full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[DojoToad]

Just now, swollymammoth said:

I was meme-ing haha However, if a thing like that did happen, then I'm certain we would hear that exact defense (or something like it) from plenty of people eager to defend the show. 

Ah.  Went right over my head...

[Joe B]

"The last time someone brought the Dragon to the Dark One..." - Dana

Anyone else find it odd she didn't say the Great Lord? Is that purposeful to not confuse viewers?

 

Another thought...Is she saying Ishy brought LTT to the DO????

Edited November 22, 2021 by Joe B
Added a thought.

[Beidomon]

24 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Has anyone talked about that sacred pool from Episode 1? Because here's the thing, they made way too big a deal about it for it not to be important. And when Nynaeve kills the trolloc, its blood cloud forms the Dragon's Fang/Aes Sedai symbol. 

 

Here's my theory: 

 

It's a saidar eye of the world (How very Rafe it would be to invent one of those, right? After all, there's always 2 eyes, so the existence of one suggests the existance of another. TOTALLY BACKED BY THE LORE YOU GUYS) and at some point towards the end of the first season, they're gonna end up back in Emond's Field so that Egwene can use it to do something like help Rand defeat the trolloc armies which are attacking Fal Dara. Like, Rand is channeling out of the Eye and Egwene is at that pool doing her thing as well. 

 

Calling it right now. 

 

Well, your tongue in cheek theory aside, unless that's just a really cool natural location (can anyone confirm?), they put a lot of work into making that set for very little use. Mo could have had her discussion with Ninja Nyn anywhere. Same for her "Woodsman skillz" Trolloc slaying. Those things alone wouldn't seem to justify the effort for it have no other significance.

 

The dragon fang blood cloud- yeah pretty sure that as just OTT "symbolism."

[Beidomon]

3 minutes ago, Joe B said:

"The last time someone brought the Dragon to the Dark One..." - Dana

Anyone else find it odd she didn't say the Great Lord? Is that purposeful to not confuse viewers?

 

Another thought...Is she saying Ishy brought LTT to the DO????

 

Probably shouldn't overthink the book-knowledge of the writers, or lack thereof.

[Agitel]

18 minutes ago, Joe B said:

"The last time someone brought the Dragon to the Dark One..." - Dana

Anyone else find it odd she didn't say the Great Lord? Is that purposeful to not confuse viewers?

 

Another thought...Is she saying Ishy brought LTT to the DO????

 

To quote Jordan. "You believe Ishmael?" Same idea. Ishy says a lot of things about LTT in previous cycles. Doesn't mean what Ishy or the darkfriend says is right.

[Agitel]

33 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I was meme-ing haha However, if a thing like that did happen, then I'm certain we would hear that exact defense (or something like it) from plenty of people eager to defend the show. 

 

I think you misjudge where people have their lines for acceptable choices and dumb choices.

[TheDreadReader]

23 minutes ago, Joe B said:

"The last time someone brought the Dragon to the Dark One..." - Dana

Anyone else find it odd she didn't say the Great Lord? Is that purposeful to not confuse viewers?

 

Another thought...Is she saying Ishy brought LTT to the DO????

 

I've been surprised that this wasn't mentioned before this. ?

 

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Q: Ishamael mentions in prior Turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

RJ: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!

 

 

RJ also answered questions about what happens if the Dragon turned to the Shadow and the answer is that it ends in a draw.   One could consider the Breaking to be a draw.   But, I don't have any good answers on why they had her say that.

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[MasterAblar]

29 minutes ago, Joe B said:

"The last time someone brought the Dragon to the Dark One..." - Dana

Anyone else find it odd she didn't say the Great Lord? Is that purposeful to not confuse viewers?

 

Another thought...Is she saying Ishy brought LTT to the DO????

 

The Dark One line is probably to not confuse readers.

 

As for the other line, I don't find that suprising at all. Of course Ishamael didn't bring LTT to the DO, but third age people have no idea what the truth is when it comes to the dragon. Some say he broke the world, some say he saved it. Some say he fought the DO, others say he served him.

 

The DO is the Lord of Lies afterall, and Ishamael went so insane he began to think he was the DO. It's totally in character for him to brag about bringing LTT to the Dark One.

 

A major theme in the WoT is how misinformed so many people all, and the terrible consequences that arise due to people acting on that misinformation. Everyone needs to stop taking the character's lines as sacred truth about the WoT world.

Edited November 22, 2021 by MasterAblar

[WheelofJuke]

Appreciate everyone's comments and thoughts. 

 

Simply put, this series does not work.  "YA CW" was the term used, and it hits the nail on the head. 

 

WoT only works if the culturally rich world Jordon wove is accurately and successfully presented, and it's just not believable. I found myself laughing out loud at numerous points, and it wasn't over any of the jokes (never a good sign). Most of the exchanges between the leads were so cringe, it's just disappointing. 

 

I went in with low expectations...didn't expect...THIS hot mess. 

 

There are so many issues (most pointed out by others, so I won't repeat most)...but the ones that really stick out to me:

 

1. Not using the prologue to introduce LTT, the concept of the Dragon, and the Breaking of the World, was a majorly missed opportunity to set the world up in the opening sequences. Ditto not using the opening lines until the *end* of Episode 1. 

 

2. Thom's obvious prop guitar (not real tuning pegs) made his desultory lowering of masterful court bard to white-trash grave-robbing country act WITHOUT MOUSTACHES all the more insulting!! WHAT WILL ELAYNE TUG ON?! Will he give Rand his guitar to learn? Just needlessly dumb. I will say, the actor's fine with what he was given. It's just not Thom.

 

3. Why are the forests constantly backlit? In fact, all the lighting seems really bad. I don't know any of the technical terms for movie lighting, but it seems lacking.

 

It feels like every time they stick with something from the book the way it happens in the book (a rare occurrence), those were the moments where I sat up and was like "YES! That's what this could be....*sigh*"

 

Positives: the countryside is beautiful yada, I felt the battle at Emond's Field was nicely chaotic, and I'm fine with how they portray the One Source. 

 

All the random changes for no apparent reason detract greatly. 

 

I watch very few TV shows, mostly because of reasons like this. 2/10 after 3 episodes, will not be subjecting myself to any more of this dreck, unless there's some miraculous change of events. 

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

I watch very few TV shows, mostly because of reasons like this. 2/10 after 3 episodes, will not be subjecting myself to any more of this dreck, unless there's some miraculous change of events. 

Cool. May you always find water and shade.

[WheelofJuke]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Cool. May you always find water and shade.

I see you, Elder_Haman. 

 

I can hope the producers/showrunners are listening and willing to amend, but I fear they only hear the wind. 

 

I'll rewatch some time again maybe, someday. ?

[DojoToad]

30 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

All the random changes for no apparent reason detract greatly. 

 

I watch very few TV shows, mostly because of reasons like this. 2/10 after 3 episodes, will not be subjecting myself to any more of this dreck, unless there's some miraculous change of events. 

I'm with you.  If 4 and 5 don't turn it around majorly, I'm out as well.  I'm trying...

[AusLeviathan]

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

The Dark One line is probably to not confuse readers.

They start the show by throwing out the word Ta'veren without any explanation, they use both the Wind and the One Power to refer to the same power, they interchangeably use Fade and Eyeless, they use both Whitecloaks and Children of the Light, they use both Aes Sedai and Witch, they switch between the Dark One being after four or five people, they use both Tinkers and Traveling People, they throw out a ton of things with no explanation of what's going on in the first three episodes (the wolves, how the Whitecloaks subdue an Aes Sedai, Mat's Dagger).

 

Yet it's too confusing to have a Darkfriend refer to the Dark One as the Great Lord of the Dark or the Great Lord? No, it was a mistake on their part and rather silly because using Great Lord allows for easy portrayal of who's a Darkfirend. You can even tie it into Thom's explanation, "Didn't you hear boy, she called the Dark One the Great Lord, she's a Darkfriend".

 

It actually fits right with something Daniel Greene talked about, they've got this consistent issue where they'll get a character almost completely right and look like they really understand them only to have the character suddenly do something very out of character.

Edited November 22, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Windigo]

21 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Was going to post this is S1E1, but probably not a good idea. 

 

I'll re-watch when I can, but probably my biggest concern is them having to lop off entire branches of the plot tree - the Horn - gone; dreaming - gone; the Seachan - gone; the Breaking of the Tower - gone; half the Forsaken - gone. Morgase - gone. Entire multi-book plotlines and POV's excised completely.

 

OR...if they don't make some serious, serious cuts, this is going to feel like a mindless sprint through plot high points with minimal character development until we get to the slog, and then their edits to the slog will make it feel like a mind-blowingly good series.

 

I'm not concerned about the TV series' ability to get from Dumai's Wells the end of the series with incredible TV in about 4 seasons. It's the ability to get from the Two Rivers to Dumai's Wells in 4 seasons without losing much of the tapestry of the world and depth of character that makes the Wheel of Time great that makes me nervous.

 

Like LOTR, I'll be here, because we'll never get another, and I get that it will likely never be what we all would have wanted, but I just hope they find some time to let this breathe...

LOTR like DUNE took multiple attempts before getting them right, personally I think they are still trying with DUNE. 

[Joe B]

21 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

They start the show by throwing out the word Ta'veren without any explanation, they use both the Wind and the One Power to refer to the same power, they interchangeably use Fade and Eyeless, they use both Whitecloaks and Children of the Light, they use both Aes Sedai and Witch, they switch between the Dark One being after four or five people, they use both Tinkers and Traveling People, they throw out a ton of things with no explanation of what's going on in the first three episodes (the wolves, how the Whitecloaks subdue an Aes Sedai, Mat's Dagger).

 

Yet it's too confusing to have a Darkfriend refer to the Dark One as the Great Lord of the Dark or the Great Lord? No, it was a mistake on their part and rather silly because using Great Lord allows for easy portrayal of who's a Darkfirend. You can even tie it into Thom's explanation, "Didn't you hear boy, she called the Dark One the Great Lord, she's a Darkfriend".

 

It actually fits right with something Daniel Greene talked about, they've got this consistent issue where they'll get a character almost completely right and look like they really understand them only to have the character suddenly do something very out of character.

Fair points.

[Windigo]

20 hours ago, Chadouken said:

I haven't been to this site in years- I don't think my old account is even active anymore. After watching the first three episodes of the show I figured I'd come say hi and drop a few thoughts in here.

 

I really like the series. After reading through the comments in this thread I can totally understand why some people don't, but I'm not overly critical in general, and having read the source material I'm pretty intimate with the world so it's been fun to follow along and see the transformation onto the screen. That said, it did take me a couple episodes to get used to the casting. Some of the characters are very different than how they were described in the books (I can't believe Thom doesn't have moustaches). But after letting it sink in, I've come to enjoy the performances.

 

The setting is amazing and makes the world feel like it's in Jordan's vision so far. I was impressed with the channeling during the Trolloc battle; really cool depiction and close to how I imagined it. Whitecloaks were awesome and seem to be a pretty formidable foe. I feel like there's a lot the series got right so far, and also some things I wish were not left out. 

 

I'm invested in it and from what I've seen I have high hopes of it getting better and better as the story opens up.

 

I just hope they don't dedicate an entire episode to the color of Elayne's dress.

Welcome back, I too had to create a new account.  
after 20 + years of speculation and dissection of every prophecy and legend  I moved on to other things, so it is great to be back and talking WoT  again.   

I binged the first 3, where I let myself cringe and yell at the TV.  
Then I went back and watched it for what it is, a beautiful and engaging retelling of  books and characters who lived in my head for 25 years.  

Knowing what is to come I can appreciate the changes and see how and why they were done so that we can get to where the characters need to be, maybe there were better ways, but it works. I like the actors, and I hope to see them mesh even more and that some of the dialogue improves as they work out some of the kinks.  

 

[Arthellion]

17 minutes ago, Windigo said:

LOTR like DUNE took multiple attempts before getting them right, personally I think they are still trying with DUNE. 

 

 

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

 

 

 

I still sing this to myself sometimes. This and "Frodo of the niiiine fingers, and the ring of DOOOOOM."

 

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, WheelofJuke said:

Simply put, this series does not work.  "YA CW" was the term used, and it hits the nail on the head. 

Several folks on here have noticed it, including me. Evidently this reviewer, too:

 

“It's not that the show looks cheap, by any means. There are plenty of breathtaking vistas and vibrant, richly textured costumes and elaborate sets. It's just that it can't help but feel scaled down, reduced, distilled, made for television. Something about the quality of light in certain scenes seems a bit too sharp, too clean, for a world lit only by sun and fire. The sinister Children of the Light, for example, wear cloaks so blindingly and pristinely white, even as they trudge through muddy forests, that you can't help wondering about their OxyClean budget.”

 

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/20/1056816693/amazon-reinvents-the-wheel-of-time-for-the-small-screen-with-surprising-turns

[JenniferL]

1 hour ago, WheelofJuke said:

 

 WHAT WILL ELAYNE TUG ON?! 

Thank you for giving me and my husband and new thing to yell at each other when one of us is being ridiculous. 

[Harad the White]

The negative wave is back. I guess it's a sign of the times that people go out of their way to come to a site to trash the product and threaten (who?) that they're going to stop watching. Great, stop.

[Kudzu]

45 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Several folks on here have noticed it, including me. Evidently this reviewer, too:

 

“It's not that the show looks cheap, by any means. There are plenty of breathtaking vistas and vibrant, richly textured costumes and elaborate sets. It's just that it can't help but feel scaled down, reduced, distilled, made for television. Something about the quality of light in certain scenes seems a bit too sharp, too clean, for a world lit only by sun and fire. The sinister Children of the Light, for example, wear cloaks so blindingly and pristinely white, even as they trudge through muddy forests, that you can't help wondering about their OxyClean budget.”

 

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/20/1056816693/amazon-reinvents-the-wheel-of-time-for-the-small-screen-with-surprising-turns

 

I think I understand the complaint about the lighting, but I don't share it. I think we've been conditioned to think dark and gritty equals realistic, which isn't actually reality. The way it's shot looks real to me. I've spent quite a lot of time hiking through dense forests, they are vivid and colorful and pretty bright, in full daylight. The open forests we see them in wouldn't be much darker than an open field.

 

The too clean argument I don't get at all, look at the hems of the Whitecloak's pants, they are pretty filthy. There are multiple scenes where people are covered in grime, where it makes sense.

[Harad the White]

LoTR homages:

 

The overhead shot of the horses galloping through the plain recalls the Nazgul chasing Arwen and Frodo.

 

Rand telling Matt that the tale of him being chilly will be told, recalls Frodo telling Sam, the story of Sam the Steadfast.

[Harad the White]

Btw, has Matt's tumbling dice missed it's chance or will it appear?

[Vambram]

17 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Btw, has Matt's tumbling dice missed it's chance or will it appear?

 

So far, the only times we've seen Mat's dice is in episode 1 there inside the Winespring Inn. 

However, I don't believe that we will have Mat's dice tumbling around inside of his head until season 2.