tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Skipp]

21 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

We are not talking about the ratings. Stop. 
 

Anyways, I like the detail of Alanna’s Warders waiting outside the Hall for her with snacks. This is the second time we’ve seen her chowing down on a piece of fruit and it’s just such a great detail that the Green Ajah is the Ajah of enjoying life and that includes sex and food. 

It was a great moment that certainly belongs in the Tiny things thread.

 

I really liked Moiraine and Lan talking about masking the bond.

Also Moiraine being super Aes Sedai with her responses to Egwene about the location of the others.

[Vimak_the_Great]

I liked most this episode. Unlike 5 it didn’t seem like a waste and I could see where some of this episode could relate to future plots vs just being filler. 
 

That said, the changes to the ways and Mat being left behind made it a bit of a wash. Maybe they’ll redeem themselves with Mat but the change to how the ways works makes no sense to me and really undermines Loial. 
 

 

[CaddySedai]

8 minutes ago, Vimak_the_Great said:

but the change to how the ways works makes no sense to me and really undermines Loial. 
 

 

 

Well not yet - sofar. Loial may still be needed to navigate the Ways - which would work towards his need in the books too. 

 

And the other change only really affects how the Ways can be opened. So it is more of a later problem rather than a now problem. 

 

And it could be that channelers are needed, that maybe there are also ter’angreal like the leaf to allow non channelers can use it. Or a combo of the two. 

 

Maybe most waygates have the leaf or other means, but this one does not due to its proximity to Tar Valon so it was removed for safety reasons (both for the city and for wayward travelers entering the dangerous Ways) and can now only be opened by a trained channeler. 

[Mirefox]

1 hour ago, JenniferL said:

Yeah, I was coveting that tea set. Where’s that official merch, Amazon? 
 

Personally, I think I liked last week’s better. I do think some events seemed a bit rushed. But I adored seeing Moiraine and Siuan together like that and the way they worked together to manipulate the Hall. It’s a bit of foreshadowing for when Siuan and Leane do that to the Salidar Aes Sedai, if they decide to keep that storyline. 
 

I commented to my husband last night that the plot modifications don’t bother me as much as I thought they would, but tiny changes to the lore and the worldbuilding stick out like a sore thumb. I have to sit with that for a minute and figure out why that is. 

I think lore/worldbuilding do a couple of things:

 

First, they set the rules and give the stories coherence.

 

Second, stemming a bit from the first, they set a certain tone.

 

With plot changes, you just think “oh, that’s different,” or “that’s not how O remember it,” but when they mess with the lore or the world the whole framework within which you see or read the story can be skewed.  

[CaddySedai]

To be fair, in a book format all these little side stories for worldbuilding are usually welcomed. 

 

It shows the fine line of transferring it to a visual medium because now we are all wanting the mains back in focus and less worldbuilding. 

[Vimak_the_Great]

37 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

 

Well not yet - sofar. Loial may still be needed to navigate the Ways - which would work towards his need in the books too. 

 

And the other change only really affects how the Ways can be opened. So it is more of a later problem rather than a now problem. 

 

And it could be that channelers are needed, that maybe there are also ter’angreal like the leaf to allow non channelers can use it. Or a combo of the two. 

 

Maybe most waygates have the leaf or other means, but this one does not due to its proximity to Tar Valon so it was removed for safety reasons (both for the city and for wayward travelers entering the dangerous Ways) and can now only be opened by a trained channeler. 

Great points, thanks for putting it in perspective ?

[jh557]

2 hours ago, JenniferL said:

Personally, I think I liked last week’s better. I do think some events seemed a bit rushed. But I adored seeing Moiraine and Siuan together like that and the way they worked together to manipulate the Hall. It’s a bit of foreshadowing for when Siuan and Leane do that to the Salidar Aes Sedai, if they decide to keep that storyline. 
 

I commented to my husband last night that the plot modifications don’t bother me as much as I thought they would, but tiny changes to the lore and the worldbuilding stick out like a sore thumb. I have to sit with that for a minute and figure out why that is. 

Really love that storyline because it shows major growth for so many of our Aes Sedai on both sides, and I hope it makes it in the show. 

 

Just my thoughts on the second bit. I think the little changes in lore and worldbuilding stick out so much because we as book readers had to read the books several times to really pick up on some of the subtle things that are associated with the lore or the worldbuilding/countries/cultures/power structures. Speaking for myself it was probably on my third re-read (and only Crossroads of Twilight maybe Knife of Dreams would have had been released at the time) where felt like I was really picking up more from those early books because I finally understood more about the rules of the One Power, the Forsaken themselves, the pettiness of the Servants of All, Daes Dae'mar, the Ways, the relationship/history between certain characters and countries, and so on that really changed just home much I had missed my first and even second times reading the books because RJ was so brilliant with his worldbuilding and foreshadowing. I think for me its a little bit of: I put in all that work (it was fun work but still literal work remembering all the history and learning all these things) and now they are going and changing the rules on me! And I don't think the changes have to be seen as bad because we have no idea at this point of time what the end result of those changes are going to be, but I also think we should be able to get on here and have discussions about them and their possible implications that keep from turning into labeling everybody as either a "show lover" or a "show hater" which seems to happen more than I would like to see and leads to very little actual fun discussions or theorizing and more back and forth wasted space arguing nonsense. I feel like everybody waited years for this to come together and wants to defend something one way or the other like the show writers have to be brilliant and could not have possibly missed out of an opportunity or done something better or that part of the book sucked anyway when it can be both or none or somewhere in between without having to waste pages of threads every week discussing ratings or when the show will be canceled. The "witty" one liners back and forth are not helping anybody. 

 

Just my 2 cents.    

Edited December 11, 2021 by jh557
spelling

[JenniferL]

Oh, I agree. Overall, I enjoy the show and accept it as it’s own thing. I have a couple things I dislike so far, but none of them ruin my enjoyment. I just want a place where I can discuss things like this with reasonable people. And I’ll do it if I have to ban every single one of you. ?

[CaddySedai]

Who else liked that the mashadar seemed to operate with a mind. After being pulled from Mat and in transit to the dagger it tried to get into Moiraine via the mouth?

 

I thought that was interesting. 

[Therese Sedai]

5 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

Who else liked that the mashadar seemed to operate with a mind. After being pulled from Mat and in transit to the dagger it tried to get into Moiraine via the mouth?

 

I thought that was interesting. 

That was a very nice touch. For a moment there I thought it was going to succeed and Lan would have to call for help. 

[CaddySedai]

2 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

That was a very nice touch. For a moment there I thought it was going to succeed and Lan would have to call for help. 

 

I was spooked too! Till i looked at her face, she almost seemed… amused by the attempt. 

[TheSmurf]

14 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

I just want a place where I can discuss things like this with reasonable people. And I’ll do it if I have to ban every single one of you. ?

Good morning Elaida Sedai ??

[TheMountain]

We have 6 episodes of character building for Nynaeve and Egwene, and 2 episodes left for Bland al'Thor to actually be a character in his own story.

Edited December 11, 2021 by TheMountain

[Arie]

He's going to dominate enough of the series.... let him fade for a bit. *hand waves*

 

He wasn't ever my favorite anyway... >.> XD

[CaddySedai]

Just now, TheMountain said:

We have 6 episodes of character building for Nynaeve and Egwene, and 2 episodes left for Bland al'Thor to actually be a character. 

 

They did say the first couple of books will be spread across two seasons and mixed up. 

 

I have a feeling after the Reveal that is not a Reveal (the Callandor of mysteries) that the second season will refocus on Rand. 

[KakitaOCU]

4 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Well, EotW is a pretty nice book full of adventure and tension. I don't think that a closer adaptation (which does not mean 1:1) would have been not entertaining for the viewers. 

EotW was a paint by numbers homage to Tolkien meant to appease what was expected at the time and hopefully allow the door open for RJ to write the rest of his series.

It reads nothing like the rest of the series, it works nothing like the rest of the series, the characters are largely wooden and show very little actual progression or development.

I'll be honest, before I read Wheel of Time I had been reading the Saga of Recluce by Modesitt.  If I had read EotW when it first came out, I'd have never picked up TGH.  But when I got around to reading it TDR had come out and I could push through all three before I had to make a decision.

[jh557]

50 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

Oh, I agree. Overall, I enjoy the show and accept it as it’s own thing. I have a couple things I dislike so far, but none of them ruin my enjoyment. I just want a place where I can discuss things like this with reasonable people. And I’ll do it if I have to ban every single one of you. ?

I mean we all should not love every aspect of the show or every aspect of the books. There are things in the books that I disliked. There are things in the show that I dislike or wonder how it will change the storylines, and I would like to reasonably discuss these. I feel like 10+ years ago before the books had actually finished you could not really get 5 book readers together in a room and get them to agree with certainty about a lot that was going to happen in the last couple of books as we all had our personal theories and favorite characters and what we wanted to happen, but we would type up those big long theories and discuss them and try and provide backing and/or try and discredit them in the comments. I expect there to be some arguing but logic and reason would have me believe that if you are not going to be open to counters or are not even going to give the show a chance after 6 episodes do not post on a forum dedicated to the show. I get it there are issues and changes that are hard to swallow but this is the show that we are getting regardless.

 

A month into the show has me talking about logic like a bloody White and thinking that I miss "the good old days", and I promise you I am not old enough for that. But I will digress and move on from this topic.   

 

   

Edited December 11, 2021 by jh557
spelling

[flinn]

 Yep. When Jordan was coming up with the idea of WoT, to get published LOTR was one of the templates. Once he was able to get published then he was able to go his own way in his story. WoT was a pivotal series in many ways.

[Ryan al'Thor]

Just watched it. Nice to see the ladies get it on. Were they in TAR in the flesh?

 

Sorry to see Mat go. Apparently he won't be in 7 and 8. Not sure what this means for his spar with the G boys.

 

So Moiraine thinks the DO is at the eye? Yeah no. This flicker didnt do Moiraine any favors in the world knowledge department.

 

Overall, it was pretty good. Non-reader wife  said this was her favorite. 4 is still my fave.

 

I'm more excited for 7 and 8 based on what I've seen/heard. Good stuff coming!

[KakitaOCU]

17 minutes ago, Ryan al'Thor said:

Sorry to see Mat go. Apparently he won't be in 7 and 8. Not sure what this means for his spar with the G boys.

 

Do we have confirmation on that?  I can see it, given the recast and the haste of the end there, but IMDB lists Barney for episodes 7 and 8.  

I've been trying to guess at where they're going with his story if he stays behind, but if it happened due to IRL stuff that makes things more clear to me.

 

[Yojimbo]

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

Interesting!  Our resident book expert Sarah has confirmed they have changed how Women can detect other female channelers.

 

 

And for another reason other than to hide Nynaeve from Moiraine.

So, another major departure from canon.  Because of.....reasons.    Heck, maybe it was for no other reason other than so that Moraine could say she was unaware Nyn could channel and not be lying.  Or maybe they just screwed up and are covering their asses.

 

This of course means that Aes Sedai would almost never find any new novices, since they would never sense they had the spark in them, unless they happened to channel right when they happened to be around.   Ugh.  And yet how then could Moraine be so sure that Egs could channel?   When did she channel in front of Moraine so that she might know she had the ability? 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Yojimbo

[Ryan al'Thor]

23 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

Do we have confirmation on that?  I can see it, given the recast and the haste of the end there, but IMDB lists Barney for episodes 7 and 8.  

I've been trying to guess at where they're going with his story if he stays behind, but if it happened due to IRL stuff that makes things more clear to me.

 

Not 100% confirmed, but everything Ive read indicates he isn't in the next two. 1-6 were filmed before covid, so makes sense I suppose. Bummer, I thought Barney did great with what he was given.

[jh557]

6 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

So, another major departure from canon.  Because of.....reasons.    Heck, maybe it was for no other reason other than so that Moraine could say she was unaware Nyn could channel and not be lying.  Or maybe they just screwed up and are covering their asses.

 

This of course means that Aes Sedai would almost never find any new novices, since they would never sense they had the spark in them, unless they happened to channel right when they happened to be around.   Ugh.  And yet how then could Moraine be so sure that Egs could channel?   When did she channel in front of Moraine so that she might know she had the ability? 

I mean from this aspect it only helps them to build the story of why there are so few novices. I know that probably does not make you feel better about it though. I really think that the Moiraine was not lying could be explained away by hedging words and her feeling it was the truth the Nynaeve would not be able to "channel" as in with conscious intent to channel due to her block and no training.  

 

And I know that we did not get it in the show and in the books I believe that it was Rand that healed Bela to make her keep up with the other horse if I am recalling correctly, but maybe in the show Egwene heals Bela during the running scene and Moiraine sensed it then. Or Egwene embraced the source when the Trolloc attacked her in town. Just speculation as it was not actually seen on screen which I know is frustrating as I had the same thoughts as you but maybe semi reasonable scenarios that might help it sit better  

[A Memory Of Why]

Overall I liked this episode more than I thought I would.. These last two episodes are obviously the eye of the storm getting ready for what's coming and I thought I'd get bored but was quite engaged.

 

First off:

 

Lil Miss Swaaan!! ?

 

Surprisingly enjoyed this flashback, though I was also put off with the farewell. Ended up having a D & M discussion with a couple of beers and realised how stupidly oppressed Tear is. Like peasants are basically indentured and owned by the lords and their brutal whims.

 

What I'm trying to say is; daddy is an asset and Lil Miss Swan is virtually exiled.

 

Though I admit it wasn't very well done, I hope they put a bit more time here so we can all be properly disgusted by the Tearan lords outrage at the Dragon's new laws.

 

The Hall of the Tower scene was awesome! I don't know what performance to praise the most:

• Suian - The Amyrlin in her seat in all her glory
• Moraine - Nobility with a touch of arrogance 
• Logain - desperation 
• Liandrin - but muuuum!
• Leanne - proper stank face with staff stomping skills
• The Sitters - Surprisingly excited to see these gal's
• Alanna's Bosom - definitely something going on here, suspected foreshadowing.! I'll have to think on it..

Great scene for the most part, don't know how I feel about Moraine being humbled to kiss the floor though, felt a bit far..

 

Still processing it all, more to come.. ?

Edited December 11, 2021 by A Memory Of Why
Sigh.. spelling...

[Hudson]

Getting more and more concerned.  Still like the actors but some of the changes....  Also, not sure how I feel about Moraine and Siuan.  Totally get they were "pillow friends" but this seems to paint them as more of a committed couple.  Least that's how I read it.  How is this going to impact the future relationships they both have in the books?  Eye of the world being the dark ones prison.  Huh!?  Wavy Wavy one power weaving instead of the leaf....why?  I think they're just missing out on so much of the depth.  I know sacrifices have to be made but it just seems like we're missing almost everything.