So... About Lan...

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, RhienneAgain said:

Apart from being vaguely right appearance-wise, show-Lan and book-Lan don't seem like the same person to me.

 

I'm finding it a bit jarring that some characters are kept the same in terms of personality (Moiraine, Rand, Perrin, etc.) while others like Lan seem unrecognisable.

Lan at the start of the books is a very wooden character who is pretty much one dimensional and really reminds me of Aragorn. I have no problem with the emotion his character shows later on (which I imagine in part where do to Robert Jordan developing and changing the character as he got to know him). Authors generally change characters over long series as they write them I imagine had Robert re written eye if the world he would have changed a lot in it based on how the world developed in his head. 

[Archaeon]

I for one have followed this series since the first book. I have physically read it twice and listen to the audio books again every couple of years. I found this scene deeply moving. And in the end that is what Robert Jordan tried so hard to do with all of his characters. Make them real. Let us feel them. This was a wonderful scene to show what the warrior of stone holds in every day. Well done

 

[grayavatar]

On 11/27/2021 at 7:01 AM, MasterAblar said:

 

Who do I need to bribe to make this happen? I have money.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't

"and abruptly he pulled one hand out, slashing at her face with the ruby-hilted dagger.

One minute Lan was in the doorway, the next he was at the bedside, as if he had not bothered with the intervening space. His hand caught Mat’s wrist, stopping the slash as if it had struck stone."

from the reunion in Caemlyn Book 1

[grayavatar]

On 11/28/2021 at 5:01 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

Lan at the start of the books is a very wooden character who is pretty much one dimensional and really reminds me of Aragorn. I have no problem with the emotion his character shows later on (which I imagine in part where do to Robert Jordan developing and changing the character as he got to know him). Authors generally change characters over long series as they write them I imagine had Robert re written eye if the world he would have changed a lot in it based on how the world developed in his head. 

Lan changes later in the books for a reason. He gets worse for Myrelle but he does get softer for Nynaeve. It is too soon for him to be getting soft and never this soft.

[ForsakenPotato]

I really liked that they showed the warders having a bit more of a community than was ever described in the books (from my recollection, correct me if I'm wrong). It makes sense because they train together and have known each other a very long time. If Lan can be kind to Rand and Nyneave within months of knowing them in the books, it follows he would also have a few good relationships with people he has known for many decades. Being kind to some people and performing a grieving ritual (although I agree it was a little melodramatic) don't make him "soft". It's still obvious that honor and duty are his priorities and that's what makes him strong and good, much more so than avoiding facial expressions.

 

TV Lan is still holding back plenty of stuff too. We got the scene where he's helping the other warders prep Stepin for tossing the ring, and Stepin and one of the other dudes talk about their tragic backstories. Lan doesn't spill his guts about his own history. We've never heard him complain about anything once. He's busy being a rock for Moiraine and his dudes when they need him. That's real emotional strength in my opinion. I also agree we need to see more of him fighting so it's clear he has the physical strength down too!

 

Moiraine is also described in the first book as being aloof, unreadable, and cold. Rosamund Pike brings much more warmth to her than I imagined when I read EotW, but I haven't seen any similar concerns about her portrayal compared to Lan. Not sure if that's just because I imagined her meaner than other book readers, or if other readers were just more attached to Lan avoiding telegraphing emotion than Moiraine doing the exact same thing.

 

Frankly, the main downside I see to making Lan and Moiraine kinder than the early books is that currently they are more compelling heroes than any of the EF5 are. However, I think the answer is to spend more time with the EF5 and give them more of a chance to shine, not remove the emotion from the performances by Henney & Pike.

[Deadsy]

Just taking a stab at one reason why Lan might seem different to some people.

The TV show is actually doing at least 1 thing better than the books, which is establish his relationship with Nynaeve. Maybe seeing them actually develop it and make it make sense is jarring to some people.

We also haven't gotten to the reveal of who he is.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Deadsy

[Gothic Flame]

Lan's relationship with Nynaeve grows with the books. Not rushy rush along a couple of episodes.

 

But then...that's related to the common complaint of little characterization.

[Skipp]

19 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Lan's relationship with Nynaeve grows with the books. Not rushy rush along a couple of episodes.

 

But then...that's related to the common complaint of little characterization.

Lan's relationship with Nynaeve explodes out of no where near the end of the first book when they are camping in the blight.  This can be explained away in the book as it is mostly Rand's PoV and he just doesn't pick up on it.  Nut yes the relationship does come out of seemingly nowhere in the first book.

[DaddyFinn]

32 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Not rushy rush along a couple of episodes.

Luckily there has been nothing rushy rush so far.

[ArrylT]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Lan's relationship with Nynaeve explodes out of no where near the end of the first book when they are camping in the blight.  This can be explained away in the book as it is mostly Rand's PoV and he just doesn't pick up on it.  Nut yes the relationship does come out of seemingly nowhere in the first book.

 

Someone said something I found interesting on a podcast.  

 

They said that while the first book was mainly Rands POV that just means that this is an example of an unreliable narrator, and that how Rand saw Lan is perhaps not how Nynaeve saw Lan, or how Perrin/Mat/Egwene see him, and obviously not how Moiraine sees him.

 

In the end each of our perceptions, apart from the few Lan POV (most of which are New Spring or late in the main series),  is built second hand.

 

The funeral scene can indeed be added pov where we see Nynaeve building more of a connection with Lan because she - having spent a month+ with him, sees how stoic/reserved he usually is, and gets another glimpse of how he not one dimensional a person - just very focused on his tasks & duty.  

 

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

Someone said something I found interesting on a podcast.  

 

They said that while the first book was mainly Rands POV that just means that this is an example of an unreliable narrator, and that how Rand saw Lan is perhaps not how Nynaeve saw Lan, or how Perrin/Mat/Egwene see him, and obviously not how Moiraine sees him.

 

In the end each of our perceptions, apart from the few Lan POV (most of which are New Spring or late in the main series),  is built second hand.

 

The funeral scene can indeed be added pov where we see Nynaeve building more of a connection with Lan because she - having spent a month+ with him, sees how stoic/reserved he usually is, and gets another glimpse of how he not one dimensional a person - just very focused on his tasks & duty.  

 

 

And that is a fair point,

[Ralph]

Showing his human side will also make the change when Moiraine vanishes much more dramatic

[king of nowhere]

10 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

It's still obvious that honor and duty are his priorities and that's what makes him strong and good, much more so than avoiding facial expressions.

[DojoToad]

On 11/26/2021 at 10:54 PM, king of nowhere said:

 

and yet, the books are full of descriptions of warders training by doing katas. so, more complaining that the show is faithful to the books

I have no problems with katas/forms.  But the ones they showed did not show any power or speed - or awesomeness!  Performing katas would have been a great time to show how great warders are with their weapons without the chance of injuring another actor.

[DojoToad]

On 12/5/2021 at 10:42 PM, Archaeon said:

I for one have followed this series since the first book. I have physically read it twice and listen to the audio books again every couple of years. I found this scene deeply moving. And in the end that is what Robert Jordan tried so hard to do with all of his characters. Make them real. Let us feel them. This was a wonderful scene to show what the warrior of stone holds in every day. Well done

 

Yes, from what I've read here the scene was done well.  But I think it would have been better if it contrasted more with his character from the rest of the show.  If he was more stoic (like the books) for his previous scenes, the payoff at the funeral would have been that much greater.  The warrior of stone is human!

[DaddyFinn]

IMO there was a good contrast between how Lan reacted to finding Stepin (Lan's face was blank, he didn't say a word, he kneeled next to Stepin and placed his hand on Stepin's shoulder) and how he handled the funeral duty(intentionally and justifiably emotional but not one teardrop).

[Theseus78]

Also, you have to remember that it's impossible for book-Lan to come to screen.  Because book-Lan for me as a reader is going to be different than book-Lan was for you as a reader.

 

This is Lan as Daniel Henney sees him.  It's obviously going to be different than how book-Lan was for me.  Fine, that's the nature of the beast of an adaptation. 

[TheDreadReader]

51 minutes ago, Theseus78 said:

Also, you have to remember that it's impossible for book-Lan to come to screen.  Because book-Lan for me as a reader is going to be different than book-Lan was for you as a reader.

 

This is Lan as Daniel Henney sees him.  It's obviously going to be different than how book-Lan was for me.  Fine, that's the nature of the beast of an adaptation. 

 

Your point about Daniel Henney is a really good one and it should be emphasized.  Actors "interpret" the character they see in the screenplay/script and then work to express that interpretation.   It is what they get paid to do.   That's the value that they bring to the table. 

 

 

[KakitaOCU]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I have no problems with katas/forms.  But the ones they showed did not show any power or speed - or awesomeness!  Performing katas would have been a great time to show how great warders are with their weapons without the chance of injuring another actor.

Except Kata are about training muscle memory, not "Power and speed".  I've never done a form fast or rapidly, it just doesn't serve a purpose.  I do it at half speed over and over to train the motion to myself.

[DojoToad]

36 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Except Kata are about training muscle memory, not "Power and speed".  I've never done a form fast or rapidly, it just doesn't serve a purpose.  I do it at half speed over and over to train the motion to myself.

I have done forms extremely slow and precise, as fast as possible (and sloppy), and at 'regular' speed for practice and competition.  Each one teaches the mind and muscle memory in a different way.

 

When I go as fast as possible, I'm training my mind to to work quickly.  When I go extremely slowly I have more time to notice precise positioning - toes pointed correctly, knee bent properly, arm at right angle, etc.

 

I've done this with weapons and empty hand.  During the same form, I will speed up and slow down based on what makes sense and what I'm trying to accomplish during a given portion of the form.  If you don't train with "power and speed" how do you expect to perform with it?

 

For the show, I would have expected to see Lan performing at a competition pace with controlled power and speed.  No sloppiness and each move precise.

 

I forget which book, but when Egwene 'found' Lan with the Green who had saved him, he did a form with controlled speed and power - the description was impressive.  The show's scene was not.

[Ralph]

7 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I have done forms extremely slow and precise, as fast as possible (and sloppy), and at 'regular' speed for practice and competition.  Each one teaches the mind and muscle memory in a different way.

 

When I go as fast as possible, I'm training my mind to to work quickly.  When I go extremely slowly I have more time to notice precise positioning - toes pointed correctly, knee bent properly, arm at right angle, etc.

 

I've done this with weapons and empty hand.  During the same form, I will speed up and slow down based on what makes sense and what I'm trying to accomplish during a given portion of the form.  If you don't train with "power and speed" how do you expect to perform with it?

 

For the show, I would have expected to see Lan performing at a competition pace with controlled power and speed.  No sloppiness and each move precise.

 

I forget which book, but when Egwene 'found' Lan with the Green who had saved him, he did a form with controlled speed and power - the description was impressive.  The show's scene was not.

 

But it was meant to show two Warders practising together while chatting. So what would you expect? 

[DojoToad]

Just now, Ralph said:

 

But it was meant to show two Warders practising together while chatting. So what would you expect? 

What is the point of showing that - they have the campfire for chatting.

 

I would expect to be impressed when I see Warders practicing.

[DaddyFinn]

27 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

What is the point of showing that - they have the campfire for chatting.

 

I would expect to be impressed when I see Warders practicing.

Are you implying that warders should always practice fast? Why?

[DojoToad]

7 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Are you implying that warders should always practice fast? Why?

I'm implying that the show should use it's time wisely.  They are under severe time constraints.  If they are going to take the time to show Warders practicing - make them look impressive.

 

So no, I'm not implying that they should always practice fast.

[Ralph]

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I'm implying that the show should use it's time wisely.  They are under severe time constraints.  If they are going to take the time to show Warders practicing - make them look impressive.

 

So no, I'm not implying that they should always practice fast.

 

But the conversation also adds