainmail type thing is hidden, but I'm guessing not. Looks unfortunately on the silly/decorative use only side to me and not very functional, but I'm no armorer. I think clearly there was a strong crusader / Knights Templar inspiration to the look where long white tunics were worn over armor along with white cloaks (see an example here).

 

I'd think that was a great place to start, but much was lost in translation with the long tunics becoming overly long (tripping hazard?) and taking on the appearance of, well, skirts, as well as developing the fancy belts and an overall toga-like appearance. Maybe they'll have plate as it was described in the books when appropriate (which will make me much more fine with this), but these outfits are not at all anything I'm happy with... Just looks like very crummy suspension of disbelief breaking Halloween type costuming to me. I'd imagine this was a budget saving compromise? (And so maybe we aren't likely to see many of them in plate mail even riding into battle.)

[Agitel]

I was reading some speculation that the Children were changed from a heavy cavalry force to a light cavalry force (think Hussars), as reflected in their armor choices and apparently the weapons they carry, but even still they might not be in their full armor in the shots we've seen. Why? Could be any number of reasons, stylistic, giving them an identity and look unique from other heavy cavalry forces in the books, maybe budget and practicality for filming and for the actors. It doesn't really change their mission or plot role from the books.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Agitel

[TheMountain]

11 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I was reading some speculation that the Children were changed from a heavy cavalry force to a light cavalry force (think Hussars), as reflected in their armor choices and apparently the weapons they carry, but even still they might not be in their full armor in the shots we've seen. Why? Could be any number of reasons, stylistic, giving them an identity and look unique from other heavy cavalry forces in the books, maybe budget and practicality for filming and for the actors. It doesn't really change their mission or plot role from the books.

 

For me there are two likely reasons:

 

1. Budget.

2. Rafe said that they want to be "new and fresh" and are trying to lean away from "things we've seen before."

 

I don't agree with #2, but I can see that being the convenient reason to avoid spending a lot of money on plate armor.

Edited November 6, 2021 by TheMountain

[Agitel]

Seeing a lot of people be very critical of the White Cloaks design (and I honestly am not singling out anyone in particular) has me a bit perplexed. Take the possibility that the Dragon could be reborn as a woman. I get the complaints there, and it kind of annoys me too, even if I've taken a very half glass full view of it in my posts. But I have no qualms at all about the White Cloak attire being the way it is. It's not even a just "it's not worth it, pick my battles" attitude, I appreciate the redesign there and don't mind the tweak at all. And while I know not everyone is going to see it like that, I feel like I've observed a very strong reaction to their appearance, which kind of catches me off guard.

[Raezold]

So it's undergarment > breastplate > white dress > plastic looking piece to keep the plastic looking shoulder piece in place > cloak?
Personally I don't think there's a breastplate underneath that dress. They all should look more bulky in that case.

 

11 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Seeing a lot of people be very critical of the White Cloaks design (and I honestly am not singling out anyone in particular) has me a bit perplexed. Take the possibility that the Dragon could be reborn as a woman. I get the complaints there, and it kind of annoys me too, even if I've taken a very half glass full view of it in my posts. But I have no qualms at all about the White Cloak attire being the way it is. It's not even a just "it's not worth it, pick my battles" attitude, I appreciate the redesign there and don't mind the tweak at all. And while I know not everyone is going to see it like that, I feel like I've observed a very strong reaction to their appearance, which kind of catches me off guard.

 

Well, a lot of stuff looks good (and so it should with the millions of dollars they got to spend) but the Whitecloaks just look like a shitty cosplay group. We actually had to laugh when we saw them for the first time in that leaked photo and were hoping they were just taking the piss with us. Sadly they weren't. It's like what they did with the Nilfgaard armour for The Withcer tv show.

But I guess, in the end there's no arguing taste ?

[Agitel]

I think these look aesthetically much better than Nilfgard's armor. ?

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

I was reading some speculation that the Children were changed from a heavy cavalry force to a light cavalry force (think Hussars), as reflected in their armor choices and apparently the weapons they carry, but even still they might not be in their full armor in the shots we've seen. Why? Could be any number of reasons, stylistic, giving them an identity and look unique from other heavy cavalry forces in the books, maybe budget and practicality for filming and for the actors. It doesn't really change their mission or plot role from the books.

Could be ridiculously hot and unsafe (insurance) in the summer months.

[Ryan al'Thor]

50 minutes ago, Raezold said:

So it's undergarment > breastplate > white dress > plastic looking piece to keep the plastic looking shoulder piece in place > cloak?
Personally I don't think there's a breastplate underneath that dress. They all should look more bulky in that case.

 

 

Well, a lot of stuff looks good (and so it should with the millions of dollars they got to spend) but the Whitecloaks just look like a shitty cosplay group. We actually had to laugh when we saw them for the first time in that leaked photo and were hoping they were just taking the piss with us. Sadly they weren't. It's like what they did with the Nilfgaard armour for The Withcer tv show.

But I guess, in the end there's no arguing taste ?

I agree the outfits aren’t great, but not going to nitpick things like that.

[SinisterDeath]

52 minutes ago, Raezold said:

Well, a lot of stuff looks good (and so it should with the millions of dollars they got to spend) but the Whitecloaks just look like a shitty cosplay group.

Well, that does kind of sum them up in the books.
They were all about displays of power (military theater), looking the part, but failing at real tactics, minus the few individuals who actually knew something.

[Rhyagelle]

If nothing else can be said about the show, they definitely have incredible sets and costume designs. Even the ones I don't particularly like still look quite amazing. And a lot of the actors I'm actually really supportive of, especially Moiraine and Perrin. 

That said, after I've read the leaks and watched the teaser trailer, I have lost all hope and interest in the show. There are some changes I'm okay with, and others I'm completely turned off by. It's radical, really. Of course, I'm really hoping it's all some really elaborate mis-marketing campaign to stop the spread of actual leaks, but if hopes were steaks, I'd be eating like a king right now. 

Making matters worse, it has created some difficult people to talk with. ?

[Deadsy]

5 hours ago, Rhyagelle said:

If nothing else can be said about the show, they definitely have incredible sets and costume designs. Even the ones I don't particularly like still look quite amazing. And a lot of the actors I'm actually really supportive of, especially Moiraine and Perrin. 

That said, after I've read the leaks and watched the teaser trailer, I have lost all hope and interest in the show. There are some changes I'm okay with, and others I'm completely turned off by. It's radical, really. Of course, I'm really hoping it's all some really elaborate mis-marketing campaign to stop the spread of actual leaks, but if hopes were steaks, I'd be eating like a king right now. 

Making matters worse, it has created some difficult people to talk with. ?

 

 

If people seem difficult it's probably because most find comments like the underlined to be extremely odd. At least watch a few episodes before casting judgement.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Deadsy

[Maximillion]

18 hours ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

If people seem difficult it's probably because most find comments like the underlined to be extremely odd. At least watch a few episodes before casting judgement.

 Don’t think it extremely odd at all.

 This story is one that has captured millions and in my view is one of the rare examples where the reader is really transported into the world created and the characters within it come to life in a way that few do.  The hope that this would ever be realised on screen had pretty much faded, so I think it is understandable that some are very upset with the changes to the story we’ve seen leaked and in trailers.

 Like getting a last chance and realising it wasn’t really a chance. 
The show could be great, but it isn’t going to be the story many fell in love with. It’s already been confirmed it’s a different turning of the wheel, so it’s more if a series based in the world of WoT rather than the WoT we know.

 

As to why the story needed to be different… that is the question. Maybe it was felt that with the outcome known from the books it needed to be to hold interest, maybe it was something else.

 For me I am still interested in what they do, but have very little hope that the writers are even close to the talent of RJ and this I am not expecting much… probably something more formulaic to capture eyeballs.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Maximillion

[Deadsy]

41 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 Don’t think it extremely odd at all.

 This story is one that has captured millions and in my view is one of the rare examples where the reader is really transported into the world created and the characters within it come to life in a way that few do.  The hope that this would ever be realised on screen had pretty much faded, so I think it is understandable that some are very upset with the changes to the story we’ve seen leaked and in trailers.

 Like getting a last chance and realising it wasn’t really a chance. 
The show could be great, but it isn’t going to be the story many fell in love with. It’s already been confirmed it’s a different turning of the wheel, so it’s more if a series based in the world of WoT rather than the WoT we know.

 

As to why the story needed to be different… that is the question. Maybe it was felt that with the outcome known from the books it needed to be to hold interest, maybe it was something else.

 For me I am still interested in what they do, but have very little hope that the writers are even close to the talent of RJ and this I am not expecting much… probably something more formulaic to capture eyeballs.

 

 

Judging the show and getting super negative based off of some trailers and interviews when we are getting full episodes soon isn't odd? Really not seeing how it isn't. Waiting and giving it a chance and some context doesn't deny you the chance to complain about it afterwards.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Deadsy

[Rhyagelle]

19 hours ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

If people seem difficult it's probably because most find comments like the underlined to be extremely odd. At least watch a few episodes before casting judgement.

 

So, someone finds something odd/disagreeable, and they think the first course of action is to be difficult? And somehow, that's acceptable? ?

And it's as I said; if the leaks are true and crucial lore has been changed, that's just not something that I can enjoy as a book fan. At all. Because I'm not interested in AU or anything like that, I was interested in the books being (as) faithfully adapted as possible. Did I expect a carbon copy of the books? No, no sane person could, but to have the most crucial part of the world's working disregarded immediately from the start is a terrible sign for me.

 

There's nothing wrong with saying that at all and if someone reacts to that in any form of hostility, it's a problem. On their end, not mine.

 

  

59 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 Don’t think it extremely odd at all.

 This story is one that has captured millions and in my view is one of the rare examples where the reader is really transported into the world created and the characters within it come to life in a way that few do.  The hope that this would ever be realised on screen had pretty much faded, so I think it is understandable that some are very upset with the changes to the story we’ve seen leaked and in trailers.

 Like getting a last chance and realising it wasn’t really a chance. 

The show could be great, but it isn’t going to be the story many fell in love with. It’s already been confirmed it’s a different turning of the wheel, so it’s more if a series based in the world of WoT rather than the WoT we know.

 

As to why the story needed to be different… that is the question. Maybe it was felt that with the outcome known from the books it needed to be to hold interest, maybe it was something else.

 For me I am still interested in what they do, but have very little hope that the writers are even close to the talent of RJ and this I am not expecting much… probably something more formulaic to capture eyeballs.

 

Yes, exactly. I'm sure they can tell their altered story very well, but it's not actually Wheel of Time, and certainly not part of the world I had fallen in love with and had been excited about.

 

I think it's far more problematic that some fans react to other fans not enjoying altered lore to be worth freaking out on them over (not saying that happened here of course). And I certainly doubt waiting to see the altered content is going to make me love that they disregarded it in the first place. The problem wasn't that I didn't think they could tell a fun story, far from it. It was that they weren't telling THE Wheel of Time story. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Rhyagelle
grammar etc

[Deadsy]

24 minutes ago, Rhyagelle said:

 

So, someone finds something odd/disagreeable, and they think the first course of action is to be difficult? And somehow, that's acceptable? ?

And it's as I said; if the leaks are true and crucial lore has been changed, that's just not something that I can enjoy as a book fan. At all. Because I'm not interested in AU or anything like that, I was interested in the books being (as) faithfully adapted as possible. Did I expect a carbon copy of the books? No, no sane person could, but to have the most crucial part of the world's working disregarded immediately from the start is a terrible sign for me.

 

There's nothing wrong with saying that at all and if someone reacts to that in any form of hostility, it's a problem. On their end, not mine.

 

  

 

Yes, exactly. I'm sure they can tell their altered story very well, but it's not actually Wheel of Time, and certainly not part of the world I had fallen in love with and had been excited about.

 

I think it's far more problematic that some fans react to other fans not enjoying altered lore to be worth freaking out on them over (not saying that happened here of course). And I certainly doubt waiting to see the altered content is going to make me love that they disregarded it in the first place. The problem wasn't that I didn't think they could tell a fun story, far from it. It was that they weren't telling THE Wheel of Time story. 

 

I doubt anyone is being difficult because they don't agree with something. It's probably because the show is about to come out and there are people mad already over a few minutes of scenes, and it seems ridiculous.

 

If that's the case no TV or movie adaptation is actually the story it's adapting.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Deadsy

[Rhyagelle]

30 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

I doubt anyone is being difficult because they don't agree with something. It's probably because the show is about to come out and there are people mad already over a few minutes of scenes, and it seems ridiculous.

 

If that's the case no TV or movie adaptation is actually the story it's adapting.

 

I didn't say they were difficult just because they don't agree. I just said there have been very difficult people to deal with since this show started to pop off, that's all. There's such a thing called "toxic positivity" and it's a rampant problem just as much as toxic negativity. 

And no, that's not entirely true at all. As many flaws as there were in the Lord of the Rings, it is still an incredible adaptation for example. It changed a lot, certainly, but nothing so fundamental to the story in comparison to say tDR and how the Power works in Wheel of Time. A more recent example of a great adaptation? Dune. Was it 1:1? No. Was it incredible? Yes. Because it didn't alter and or remove the core pieces of how the world operates and whilst cutting and slightly re-arranging things, still told the same story with ease.

 

No one was or is expecting a carbon copy of Wheel of Time, and pointing out that because no adaptation will ever be 100% does nothing for the conversation at hand as to why it's "bad" to do what they are doing with WoT for so many fans. All because it operates under the assumption we expected only perfection and thus are being unreasonable because we dare to be upset about crucial changes. 

EDIT

Also... no one is upset just over a "few" minutes of teasers. That's ignoring what's being said to hyper-reduce opposing views about the show. People are upset because now even the book consultant for the show admitted drastic changes to the show lore, including for tDR, One Power etc etc. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Rhyagelle

[Deadsy]

2 hours ago, Rhyagelle said:

 

I didn't say they were difficult just because they don't agree. I just said there have been very difficult people to deal with since this show started to pop off, that's all. There's such a thing called "toxic positivity" and it's a rampant problem just as much as toxic negativity. 

And no, that's not entirely true at all. As many flaws as there were in the Lord of the Rings, it is still an incredible adaptation for example. It changed a lot, certainly, but nothing so fundamental to the story in comparison to say tDR and how the Power works in Wheel of Time. A more recent example of a great adaptation? Dune. Was it 1:1? No. Was it incredible? Yes. Because it didn't alter and or remove the core pieces of how the world operates and whilst cutting and slightly re-arranging things, still told the same story with ease.

 

No one was or is expecting a carbon copy of Wheel of Time, and pointing out that because no adaptation will ever be 100% does nothing for the conversation at hand as to why it's "bad" to do what they are doing with WoT for so many fans. All because it operates under the assumption we expected only perfection and thus are being unreasonable because we dare to be upset about crucial changes. 

EDIT

Also... no one is upset just over a "few" minutes of teasers. That's ignoring what's being said to hyper-reduce opposing views about the show. People are upset because now even the book consultant for the show admitted drastic changes to the show lore, including for tDR, One Power etc etc. 

 

 

It's subjective whether she "admitted" to "drastic" changes, and I don't agree with that notion. You are kind of going off of a few minutes now, yet comparing it to LotR where there were a lot of changes and we already know all of the information. It isn't toxic positivity to think people should watch a few episodes and then have at it, instead of making all of these negative assumptions so readily. I'm not assuming the show is going to be great. I'm just hoping it is and reserving judgement for when I actually see it. There are a lot of people who are assuming it's going to suck, saying things like they aren't even going to watch it, before they've seen it, and that is really nonsensical to me.

[Ralph]

On 11/6/2021 at 11:49 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Well, that does kind of sum them up in the books.
They were all about displays of power (military theater), looking the part, but failing at real tactics, minus the few individuals who actually knew something.

Where do we find that they were tactically inept? 

[MasterAblar]

Yeah they were unprepared for shadowspawn to be sure but I don’t recall them being particularly tactically inept.

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

Yeah they were unprepared for shadowspawn to be sure but I don’t recall them being particularly tactically inept.

Correct - when we finally made it to the Fortress of Light, there were plenty of captured battle banners on the wall.  The Children used bluster and bravado as often as they could to get their way.  But they could back it up if they had too.  Made sense - why waste your own troops if bluffing worked?  Why make yourself even more hated by killing enemy troops when you can parade around and act indifferent?

 

They were a legitimate power but still tinier than they would like.  Don't pick a fight with the 800-lb gorilla until you know you can smoke him...

Edited November 8, 2021 by DojoToad

[Ralph]

And Pedron Niall led the coalition in the Aiel War, didn't he? 

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

Yeah they were unprepared for shadowspawn to be sure but I don’t recall them being particularly tactically inept.

All I can say confronted with everything mentioned above, is their obsession with keeping their uniforms "white", is a tremendous waste of resources.

 

47 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

But they could back it up if they had too

I kind of equate them to the TSA.

They're all bravado, and exist in a state of "Security Theater". That doesn't mean they are incapable of committing violence. They are quite effective at being violent.

Granted, there were some talented generals/leaders among the white cloaks that actually employed tactics instead of rushing in Leroy Jenkins style when they couldn't bluff their way out of a conflict.


Aside from the White Cloaks being filled to the brim with men that liked to fight, I do wonder how much of their success was due to their equipment? Equipping every white cloak with a breast plate and helm isn't cheap. Almost all of them being mounted isn't cheap either. Mounted soldiers with Breastplates were the tanks of their era.

The Two Rivers longbow, happened to be one of the few weapons that didn't care about their armor. Prior to "Lord Golden Eyes", and "Matrim Cauthon", from the commentary in the books, its evident that long bows in mass weren't employed anytime in recent history... Thus, armor was never developed to better counter an arrow from a long bow. I do find it rather odd, that the generals in Randland were obsessed with the sword. This obsession stifled innovation.... On the other hand, with Mat's "Guns", that technology is going to invalidate advancements to armor technology for the foreseeable future.... unless Aes Sedai get into the business of creating armor.

[Rose]

Cuendillar bulletproof armor for everyone!