tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[Sabio]

16 minutes ago, 7th age said:

 

Not sure what you saw that makes you think what he did was impressive besides not going over to the dark( I kinda liek their conversation and Fares makes an excellent Ishy, on the other hand I feel this kind of discussion is too aMoL).

What I saw was Rand channeling through a Sa angreal that "increases his power a hundredfold", yet the power he wields is clearly below what Nynaeve wields on several occasions, so either the Sa angreal doesnt amplify the power that much or Rand must be pretty weak.

 

More importantly though, rewatch the sequence when he channels.( 44:20)

1. He breaks the seal/eye

2. If you watch closely you can see Ishy smiling at the last second before they cut away to Rand.

 

Once it becomes clear, that Ishy isnt dead and that now the Forsaken are loose I dont see how anyone could count this as a win.

 

I asked this earlier in the thread but didnt get a reaction,  can anyone tell me any upside of what Rand and M. did here?

He/They didnt get  Horn or Banner, he didnt save the army, he very clearly breaks the seal/eye and since no other forsaken are there (i.e. showing that the seals broke/weakened before and not as a consequence of Rands channeling) I can only presume that this is the moment where the Dragon frees them from their prison....

 

I was thinking that, what exactly did Rand save?  Had he not ventured to the Eye what would have been different?  Ishy would still have been free, the DO would have been no closer to being free, Trollocs still would have attacked.  In the end, his going to the Eye really didn't accomplish anything.  All it did was give Moiraine a stilling story arc which according to Rafe was to give Lan and her a dramatic soul searching story arc for next season.  Where they examine their relationship with one another.  As much as I liked the Ishy trying to tempt Rand at the Eye, I really didn't see what it accomplished.

[Tamal]

Hi!

I signed up for this forum due to the last episode, I'm afraid to say. I wish the circumstances were better. 

 

What an abomination. I stuck through the entire season, ever hopeful for what would at least be a striking visual representation of the most memorable section of the first book. A chance to be hopeful for the series, and somewhat for the integrity of the show's creators as well. I was disappointed to my very core, and my heart sank when one of my childhood heroes moment was taken away. For absolutely no good reason. It was an active decision on the producers/directors part, and it is nothing less than shameful. 

 

The fact that Judkins is now referencing the books as a defense for the deprived decision of having a small group of non-Aes Sedai rivaling the power of the (newly unveiled) Dragon Reborn is ironic in the most terrible way conceivable. 

 

As many others have, I also cancelled my amazon subscription because of this. I really feel fans of the books need to be strong and assertive in saying that this is not acceptable. The work of Robert Jordan deserved better than this. It's an insult, and the lengths the showmakers have gone to decimate the world and frame of the books is despicable and disrespectful. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Tamal

[Ryrin]

20 minutes ago, Sabio said:

I was thinking that, what exactly did Rand save?  Had he not ventured to the Eye what would have been different?  Ishy would still have been free, the DO would have been no closer to being free, Trollocs still would have attacked.  In the end, his going to the Eye really didn't accomplish anything.  All it did was give Moiraine a stilling story arc which according to Rafe was to give Lan and her a dramatic soul searching story arc for next season.  Where they examine their relationship with one another.  As much as I liked the Ishy trying to tempt Rand at the Eye, I really didn't see what it accomplished.

Did Rafe say Moiraine was stilled or shielded?

[Sabio]

He could be using Aes Sedai word play, he never says stilled but doesn't correct the question either.  Maybe he views stilling and the shield being tied off as the same thing.  Stilling would make sense, you could have Nyn heal it later.

 

For a moment, I was convinced you might actually kill Moiraine, but I didn't at all expect her to be stilled. What does this mean for her role in the story?

Looking at Season 2 and what's to come for us, the characters who have almost nothing to do in Book 2 is Moiraine, and Lan, who are number one and two on the call sheet. You can't really sideline Rosamund Pike and Daniel Henney in a season of television. So we talked about Season 2 and Season 3 and what they look like in the writers' room while we were doing Season 1, so we could set it up correctly in the finale. That was the biggest story we had to figure out how to tell -- what is the Moiraine and Lan story in Season 2? They don't really have anything in the book. So we looked at the chapter that they have, and it really is so much about their relationship. Digging into it, and asking, "What's the core that exists there between the two of them when you really, really dive in?" Hopefully, we set them up in a place at the end of Season 1 that will really take that chapter of what they have to do in Book 2, and make you feel like there's a whole season worth of story of their relationship in there, and Moiraine putting back the pieces of who she really is.

Where did you look to think about what it means for a Warder when his Aes Sedai is stilled?

Yeah, so the one thing that's also interesting, you'll see, is that Moiraine masked the bond between her and Lan before the Eye of the World. So that loss of connection between the two of them is something that really is going to play a big role in Season 2 because they no longer have that currency of communication with each other. So what does that mean for their relationship?

[Weird_Old_Lady]

On 12/24/2021 at 1:26 PM, Gothic Flame said:

It does seem to indicate that "wilders" are more formidable that those that are Tower-trained 

Well, yes. In some ways they are. The Three Oaths limit both violence they can do and their life spans. I thought the dynamic of that in the books was awesome to think about.... The pros and cons of the Three Oaths, ya know?

 

 

Also. I'm sorry, but I think some of you forgot that anything Nynaeve the Wisdom chooses to do is obviously the right and only thing to do because she is the Great Protector of us all.

[WhiteVeils]

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

The whole thing is plot foolishness.  The Seanchan aren't sending a tidal wave to a deserted beach to drown one girl.  They conquer and make people reswear their oaths.  Bah humbug

They didn't send the tidal wave after the girl...that's pretty obvious. The tidal wave is a wall attack and is taking on the entire coastline. This scene just focuses on a part that doesn't show the rest of the area where there are cities, etc.  

There is no place that I can remember in the books where a damane actually on a leash needs to talk or has a conversation other than grovelling or noticing someone else channeling.  If they can't talk, they can't point out channeling from others very well, which gives some more power to the Westlanders.  In addition, I don't think the muzzles are part of the a'dam.

[Sabio]

Seems rather pointless to tidal wave a long stretch of coast if your target is a village.  Clearly it's meant to awe the viewer, but it's rather pointless to do.  Which is why I thought it would have a better effect to have the people in Falme standing there watching the tidal wave come, then just a little girl alone on a beach.

[Weird_Old_Lady]

On 12/24/2021 at 4:29 PM, Mailman said:

It also leads us to believe that Lan who has travelled with Moiraine for over 20 years and is considered a excellent tracker and incredible at disguising trails has not noticed the tell.

 

Simply unbelievable.

 

On 12/24/2021 at 4:31 PM, Mailman said:

He would have had to disguise trails during that time and its 20 years.

Scouting would also mean checking enemies are not approaching you from behind as well.

Yeah this actually bothered me. I might forgive it if they play it off juuuuust right, like Nynaeve and Lan whisper about it sometimes but refuse to tell Moiraine or ANYONE what it is, or something little thing on the trail now and then, nothing major noticeable but both of them see something on the ground and smile and catch each other's eyes and smirk or something.

 

Or maybe y'all should join my cult.??????‍♀️

[VooDooNut]

I guess I'm confused at how trails are even hidden?

 

So, in addition to scouting backwards and forwards, left and right, Lan also has time to repeatedly double-back and remove any broken branches, dropped items, horse crap, etc. etc.? It seemed unrealistic in the books no matter how good Lan was. It seems equally unrealistic in the show. Moiraine has a "tell" just like Lan can balefire all proof of a medium-sized group of horses and riders traipsing through the forest.

[Sumareh]

Reading the other posts I concluded that most people issues come from the bad writing and bad acting in the show, especially from Egy, Rand, Nyn and Perrin.

 

 

 

There were many changes with Mat, but most people are curious about where they are going with it. The introduction of Ishy was completely different but people liked because... acting (mostly)!

 

It's not the case with the other characters.

 

The writing doesn't help, but the fact that they can't act well enough to make people care it's crucial.

 

It makes me wonder if the showrunners were counting too much on the other actors to carry the series and if this is the reason the show has focused so much on the Aes Sedai.

 

Unfortunately, I am looking forward for season 2. But I wish you all luck!!

[Bruan]

9 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I guess I'm confused at how trails are even hidden?

 

So, in addition to scouting backwards and forwards, left and right, Lan also has time to repeatedly double-back and remove any broken branches, dropped items, horse crap, etc. etc.? It seemed unrealistic in the books no matter how good Lan was. It seems equally unrealistic in the show. Moiraine has a "tell" just like Lan can balefire all proof of a medium-sized group of horses and riders traipsing through the forest.

covering a trail (or making it look like something else. Or setting a false trail somewhere else) isn’t an impossible thing. It would be something I’d expect someone with tracking and scouting skills to be able to do. It’s not even unusual thing to see in TV. It’s come up in a few westerners.

 

as for the tell, it wouldn’t be something most would call a tell. But something unique that wouldn’t be picked up by most trackers, therefore probably wouldn’t have been hidden by the skilled tracker trying to mask the trail.

 

all that being said, Moraine and Rand probably wouldn’t be covering their tracks and definitely wouldn’t be doing so with any significant skill. It seems rather dumb that Lan wouldn’t be able to just head out and track them himself without Nyneave’s ‘tell’. Especially since he would have a pretty good idea where they were going in the first place.

[Guire]

9 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I guess I'm confused at how trails are even hidden?

 

So, in addition to scouting backwards and forwards, left and right, Lan also has time to repeatedly double-back and remove any broken branches, dropped items, horse crap, etc. etc.? It seemed unrealistic in the books no matter how good Lan was. It seems equally unrealistic in the show. Moiraine has a "tell" just like Lan can balefire all proof of a medium-sized group of horses and riders traipsing through the forest.

A large group moving on soft ground will leave signs he can't clean up.  In books they stayed on road to make it harder to distinguish them from other travelers.  Air borne trackers( crows and Drakghar) were way trollocs tracked them at speed in EotW.  Also Trolloc groups used horns to coordinate and drive group into traps.  Simply adding horns to scene before Shadar Logoth would have made Lan seem much more competent.  Nyn should have just said she trailed Trollocs to find them.  Makes sense no fuss.  Lan should have just set out in general direction of eye since its now fixed then followed trail through blight which seems much less alive in show version.  This however would have taken away multiple opportunities to show Nyn excelling while men are sticky poopoo heads.

[bryce0110]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

I was thinking that, what exactly did Rand save?  Had he not ventured to the Eye what would have been different?  Ishy would still have been free, the DO would have been no closer to being free, Trollocs still would have attacked.  In the end, his going to the Eye really didn't accomplish anything.  All it did was give Moiraine a stilling story arc which according to Rafe was to give Lan and her a dramatic soul searching story arc for next season.  Where they examine their relationship with one another.  As much as I liked the Ishy trying to tempt Rand at the Eye, I really didn't see what it accomplished.

It seems that Ishy tricked Rand into breaking one of the seals on the Dark One's prison, which is an interesting plot point that I like. This finale shapes up to be a big loss for our characters.

[Guire]

7 minutes ago, bryce0110 said:

It seems that Ishy tricked Rand into breaking one of the seals on the Dark One's prison, which is an interesting plot point that I like. This finale shapes up to be a big loss for our characters.

The Ishameal character introduced in Eg and Nyn's dreams early instead of jump scare Ish would have made question of Dragon more interesting and may have allowed more male character development while still keeping mystery.  Ish and Nyn in dreams would have been sweet.  

[Joe B]

Okay. I made it through 10 pages, but gave up. My apologies if someone has already mentioned it (or maybe I'm wrong). This is minor, but I can't stop thinking about it....

 

I've always thought that masking the bond was a mental trick, like ignoring the weather, that has nothing to do with the power. I've googled, and people seem to think it is a thing that only chandlers can do. I seem to recall that Robert Jordan said it was easier for AS because they are used to doing the mental part, i.e., ignoring the heat.

 

With all that said:

1. If true it is a mental exercise, why does Moirane infer that she can't unmask the bond because "I can't touch the source".

2. Maybe it is AS word play and she is saying she is in no mental state to concentrate enough, because she was just pwned by Ishy and is coming to terms with being shielded.

3. I am certain she is not "stilled" and is shielded. I believe the bond would have gone bye-bye if she were severed, and Lan would have felt it.

4. I am enjoying the show for a show. However, I am having difficulty with the dissonance created by my book knowledge. It hurts.

[bryce0110]

1 minute ago, Guire said:

The Ishameal character introduced in Eg and Nyn's dreams early instead of jump scare Ish would have made question of Dragon more interesting and may have allowed more male character development while still keeping mystery.  Ish and Nyn in dreams would have been sweet.  

Oh yes. I wanted crazy Ba'alzamon so bad during the dream sequences. I wanted him to speak with them, taunt them a bit.

[Guire]

8 minutes ago, bryce0110 said:

Oh yes. I wanted crazy Ba'alzamon so bad during the dream sequences. I wanted him to speak with them, taunt them a bit.

Ish taunting Egwene with her becoming a strong Aes Sedai that saves the world while Rand's dream was settling into Tam's house with Joiya and her would have made a nice counterpoint and made Rand's decision be more visibly correct.

[Mailman]

15 minutes ago, Joe B said:

Okay. I made it through 10 pages, but gave up. My apologies if someone has already mentioned it (or maybe I'm wrong). This is minor, but I can't stop thinking about it....

 

I've always thought that masking the bond was a mental trick, like ignoring the weather, that has nothing to do with the power. I've googled, and people seem to think it is a thing that only chandlers can do. I seem to recall that Robert Jordan said it was easier for AS because they are used to doing the mental part, i.e., ignoring the heat.

 

With all that said:

1. If true it is a mental exercise, why does Moirane infer that she can't unmask the bond because "I can't touch the source".

2. Maybe it is AS word play and she is saying she is in no mental state to concentrate enough, because she was just pwned by Ishy and is coming to terms with being shielded.

3. I am certain she is not "stilled" and is shielded. I believe the bond would have gone bye-bye if she were severed, and Lan would have felt it.

4. I am enjoying the show for a show. However, I am having difficulty with the dissonance created by my book knowledge. It hurts.

Its something I'm not sure was ever mentioned in the books as to what happens to a already bonded warder if the channeler is stilled.

 

The only thing that I can draw a parallel from is that the Min was able to bond Rand without being able to channel herself so I am not sure being stilled or gentled in itself would actually break a pre existing bond.

 

I'd hypothesize that the bond is not directly connected to the ability to channel but to the body. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Mailman

[7th age]

On 12/25/2021 at 12:39 AM, Brytac said:

Thank god the Game of Thrones shown makers didnt think like the WOT ones did.

 

Thats why GOT became a worldwide mega hit, they didnt mess around and think 'hey, you know what, wouldnt it be cool if Eddard jumped up and stabbed Joffrey and then flew away on a Superwoman version of Caitlyn stark'...coz...hey that would be cool!!

 

They knew the books were popular for a reason...and were clever enough to follow the story even though a few minor details were changed.

 

 

Thats not entirely true though is it?

They already changed some bits in the early seasons(almost stopped watching it after episode one due to them making Drogo rape Daenaerys and I while I liked the Tywin/Arya bit in season 2 I was very much disappointed we didnt get any weasel soup) and then had to invent new stuff later on and we all know how that turned out (the total clusterfuck started in season 5, not 8. people just chose to ignore it because of nice action scenes and the hope it would somehow fit together at the end instead of just being a series of "shocking" moments).

 

Of course this just strengthens your point. GoT was succesfull where they followed the Bookscript and failed where they deviated from it.

 

For me this is semi true for this series as well.  I somewhat enjoy the analyzing and there are a lot of changes I can understand due to change of medium (the logain bits/ep 4 was excellent and for me there is no hard deviation from the books, as this story was unfolding in the background and all the small scenes showing  AS/warders just made for excellent worldbuilding for the Nonbookies), or due to things that are annoying but out of the producers hands (cuts due too budget/time restraints and Mat actor leaving).

 

Where I really have problems are the sometimes rather small changes that I cant explain/understand in these terms. The whole ep.5 Steppin storyline comes to mind(ep4. Stepping and Kerene were awesome for introducing warder/AS relationship).

Making Egwene killing/stabbing Whitecloaks but not Perrin(after fridging his wife I was sure they were going to cut the whitecloak capturing of them due to time issues, but then they leave most of that except the part that actually has consequences throughout the later books???)

 

And then there are the somewhat small but clearly ideologicaly motivated changes to Agelmar and the Borderlanders, why make him disrespectful towards AS, dismissive of the Shadow as a threat and the opinions of others in general, have him refuse the armor of his ancestors  and instead have his sister wear it??? . The whole idea of the women (and children?????????) staying to defend the city is a 100% reversal of Borderlander culture.

In a world mostly dominated by women this was the one thing women were not allowed, it ties into their whole chivalry thing (rather die then let a women take a wound etc.) plus this always seemed supremly realistic to me. I know RJ once said that out of all the characters he felt he had done the soldiers best and while Im not a soldier myself I have worked with quite a few of them. You can ask people to die and If they feel that doing so will protect their loved ones quite a few will be willing to take on gigantic risks. Tell someone that they should fight a hopeless battle, only so that their wife and kids can follow them into the grave and any decent parent/husband would take their family and run asap.

 

 

[Chadouken]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

Seems rather pointless to tidal wave a long stretch of coast if your target is a village.  Clearly it's meant to awe the viewer, but it's rather pointless to do.  Which is why I thought it would have a better effect to have the people in Falme standing there watching the tidal wave come, then just a little girl alone on a beach.

What we obviously didn't see is that the Seanchan are avid surfers, and after a long journey they just wanted to catch the most righteous wave possible.

[jh557]

6 hours ago, Skipp said:

We never actually learned how Angreal and Sa'angreal are made.  So this is an interesting interpretation of it and why they are so rare. 

 

Like imagine angreal are made by a single channeler sacrificing all of their power to make one and Sa'angreal are mutliple channelers combined sacrificing their power to make them.  Kinda like something an old age channeler might decide to do to give themselves a legacy.

I was under the impression that angreal and sa'angreal were made with a seed ter'angreal. I believe that Rand gave one to Elayne in the last book. I am pulling this all from memory, but I thought that he told  her the seed would weaken the amount that she could channel for weeks/months while she was using it to make angreal so she shouldn't use it before the Last Battle to preserve her strength. I didn't read it as being a permanent loss of power but could be wrong. 

[Joe B]

57 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Its something I'm not sure was ever mentioned in the books as to what happens to a already bonded warder if the channeler is stilled.

 

The only thing that I can draw a parallel from is that the Min was able to bond Rand without being able to channel herself so I am not sure being stilled or gentled in itself would actually break a pre existing bond.

 

I'd hypothesize that the bond is not directly connected to the ability to channel but to the body. 

To me, it logically follows that if the 3 oaths go by-bye, then the warder bond does as well. 

In the Path of Daggers prologue: "Being shielded dulled and fuzzed the bond to your Warder, but being stilled snapped it as surely as death"

Edited December 26, 2021 by Joe B
Added source material

[WoTwasThat]

4 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

There are a sizable contingent in this community complaining about the treatment of the men characters in this season.  I have smiled smugly and said just wait for the season finale.  Quit thinking the show has it in for the male characters.  I fall on my knees to you now and beg your forgiveness.  You were right and I was wrong.  This show is going down a sexist path and apparently RJ's story is gonna be the victim.  

Agreed. I mentioned this in the overall season thread: the male characters are getting plenty of screen time but they are completely ineffectual. By contrast, we are treated to at least one if not more supergirl moments every episode. The Aiel fight scene was like something out the Matrix. In full labor?! Nynaeve saving the day with her awesome power, totally untrained… gah.

 

If I had to guess, I’d say this show was pitched to Amazon as being “a Lord of the Rings for Women” - and they’ve run with that. That would explain the massive deviations from the book. And why I’m so skeptical it will get better. The folks who are confident the show is gonna start following the books more closely - on what basis?

[Chivalry]

31 minutes ago, Chadouken said:

What we obviously didn't see is that the Seanchan are avid surfers, and after a long journey they just wanted to catch the most righteous wave possible.

 

So this was the WOT equivalent of that scene from Apocalypse Now...

 

"I love the smell of channeling the One Power in the morning. Tai'shar! It smells like...victory"

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, Joe B said:

To me, it logically follows that if the 3 oaths go by-bye, then the warder bond does as well. 

In the Path of Daggers prologue: "Being shielded dulled and fuzzed the bond to your Warder, but being stilled snapped it as surely as death"

So it does. Just could not bring it to mind.

Will have to assume that they used a a hybrid bond/first sister thing with Min then and that was enough to bypass the one power requirement.