full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[notpropaganda73]

19 minutes ago, Joe B said:

I think some of these attacks stem from Rafe's own words:

 

 

Yep, I understand where concerns about the changes are coming from and Rafe's own views on a lot of this stuff. I suppose my point about those posts and negative reactions in particular, is that everything in the show is a confirmation of that for a lot of these people. So every decision, every change, every line of dialogue, is all in service to Rafe's own worldview, not to the books or the story. 

 

Again, this is more my impression of those hyper negative posts rather than people with criticisms who I think have fairly articulated them. And like I said, maybe I'm taking a leap with my impression 

[swollymammoth]

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

But for me the poor production values, on top of the bad changes just makes it all bad.

I think this is the rub. If the changes made the show good, then they wouldn't be a problem. As it stands, however, the show has tons of issues and many of those can be traced straight back to unnecessary changes that Rafe and his team have made. And these issues become even more noticeable because of the hit and miss production. 

 

On another note, I encourage anybody to go and watch the scene from GoT episode 1 where the Starks are introduced. It's the one that begins with Bran shooting his bow and ends with Caetlyn and Jon Snow looking at each other. That one scene is better than the WoT show in its entirety. The amount of information that it communicates about the characters via small interactions, blocking, and direction is extremely impressive. Really illustrates the divide in the talent level between that staff and Rafe's team. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by swollymammoth

[DojoToad]

54 minutes ago, Joe B said:

 

"But when the world needed them most, they built their wall with no gate, locked themselves inside and let the other nations of man burn." -Lan

My take: As Aridhol descended into paranoia, they walled themselves in. I'm not sure why they went with this, other than it was quick and easy to deliver.

Unless I missed it, they lost a big chance to explain how that selfishness turned to evil and consumed itself.  Explain that mashadar was the embodiment of the evil.  Would have taken all of 10-15 seconds.  As it was, I'd be curious to know what non-book readers thought the creeping black shadow was as it wasn't explained that I recall.  Oh wait, Moiraine is unconscious - Lan can't know that...

[Joe B]

 

11 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Unless I missed it, they lost a big chance to explain how that selfishness turned to evil and consumed itself.  Explain that mashadar was the embodiment of the evil.  Would have taken all of 10-15 seconds.  As it was, I'd be curious to know what non-book readers thought the creeping black shadow was as it wasn't explained that I recall.  Oh wait, Moiraine is unconscious - Lan can't know that...

It wasn't explained. Just evil grew and consumed everything that lived and the city has been abandoned since.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Joe B

[Elder_Haman]

Considering the part Shadar Logoth still has to play, we may find out more about Mashadar as the series goes on. Just because something hasn't been adequately explained yet, doesn't mean it won't be down the road.

[notpropaganda73]

21 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Considering the part Shadar Logoth still has to play, we may find out more about Mashadar as the series goes on. Just because something hasn't been adequately explained yet, doesn't mean it won't be down the road.

 

I am a little worried that they may merge it with Machin Shin. Honestly I have no basis for that worry other than it could seem like an easy way to make things a little simpler (even though they are very separate evils), or that having two incorporeal evils in the first 8 episodes will be too much. 

 

Edit: Just to clarify I realise that this would be a huge change that would have ramifications down the line with the cleansing, but it's just an unfounded worry I have in the pit of my stomach coming at it from a TV execs perspective of "Wait, there's another evil "thing" that you're sort of calling a wind or a fog? Didn't we just have one of those?" 

Edited November 22, 2021 by notpropaganda73

[Joe B]

12 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I am a little worried that they may merge it with Machin Shin. Honestly I have no basis for that worry other than it could seem like an easy way to make things a little simpler (even though they are very separate evils), or that having two incorporeal evils in the first 8 episodes will be too much. 

No, no, no. Machin Shin will appear as a silver gray fog within the ways ?

 

Now that you mention the black wind...Mashadar in the show reminds me of Machin Shin.

[DojoToad]

33 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Considering the part Shadar Logoth still has to play, we may find out more about Mashadar as the series goes on. Just because something hasn't been adequately explained yet, doesn't mean it won't be down the road.

But people who haven't read the books have no idea.  "What's the creepy black stuff?"

 

Lan already gave them a mini history lesson, another 10-15 seconds could have been enough for the short term.  Poorly executed.

[Harad the White]

Changes from the book to amazon or in other adaptations come in these categories:

 

Insertions: e.g. Nynaeve abduction, Aragorn's river trip. 

 

Deletions: Thom's moustachios, Tom Bombadil

 

Re-ordering: Nynaeve reaches Moraine, Aragorn reaches Helm's Deep

 

Consolidation: Dana darkfriend, Arwen Glorfindel

 

Redefinition: Dragon Reborn, Elf Warrior Maiden

 

Any of these can change the nature of the story, but none of them necessarily do.

[DojoToad]

17 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Changes from the book to amazon or in other adaptations come in these categories:

 

Insertions: e.g. Nynaeve abduction, Aragorn's river trip. 

 

Deletions: Thom's moustachios, Tom Bombadil

 

Re-ordering: Nynaeve reaches Moraine, Aragorn reaches Helm's Deep

 

Consolidation: Dana darkfriend, Arwen Glorfindel

 

Redefinition: Dragon Reborn, Elf Warrior Maiden

 

Any of these can change the nature of the story, but none of them necessarily do.

And the changes can be made well or poorly regardless of change to the nature of the story.

[TheDreadReader]

2 hours ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

I think it would too... But would Moiraine  know  this? Know this to the point where she can say, well that guy obviously wasn't the dragon... She would have to in order for that to be the disqualifier that confirmed the man was not the dragon. And if she knows that, that means she knows the dragon has shielding provided by the pattern (we would say plot armor). And it's not too far a leap to then presume the pattern is going to do what the pattern is going to do with the dragon reborn (the wheel weaves as the wheel wills.) And then what is Moiraine even doing in bothering to find the dragon, she might as well be off relaxing somewhere enjoying some tea. I hope they have a better explanation than the gentling thing that doesn't open a philosophical can of worms... (including such issues as I said a while back, if the dragon reborn can be a female, then yes the tower should just go about gentling every male channeler, potential dragon or no, etc. That way you can get the pattern to spin you out that much more desired, not going mad female dragon.)

 

Book Moiraine acts like she trusts the pattern to weave things in a specific way.  Just look at how quickly she accepts Egwene coming with them when they leave the Two Rivers.   She basically just says "Okay.  The wheel weaves as it weaves." and carries on. 

 

As for why Moiraine wouldn't just sit back and relax, that is kind of a chicken and egg thing.  Would the pattern allow her to sit back and relax?   Or, would it guide her to the two rivers at the right time?   You can never be quite certain either way in a semi- or fully-deterministic environment.

 

As for the whole female dragon thing, I think that is a something of a red herring.   I do think that it is going to have a plot consequence but not the negative one that many seem to expect.   You could easily see Liandrin making that very argument based on her introduction scene and it fits nicely with the events of the "vileness", Owyn, and Thom's backstory.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'm not necessarily sure it's this. I think that it's more that the Dragon would not permit himself to be gentled without putting up a fight. The man never even tries to channel. 

 

That might work as well.

 

Maybe a point in favor of that, is the attitude change that happens with Lan post winternight after Rand confronts Moiraine for the first time.   Lan watches Rand after the ferry sinking.  Lan only relaxes once Moiraine does when Rand confronts her the second time.

 

 

[Agitel]

46 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

But people who haven't read the books have no idea.  "What's the creepy black stuff?"

 

Lan already gave them a mini history lesson, another 10-15 seconds could have been enough for the short term.  Poorly executed.

 

Maybe. But how many people who have only watched the show and only each episode once (without rewatching) are going to retain it? I already see comments about too much lore going in one ear and out the other. I've noticed that more lore for those curious is in the x-ray trivia.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Agitel

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, Joe B said:

No, no, no. Machin Shin will appear as a silver gray fog within the ways ?

 

Now that you mention the black wind...Mashadar in the show reminds me of Machin Shin.

There's an idea; Manchin Shin, Mashadar, and the Dark Lord wrapped together in a neat bow. The Wolf King tackling Manchin Shin in the Ways, the Raven Prince besieging Shadar Logoth, and the Dragon takes on the Dark Lord.

 

 

[Beidomon]

I could absolutely see them combining Mashadar and Machin Shin. It would be as simple as explaining that a waygate was left open in Shadar Logoth. This would also allow the show to continue to avoid delving into the "complexity" of tainted Saidin (really, it isn't that complex, and yet we're 180 minutes and several lengthy monologues+narration into the series without it being explained). And the show's Mashadar obviously looks like Machin Shin anyway, so that is concerning. Would they really do this? Maybe.

 

Or maybe it was just just a lot cheaper on the effects budget to avoid killer mist? Hopefully that is the case, but is going to invite a lot of people who don't the books to say "wait - didn't we just see this stuff a few episodes ago?"

[flinn]

50 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Book Moiraine acts like she trusts the pattern to weave things in a specific way.  Just look at how quickly she accepts Egwene coming with them when they leave the Two Rivers.   She basically just says "Okay.  The wheel weaves as it weaves." and carries on. 

 

As for why Moiraine wouldn't just sit back and relax, that is kind of a chicken and egg thing.  Would the pattern allow her to sit back and relax?   Or, would it guide her to the two rivers at the right time?   You can never be quite certain either way in a semi- or fully-deterministic environment.

 

As for the whole female dragon thing, I think that is a something of a red herring.   I do think that it is going to have a plot consequence but not the negative one that many seem to expect.   You could easily see Liandrin making that very argument based on her introduction scene and it fits nicely with the events of the "vileness", Owyn, and Thom's backstory.

 

 

 I think in the books, her ready acceptance of both Egwene, followed by Nynaeve is because she can tell how powerful they are and wants to get them back to the white tower. It is not just a "wheel" thing, bringing in strong channelers gives advantages to her ajah.

[DaddyFinn]

32 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

I could absolutely see them combining Mashadar and Machin Shin. It would be as simple as explaining that a waygate was left open in Shadar Logoth. This would also allow the show to continue to avoid delving into the "complexity" of tainted Saidin (really, it isn't that complex, and yet we're 180 minutes and several lengthy monologues+narration into the series without it being explained). And the show's Mashadar obviously looks like Machin Shin anyway, so that is concerning. Would they really do this? Maybe.

 

Or maybe it was just just a lot cheaper on the effects budget to avoid killer mist? Hopefully that is the case, but is going to invite a lot of people who don't the books to say "wait - didn't we just see this stuff a few episodes ago?"

I could never visualize Machin Shin. The Ways are a dark place so the Wind wouldn't be visible outside of fire/channeling light. It was more like a "feeling" for me. An almost invisible wind that surrounds you and rips you to pieces.

Edited November 22, 2021 by DaddyFinn
Small typo that bothered me way too much lol

[Beidomon]

8 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I could never visualize Machin Shin. The Ways are a dark place so the Wind wouldn't be visible outside of fire/channeling light. It was more like a "feeling" for me. A almost invisible wind that surrounds you and rips you to pieces.

 

Yeah good call, I guess I always envisioned it as a creeping blackness that basically eats the light because it was described as "the black wind" in the books. If I were trying to depict it in the show, it would basically be what they did in Shadar Logoth except noisier LOL. I guess we'll see how the show depicts MC.

[DaddyFinn]

10 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

Yeah good call, I guess I always envisioned it as a creeping blackness that basically eats the light because it was described as "the black wind" in the books. If I were trying to depict it in the show, it would basically be what they did in Shadar Logoth except noisier LOL. I guess we'll see how the show depicts MC.

Yes, a blackness/darkness without a "form" or "body".

[Agitel]

We'll probably see some more downs at some point, but WOT just hit 70% on Rotten Tomatoes (critic reviews).

Edited November 22, 2021 by Agitel

[DaddyFinn]

Just now, Agitel said:

We'll probably see some more downs at some point, but WOT just hit 70% on Rotten Tomatoes.

Nice! Audience score has stayed at 83% 

[swollymammoth]

Has anyone talked about that sacred pool from Episode 1? Because here's the thing, they made way too big a deal about it for it not to be important. And when Nynaeve kills the trolloc, its blood cloud forms the Dragon's Fang/Aes Sedai symbol. 

 

Here's my theory: 

 

It's a saidar eye of the world (How very Rafe it would be to invent one of those, right? After all, there's always 2 eyes, so the existence of one suggests the existance of another. TOTALLY BACKED BY THE LORE YOU GUYS) and at some point towards the end of the first season, they're gonna end up back in Emond's Field so that Egwene can use it to do something like help Rand defeat the trolloc armies which are attacking Fal Dara. Like, Rand is channeling out of the Eye and Egwene is at that pool doing her thing as well. 

 

Calling it right now. 

[TheMountain]

9 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Has anyone talked about that sacred pool from Episode 1? Because here's the thing, they made way too big a deal about it for it not to be important. And when Nynaeve kills the trolloc, its blood cloud forms the Dragon's Fang/Aes Sedai symbol. 

 

Here's my theory: 

 

It's a saidar eye of the world (How very Rafe it would be to invent one of those, right? After all, there's always 2 eyes, so the existence of one suggests the existance of another. TOTALLY BACKED BY THE LORE YOU GUYS) and at some point towards the end of the first season, they're gonna end up back in Emond's Field so that Egwene can use it to do something like help Rand defeat the trolloc armies which are attacking Fal Dara. Like, Rand is channeling out of the Eye and Egwene is at that pool doing her thing as well. 

 

Calling it right now. 

I hope you're wrong, that would be really lame.

[DojoToad]

11 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Has anyone talked about that sacred pool from Episode 1? Because here's the thing, they made way too big a deal about it for it not to be important. And when Nynaeve kills the trolloc, its blood cloud forms the Dragon's Fang/Aes Sedai symbol. 

 

Here's my theory: 

 

It's a saidar eye of the world (How very Rafe it would be to invent one of those, right? After all, there's always 2 eyes, so the existence of one suggests the existance of another. TOTALLY BACKED BY THE LORE YOU GUYS) and at some point towards the end of the first season, they're gonna end up back in Emond's Field so that Egwene can use it to do something like help Rand defeat the trolloc armies which are attacking Fal Dara. Like, Rand is channeling out of the Eye and Egwene is at that pool doing her thing as well. 

 

Calling it right now. 

Totally backed by the lore?  I do not recall.  You have a reference?

Edited November 22, 2021 by DojoToad

[swollymammoth]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Totally backed by the lore?  I do not recall.  You have a reference?

I was meme-ing haha However, if a thing like that did happen, then I'm certain we would hear that exact defense (or something like it) from plenty of people eager to defend the show.