tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[chri5]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

 

Or maybe the world is more complicated than black and white and tiring assumptions about what's in the mind of the show runners. ?‍♂️

The best part of this comment is that you have the black and white symbol of the Aes Sedai as your image. lol

 

I totally agree with you.

[MaxZorin]

4 minutes ago, chri5 said:

If my choice is fewer episodes than I want, or no show, I'll take the show in fewer episodes.  

Amazon wasn't going to monetize the IP they paid for if Rafe walked?

Rafe's the only producer in Hollywood?

[JaimAybara]

Rafe could also approach them at the end of season 1 and say, “see how popular it is with 8?…it would be even more popular with 10.” I think he has some bargaining leverage after season 1 if it ends on a high note.

[Gothic Flame]

So...without Mat...an entire sequence of events gets invariably changed from the books; our three heroes won't go chasing Fain who stole the dagger; leading them to Falme where Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene are collared...and where there's a formation of White Cloaks nearby....

 

And Rafe with his crack troop of writers are going to somehow cleverly resolve this...

[Sabio]

The big problem is they have already started season 2, so any additions won't come until season 3.

[chri5]

Just now, MaxZorin said:

Amazon wasn't going to monetize the IP they paid for if Rafe walked?

Rafe's the only producer in Hollywood?

 

I don't pretend the know the politics or practice of bringing a planned multi-year project to market in the streaming market.  Not something I have been involved with.

 

I do know that if I was RJ2 i would not have turned down the chance to helm a multi-hundred million dollar show over multiple years because I didn't get everything I wanted.  Even if I wanted more episodes.

 

My real hope is that there are other scenes filmed, and cut due to the time restrictions, that we may see in an extended cut one day.  Doubtful, but maybe we'll have the Dark One's own luck on that front.

 

My real question for these streaming services is why the limit on episode length.  Even in GOT and The Mandolorian there were early episodes of S1-3 that would have been much better done with more time.  Probably a time problem, but adding content over time to increase rewatchability seems like a good plan for these type of tentpole streaming shows.

[Skipp]

Just now, Gothic Flame said:

So...without Mat...an entire sequence of events gets invariably changed from the books; our three heroes won't go chasing Fain who stole the dagger; leading them to Falme where Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene are collared...and where there's a formation of White Cloaks nearby....

 

And Rafe with his crack troop of writers are going to somehow cleverly resolve this...

Is it not possible for Fain to steal the dagger from the tower, since he was in TV, and then follow them to Fal Dara?  This could also be the reason to bring Mat back into the show?

 

Just because the path has changed doesn't mean it can't meet back up.

[chri5]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

So...without Mat...an entire sequence of events gets invariably changed from the books; our three heroes won't go chasing Fain who stole the dagger; leading them to Falme where Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene are collared...and where there's a formation of White Cloaks nearby....

 

And Rafe with his crack troop of writers are going to somehow cleverly resolve this...

I was thinking about this too.

 

I can think of some ways to make this happen, but it involves spoilers which I don't think are allowed here, and would be a bit OT.

[Gothic Flame]

2 minutes ago, chri5 said:

I was thinking about this too.

 

I can think of some ways to make this happen, but it involves spoilers which I don't think are allowed here, and would be a bit OT.

*shrugs*

IMO the only thing spoiling the book is the show.

 

*waits for it*

[Sabio]

Alot will have to do with why Mat was left behind (who knows next episode at the last moment he may suddenly jump in).  Was he left behind because the actor left or was it a plot thing?   I mean honestly I don't see why Moiraine couldn't just open the gate again to let him in.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Sabio

[swollymammoth]

3 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Or maybe the world is more complicated than black and white and tiring assumptions about what's in the mind of the show runners. ?‍♂️

I'm not making any assumptions. The proof is in the pudding. Over and over again, they've broken the lore to make way for their vision. 

 

Also, if you had actually bothered to think for a moment, you would have realized that the thesis of my post was "stop justifying changes by appealing to lore that the showrunners themselves have proven they don't respect." 

 

I'm criticizing this angle of discussion because it's tired and pointless. Obviously, I don't know what's in the showrunners' heads, and I don't care. All I care about is how flippantly they treat the lore. You may like the finished product, and that fine. But as I said, the proof is in the pudding. If the showrunners cared more about the lore than their vision, they would have changed their vision to suit the lore. It is unassailably true that this is not what happened. 

 

So can we stop appealing to lore to defend the show? If you like how a certain change turned out, defend it based on its merits. But please, just stop appealing to the lore. 

[MasterAblar]

Sorry spoiler 

Edited December 12, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Jaysen Gore]

7 minutes ago, chri5 said:

I was thinking about this too.

 

I can think of some ways to make this happen, but it involves spoilers which I don't think are allowed here, and would be a bit OT.

Check my post in the predictions thread to see how I propose 2 different ways to get Mat back where he needs to be.

 

Also, @Gothic Flame, this change WAS NOT the show runner's fault,. so blaming Rafe is not cool

Edited December 12, 2021 by Jaysen Gore

[chri5]

3 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

*shrugs*

IMO the only thing spoiling the book is the show.

 

*waits for it*

You forgot reading Winter's Heart  or COT or whichever book had that Perrin-Faile-Shaido storyline then. LOL

 

The main thing ruining the books for me is Shaido Faile. ?

Edited December 12, 2021 by chri5

[Spiritweaver1]

One of the things I love about having joined this community is watching the wheel weave the pattern of these threads.   I am wondering about the thread that says that Rafe wants to do a bad job and butcher the books.  Come on people, that  is just being a dark friend.  I am one hundred percent sure Rafe wants to do a great job and have a hit show.  It will make his reputation going forward.  I am sure Amazon hopes to spin this out into a whole bunch of tales/series that RJ never did.  Take Star Trek as the model for a money making reality.    Cut them some slack for Covid.  I believe, as I have said before, that they have made a fundamental tactical blunder which is to rewrite nearly the entire story.  They are using different teams for each episode so has to be very hard to keep this plot together in real time.  Folks are starting to talk.  If they can fix that and switch to cutting the fat they will be far better served and this show can be all it can be.  

 

In summary knowing what another human being is thinking is something even the most powerful among us can't do.  Talking intentions is a waste of bandwidth and doesn't help.   Talking perceived results in a less than Green Ajah way.  Walk in the light!

[swollymammoth]

6 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Just because the path has changed doesn't mean it can't meet back up.

I mean, so long as the Dragon Reborn defeats the Dark One at the end of season 8, everything's cool, right? 

 

Anyone can create a set of parameters in which a given concern is meaningless. 

[MasterAblar]

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I mean, so long as the Dragon Reborn defeats the Dark One at the end of season 8, everything's cool, right? 

 

Anyone can create a set of parameters in which a given concern is meaningless. 

Literally no one said the concern was meaningless. Simply that people are making premature assumptions without waiting to see how things turn actually out. As they’ve been doing since the beginning in fact. 
 

If anything is tiresome it’s the 37 582 posts that all basically have the same take utterly lacking in nuance which can basically be summed up as “The series is doooooooomed”.

 

Not to mention the super classy constant attacks on Rafe as a person from people who I highly doubt have met him and know basically nothing about him.

[Ralph]

14 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

It is unassailably true that... 

 

?

[Elder_Haman]

15 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

stop justifying changes by appealing to lore that the showrunners themselves have proven they don't respect." 

The showrunners haven't "proven they don't respect" lore. You don't approve of the choices they've made concerning the lore. Those are two entirely different things. If you don't like the change, it's a massive, world-breaking change. When someone points out that the change is actually consistent with something, the lore isn't important. Seems like you're the one who's trying to have it both ways.

[Yojimbo]

15 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Check my post in the predictions thread to see how I propose 2 different ways to get Mat back where he needs to be.

 

Also, @Gothic Flame, this change WAS NOT the show runner's fault,. so blaming Rafe is not cool

Has that been confirmed explicitly, that Mat didn't go into the ways only because Barney quit the show?   Or did he maybe quit the show because he disagreed with the direction they were goin to take his character?   

[swollymammoth]

29 minutes ago, chri5 said:

Just as you can choose to be disappointed in the show, we can choose to enjoy it how we like.

 

I enjoy finding parallels to the original and figuring out how they will still get to the same end result.  Just as the turnings of the pattern are described in the books.

"Getting to the same result." 

 

You imply that the result exists independent of the means. This is simply not true. Also, it requires a totally arbitrary definition of "end result." 

 

By that logic, the showrunners would be totally justified so long as the show ended with the Light defeating the Dark. 

 

This is a lazy take. Sure, season 1 is gonna end at the Eye of the World, but that just isn't enough for some of us. It isn't enough that the showrunners are just ticking boxes like this is some sort of travelogue bingo. 

 

I don't care WHERE the characters go. I care HOW they get there. Huge scenes like Dumai's Wells, the Eye of the World, Falme, the Stone of Tear... these are only cool because of what lead up to them. 

 

So anyway, this "getting to the same result" thing is just lazy. 

[chri5]

14 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I mean, so long as the Dragon Reborn defeats the Dark One at the end of season 8, everything's cool, right? 

 

Anyone can create a set of parameters in which a given concern is meaningless. 

Only if we get a cool Dumai Wells scene.

[TheDreadReader]

1 minute ago, Yojimbo said:

Has that been confirmed

 

Nothing has been officially confirmed beyond that Mat has been recast for season two.

 

[MaxZorin]

43 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

I took it as a standard extreme punishment in the TV-verse, kind of like how it was used in the AOL, so not unheard of. 

I take it as the coolest way the writers could come up with to get themselves out of the situation they wrote themselves into, with no care for the implications or ramifications.

Also not unheard of when it comes to this show. 

[chri5]

4 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

"Getting to the same result." 

 

You imply that the result exists independent of the means. This is simply not true. Also, it requires a totally arbitrary definition of "end result." 

 

By that logic, the showrunners would be totally justified so long as the show ended with the Light defeating the Dark. 

 

This is a lazy take. Sure, season 1 is gonna end at the Eye of the World, but that just isn't enough for some of us. It isn't enough that the showrunners are just ticking boxes like this is some sort of travelogue bingo. 

 

I don't care WHERE the characters go. I care HOW they get there. Huge scenes like Dumai's Wells, the Eye of the World, Falme, the Stone of Tear... these are only cool because of what lead up to them. 

 

So anyway, this "getting to the same result" thing is just lazy. 

But this is literally how the Wheel works in the books.  Each turning is slightly different.  Taveren exist to correct the parts of the weave that threaten to bring it off course, but they don't make it exactly the same.  There is drift, this is the Age Lace.

 

I'm sorry you don't like the way RJ1 built the world to change over time, but he did it not me.

Edited December 12, 2021 by chri5
clarity, or an attempt at it.