tv show spoilers S1E5: Blood Calls Blood

[Apsalar]

I liked this episode as well. I perhaps would have prefered if they focused less on Steppin, and more on the main cast members. But it does  however nicely show the nature of the bond between Aes Seda and warder. 

 

Tar Valon looks great. One thing I really enjoy in the books is the palace intrigue amongst the Aes Sedai. We have seen some of that so far in the series, and I like it - hoping for more.

 

I have no problem whatsoever with Loial not being as huge as he is in the books. He is one of my favourite characters from the books, and I very much like what little we have seen from him so far. 

 

I hope Eamon Valda is OK and we will see more of him.? The actor does such a great job conveying that sinister, but at the same time, polished impression.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Apsalar

[KakitaOCU]

49 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I seem to remember one shot of Loial that showed his feet and it appeared he was wearing 6 inch lifts.   My wife joked about Herman Munster shoes.   And she was surprised when I told her he was supposed to be an entirely different species too.   She just didn't see it, except for the hands. 

 

Not a great shot, but couldn't find the other I had seen.  But yeah, shoes are a bit lifted.  And the perspective makes him seem a bit smaller, but in reality he's about a head above Perrin.

[notpropaganda73]

1 hour ago, Deviations said:

Loial has an odd sense of grandeur (to me) in the books.  He comes off as young and unsure yet also wise because he's looking at humans through a different lens.  This effect is magnified through his height.

 

This isn't grandeur...  I'm sorry about the obvious over exaggeration with my example but I was shocked by the appearance of TV Loial (not in a good way).

 

 

 

It's one thing to find the appearance out of sync with our own headcanon and being annoyed at that, it's another completely to disregard his entire character going forward because he's not tall enough. 

 

 

[Andromedus]

I never expected them to follow the books line by line, it's impossible.  I went in to this hoping they'd nail the characters (and expect some changes - RJ wrote women pretty poorly IMO), the overall themes and important plotlines.

 

I think for a first season it's really good, and I'm confident the writing, editing and pacing will improve.  

 

I'm bummed for those that hate it, but you're never going to please everyone.  I know asoiaf fans who never watched got after the first season, just despised it from the get go ??‍♂️

 

Loial looks good, he can't be 10 feet tall in the show so I think the adaption works.

 

I do think it's a hit so it's going to be around at least 4-5 seasons which I'm thrilled for.

 

Also agree with others we need 10-12 eps per season moving forward (20 is crazy and too expensive will never happen, shows like walking dead get away with this by low balling actors and being cheap in other areas).

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Andromedus

[Beidomon]

I’m happy for people who can look past Loial’s fro and phony prosthetics and just enjoy him as a character. I can’t get over how fake his head looks. I don’t give a fig about the height if they could just make him look real.

[RextheDog]

honest confession to make...i was generally never that interested in Lioals character.....

[Theseus78]

42 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

I’m happy for people who can look past Loial’s fro and phony prosthetics and just enjoy him as a character. I can’t get over how fake his head looks. I don’t give a fig about the height if they could just make him look real.

I can get over the looks (the eyebrows are definitely wrong) because the actor just exudes Loial.  He does a great job. 

[TheDreadReader]

Since, I tend to think that the makeup for most fantasy races mostly look like crap anyway, I've gotten used to not paying too much attention to it.   I'm also a child of the 80's so mileages can vary greatly.

 

Overall, it is a very weird thing to get too upset over to me.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[Deviations]

2 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

It's one thing to find the appearance out of sync with our own headcanon and being annoyed at that, it's another completely to disregard his entire character going forward because he's not tall enough. 

Agreed.  

[Kudzu]

7 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Wouldn't be the only thing Rafe was wrong about.  How about a short ogier that looks like a muppet?  Too bad too, from what I'm reading the actor nailed Loial from his side of things.

 

Not really sure how you equate those two things. Loial wasn't Rafe being wrong, he was a deliberate choice. Being able to have Loial in all the scenes they want him, instead of limiting him because he's too expensive was absolutely the right decision IMO. He looks a lot better in the show than in the leaked still pictures, and yes, they absolutely nailed his character. He was a joy to watch. Whether he's "head and shoulders" or just "a head" taller than Rand really doesn't matter.

[DojoToad]

3 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

 

Not really sure how you equate those two things. Loial wasn't Rafe being wrong, he was a deliberate choice. Being able to have Loial in all the scenes they want him, instead of limiting him because he's too expensive was absolutely the right decision IMO. He looks a lot better in the show than in the leaked still pictures, and yes, they absolutely nailed his character. He was a joy to watch. Whether he's "head and shoulders" or just "a head" taller than Rand really doesn't matter.

And deliberate choices can be wrong, so I'm not sure I'm understanding your point.

 

And what does or doesn't matter all depends on perspective.

[Kudzu]

21 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

And deliberate choices can be wrong, so I'm not sure I'm understanding your point.

 

And what does or doesn't matter all depends on perspective.

 

My point is Rafe didn't misunderstand who Loial was or what he looks like in the books. He made a deliberate choice to present him differently due to the limitations of a visual medium. Whether the choice was right or wrong is subjective. If he thought the boys were 17 or 18 in the books and made choices based on that, then his original understanding of the books was wrong.

[notpropaganda73]

I rewatched it this evening and I think my initial impressions were mostly accurate, but the EF5 didn't get pushed to the background solely because of the Steppin arc, not as much as I thought. The episode is doing a lot not only with the Warder/Aes Sedai bond but also setting up White Tower politics with the Moiraine/Nynaeve, Liandrin/Moiraine, Liandrin/Nynaeve and Alanna/Moiraine scenes. That takes a good chunk of the episode. 

 

There is a good amount of Rand/Mat stuff here, more than I really thought on my first watch. My main issue is that Rand's main function so far has been to worry about Mat or think about Egwene. I really, really think it was a poor choice for him to talk about "a girl I knew" with the Jain Farstrider book, rather than his father and identity. If, as expected, we get the flashback to the fever dream, they really should've laid some hints in these episodes that Rand has at least been thinking about his father. All we have really gotten is Loial mistaking him for an Aielman, and Rand being forceful about being from the Two Rivers - but that would be a natural enough response. However, I do think there have been nice moments with Rand and Mat and their chat after Logain passed by laughing at them was really poignant and well done on both actors' parts. Mat's "Let's make a deal" passed me by on first watch, great line and delivery. 

 

Rand and Nynaeve's scene was really well done. Their relationship in the books was one I always really loved and I think the actors' here showed good chemistry together. I think that was the first one-on-one scene they have had the entire series so far. 

 

However I actually think the most short changed in this episode is Perrin/Egwene, and the Whitecloak confrontation is probably done the least amount of justice in terms of moments from the book that are replicated in this episode. I liked the Goldeneyes but the whole scene felt a bit clunky/poorly edited to me. I think Perrin needed a bit more violence to him to really have scared Valda, although as I type, perhaps he didn't realise that Egwene channeled to set him free from his ropes, so he would've thought that this man had burst from his constraints and now had golden eyes while growling... I guess I can get on board, but the editing/how the scene was put together didn't really hit that home run.

 

Anyway, I was severely underwhelmed/disappointed after my first watch, but upon rewatch the episode is probably stronger than I thought as a whole. However my main feeling/criticism from the first watch remains really, I think to try and articulate it a little better - what we are seeing of the EF5 as a whole isn't good enough to justify spending time on these other arcs like Steppin, as good as those arcs are. So we are getting a scene with Rand and Mat that is "fine", or "quite good", but the next time we see them it's really forgettable or outright bad. Because of that, it feels as a book reader like they are getting short changed when you are watching these new story threads. Again, I think the Steppin arc was really well executed, and it's a good idea to get the importance and implications in relation to the Warder/Aes Sedai bond across early for non-book readers - but I think they need to elevate our main characters to really be able to earn the time away from them, if that makes sense. 

 

That was a much longer post than intended xD

Edited December 7, 2021 by notpropaganda73

[Bruan]

23 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I rewatched it this evening and I think my initial impressions were mostly accurate, but the EF5 didn't get pushed to the background solely because of the Steppin arc, not as much as I thought. The episode is doing a lot not only with the Warder/Aes Sedai bond but also setting up White Tower politics with the Moiraine/Nynaeve, Liandrin/Moiraine, Liandrin/Nynaeve and Alanna/Moiraine scenes. That takes a good chunk of the episode. 

 

There is a good amount of Rand/Mat stuff here, more than I really thought on my first watch. My main issue is that Rand's main function so far has been to worry about Mat or think about Egwene. I really, really think it was a poor choice for him to talk about "a girl I knew" with the Jain Farstrider book, rather than his father and identity. If, as expected, we get the flashback to the fever dream, they really should've laid some hints in these episodes that Rand has at least been thinking about his father. All we have really gotten is Loial mistaking him for an Aielman, and Rand being forceful about being from the Two Rivers - but that would be a natural enough response. However, I do think there have been nice moments with Rand and Mat and their chat after Logain passed by laughing at them was really poignant and well done on both actors' parts. Mat's "Let's make a deal" passed me by on first watch, great line and delivery. 

 

Rand and Nynaeve's scene was really well done. Their relationship in the books was one I always really loved and I think the actors' here showed good chemistry together. I think that was the first one-on-one scene they have had the entire series so far. 

 

However I actually think the most short changed in this episode is Perrin/Egwene, and the Whitecloak confrontation is probably done the least amount of justice in terms of moments from the book that are replicated in this episode. I liked the Goldeneyes but the whole scene felt a bit clunky/poorly edited to me. I think Perrin needed a bit more violence to him to really have scared Valda, although as I type, perhaps he didn't realise that Egwene channeled to set him free from his ropes, so he would've thought that this man had burst from his constraints and now had golden eyes while growling... I guess I can get on board, but the editing/how the scene was put together didn't really hit that home run.

 

Anyway, I was severely underwhelmed/disappointed after my first watch, but upon rewatch the episode is probably stronger than I thought as a whole. However my main feeling/criticism from the first watch remains really, I think to try and articulate it a little better - what we are seeing of the EF5 as a whole isn't good enough to justify spending time on these other arcs like Steppin, as good as those arcs are. So we are getting a scene with Rand and Mat that is "fine", or "quite good", but the next time we see them it's really forgettable or outright bad. Because of that, it feels as a book reader like they are getting short changed when you are watching these new story threads. Again, I think the Steppin arc was really well executed, and it's a good idea to get the importance and implications in relation to the Warder/Aes Sedai bond across early for non-book readers - but I think they need to elevate our main characters to really be able to earn the time away from them, if that makes sense. 

 

That was a much longer post than intended xD

honestly, I’m not sure on how important all the warded bond stuff really is at this point in the story that it’s worth spending such a huge amount of time on. Or tower politics for that matter. Especially at the expense of taking so much time away from our key characters. Both of these things are points that can be hinted at and developed over time, even well into next season, without beating the viewers over the head with a giant, non-canonical exposition dump taking up a full half episode. Most of this time would have been better spent on Rand/Matt and Egwene/Perrin.

[Brytac]

Just watched Ep5.

 

Wow.  I am baffled why they pick a certain set of books to put on screen...then decide they dont like it and change it so much.

 

 

Whitecloaks doing a fair job...running round killing Aes Sedai within sight of the Tor Valon.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Brytac

[Mnemosyne]

On 12/6/2021 at 6:37 AM, LordyLord said:

I think this Review below succintly explains the issue with the episode and to an extent the whole series.

 

Its a very objective critique

 

 

I will preface this by saying that generally I'm really enjoying the show (episode 5 being the exception).

 

She's completely right about the camera angles and lighting making the sets look somewhat fake and lacking the "epic fantasy" vibe. It does take me out of the story. Regarding the VFX, I know Rafe mentioned there were issues with Covid, but there's no excuse for the other stuff. Hopefully this all improves in season 2.

 

The "overly-clean" costumes I don't mind because it feels like a part of the show's overall aesthetic (being more colourful and vibrant than GoT). Her comment about the Whitecloak haircuts made me laugh... pretty sure their hairstyles are intentionally meant to evoke the infamous "fashy haircut."

 

The awkward editing/pacing was a big problem in episode 5, like even if they had taken one bloody minute from Stepin to make Nynaeve finding Rand and Mat more realistic... not to mention the whole "One month later." Other episodes I found the pacing and editing to be fine, which was a big relief. Too bad Rafe didn't get the 10 episodes like he wanted... it would have solved all the issues with episode 5. Seriously Amazon, if you want the next GoT you've gotta go all in.

 

But I didn't find it at all out of character for Lan to be the designated mourner. It feels fully in line with his concern for duty and ceremony. There's a lot of anxiety about masculinity in this thread. I'm sure there will be lots of chances in future episodes/seasons for our male heroes to do their hero thing ?

Edited December 7, 2021 by Mnemosyne
Removal of an excess parenthesis bracket, lol.

[Brytac]

Was Shadar Logoth and Tor Valon the exact same set?  the curved street?

 

 

[ArrylT]

1 hour ago, Mnemosyne said:

The "overly-clean" costumes I don't mind because it feels like a part of the show's overall aesthetic (being more colourful and vibrant than GoT). Her comment about the Whitecloak haircuts made me laugh... pretty sure their hairstyles are intentionally meant to evoke the infamous "fashy haircut."

 

 

 

I have, maybe a theory - but at the very least an idea on that.

 

Basically we know, or at least can assume, that Earth is the location and it is the future.  While a lot of technology has been lost, and many uses of the one power also - I think this is a world that is really into hygiene.

 

There are plenty of bath or wash type scenes in the books.  I am pretty certain one of the favorite WT punishments was to send Novices, Accepted and even occasionally Aes Sedai to the kitch to do the dishes.

 

There is an Ajah dedicated to healing, and I think that the knowledge of germs would have remained with all the Wisdoms (or their namesake in other lands).   Even in the Aiel Waste I never got the sense that the world was dirty or messy.

 

I've paid attention to the actors - they look messy after fights & battles & chase scenes - and I appreciate that - but shortly after they are clean.  One of the most ignored actions on film/tv is the use of the bathroom (apart from a few notable exceptions like the death of Tywin Lannister) so I doubt that they really want to spend much time showing people washing their clothing (or the Aes Sedai spelling their clothes clean) or keeping hygenic.   But it still shows through from time to time. 

 

Heck apart from the bathtub scene in Ep1, I think they also showcased making sure the dishes were done.  Same with Dana - her cooking might be gross - but I have no doubt she cleaned up all the utensils.  Alanna made sure to take her tray of food with her when she left.  No leaving messes.  The Whitecloaks scrubbing Egwene down - yes obviously had more to do with a form of assault but also cleansing her.

 

I truly believe that the show, even if unintentionally, is trying to showcase a world that is clean hygienically speaking.  I just feel it is obvious that this is a world were people want to stay healthy.  No covid-19 here.  ?

Edited December 7, 2021 by ArrylT

[LordyLord]

1 hour ago, Brytac said:

Was Shadar Logoth and Tor Valon the exact same set?  the curved street?

 

 

Yes.Some youtubers caught it as well.

[Beidomon]

5 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

Since, I tend to think that the makeup for most fantasy races mostly look like crap anyway, I've gotten used to not paying too much attention to it.   I'm also a child of the 80's so mileages can vary greatly.

 

Overall, it is a very weird thing to get too upset over to me.

Oh believe me, I’m there with you. Labyrinth, Dark Crystal, etc. etc. But while I loved those as a kid I now expect a lot better from production these days. 
 

I mean it’s frustrating because I agree that they got the actor right, and the actor got the demeanor right, and that’s the hard stuff. And then go and whiff on the easier stuff like not making his prosthetics look cheap and fake. And now that’s all I can think about when I see him - how’d they screw up the easy part?

[grayavatar]

2 hours ago, Mnemosyne said:

The awkward editing/pacing was a big problem in episode 5, like even if they had taken one bloody minute from Stepin to make Nynaeve finding Rand and Mat more realistic... not to mention the whole "One month later." Other episodes I found the pacing and editing to be fine, which was a big relief. Too bad Rafe didn't get the 10 episodes like he wanted... it would have solved all the issues with episode 5. Seriously Amazon, if you want the next GoT you've gotta go all in.

 

I don't understand why Stepin had to drug Lan in order to kill himself. When they showed the knife missing I thought Stepin was perhaps a darkfriend gone to kill Moiraine. With Lan rushing off to save her. Why else would you drug a warder.

 

I think the scene where Nynaeve gives him the tea and Lan waking up could easily have been removed.

[grayavatar]

16 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Oh believe me, I’m there with you. Labyrinth, Dark Crystal, etc. etc. But while I loved those as a kid I now expect a lot better from production these days. 
 

I mean it’s frustrating because I agree that they got the actor right, and the actor got the demeanor right, and that’s the hard stuff. And then go and whiff on the easier stuff like not making his prosthetics look cheap and fake. And now that’s all I can think about when I see him - how’d they screw up the easy part?

 

In the books Loial is very expressive with his forehead and eyebrows but in the show that whole area seems like inflexible rubber.

 

[grayavatar]

2 hours ago, Brytac said:

Was Shadar Logoth and Tor Valon the exact same set?  the curved street?

 

 

I feel that the Tar Valon set was originally intended to be Caemlyn and then later modified to be Tar Valon. The books describe every stone carved by Ogier to be extreme artistry, shapes of animals and crashing waves etc. Tar Valon had too many straight lines in the architecture suggesting it was made by humans. The inn library Rand meets Loial in is supposed to be in Caemlyn also. I feel that the story was going to go one way first and then realising their limitations chopped and changed things around so it became Tar Valon.

[Mnemosyne]

23 minutes ago, grayavatar said:

 

I don't understand why Stepin had to drug Lan in order to kill himself.

 

My guess is that they needed to give Stepin an excuse to go see Nynaeve so they could show that she is still grieving the loss of her parents -- "the pain never goes away." But they've already shown that aspect of her character, e.g. when Lan translates her parents' final words. Unnecessary.

[themann1086]

7 minutes ago, Mnemosyne said:

 

My guess is that they needed to give Stepin an excuse to go see Nynaeve so they could show that she is still grieving the loss of her parents -- "the pain never goes away." But they've already shown that aspect of her character, e.g. when Lan translates her parents' final words. Unnecessary.

I assumed it was that Stepin was under a kind of suicide watch and that drugging Lan was his way of getting enough time to finish the job and die before they could get him to an Aes Sedai.