NY Comic Con Discussion Thread

[JaimAybara]

14 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

I mean the cosmetic change reason is obvious to me. 

 

The hilt of a dagger is all the parts together so you have the pommel (where the dagger traditionally holds the ruby) the grip, and depending on the artwork a quillon and crossguard. 

 

Moving the ruby forward up into the top of the hilt up by the quillon allows for it to be shown in scenes better. 

 

Laying on its side in front of cam? visible. On its side facing away? visible? facing towards? visible. In Mat’s hand being used? visible. 

 

This placement makes it less of a generic dagger and more of a statement piece. You will always know it is the dagger from Shadar Logoth and not some generic slasher. 

 

Putting it on the pommel means that when he is gripping it and the dagger is in use you wont see the ruby without some jarring camera angles. 

This makes visual sense to me regarding the dagger. Being able to see it on screen will allow for moving more of the plot forward without flat out talking about it. What I’m still unsure of is Tam’s Sword because I haven’t seen a Heron on the hilt yet, which I’m crossing my fingers for and am aware that it could be on the right side that isn’t shown. But here are some of the variations of heron marked blades from Fable Blades the third one is Tam’s: 

Edited October 10, 2021 by JaimAybara

[CaddySedai]

@JaimAybara

 

I would wager the heron being moved solely to the blade. (again the most likely to be seen while being used) Or possibly both like the imagery you showed. But if its an either/or situation its likely the blade thats gonna get the nod because that would be the part a swordsmith traditionally marks blades. 

 

Hilts can be replaced, its the blade that matters. Hilts also can be re-wrapped and lose their heron. 

 

now that would be a neat reveal, having the heron under a wrap that gets removed. ?

Edited October 10, 2021 by CaddySedai

[JaimAybara]

That would be interesting and I was thinking along the same lines to throw off book fans so we all get a reveal too. I just love so much all the interactions of “He has a heron marked blade,” that happens in Morgase’s court. Maybe that didn’t make the cut though. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by JaimAybara

[DojoToad]

30 minutes ago, Raezold said:

 

You ask why? In my opinion it is because they have no feeling with the books. Or to put it more bluntly, they don't care about the source material. Someone who did care about the books would get those 'little' things right.

I don't think moving the ruby was a little thing.  If something happens in the show where it makes sense to have it in another position - then cool.  Otherwise why make the change?

[JaimAybara]

My guess is it’s as you say and the big reveal of the blade being Heron marked might happen when he fights in Falme. Then we as viewers get a big ah-ha moment and the showrunners get to have a gotcha moment for the book fans. (Finger pistols and smirks ensue). 

[CaddySedai]

I’d be fine with that. lol

[JaimAybara]

Haha me too. If that is what they end up doing. If we never get the herons then and only then will I give my Luke Skywalker, “but the texts!!!”

[CaddySedai]

We will get herons. Its referenced a billionty times lol. 

[king of nowhere]

51 minutes ago, Raezold said:

 

You ask why? In my opinion it is because they have no feeling with the books. Or to put it more bluntly, they don't care about the source material. Someone who did care about the books would get those 'little' things right.

here someone made a list of all the little things they got right.

it's easy to focus on what's missing instead of everything that's there. one can always find something missing.

indeed, the happiest people are not those who have more. But those who focus on what they have, instead of what they have not.

[TheDreadReader]

 

Looking at the various things Rafe has said on the subject, I think there is enough there to give them the benefit of the doubt on some of the changes we see.

 

There's a quote from one of the Q&A's about referencing knowing the impact a change might have down the road.   In the panel discussion, he referenced having a think document detailing aspects of locations they are depicting.  The professionals in the various crafts have the room to be creative but there do seem to be constraints on how much flexibility they have.   

 

That's a good thing to me.  The craftspeople are professionals.   They've do this stuff for a living.  They know what works and what doesn't work on screen.   They can factor in things that we may not be aware of.   They probably won't always get it right but if they get it right the majority of the time then I'm not going to complain too much.

 

Additionally, they are giving Brandon the opportunity to review the scripts (and I suspect but don't know to provide notes).  And, they have a fairly well-known fan on staff that is involved in the writing process.

 

On the heron marked swords.  There are various scenes and sequences where that matters more than it does in other places but there are simple ways to address them in a practical way. 

 

The one that most sticks out to me is when Rand and Mat meet the Whitecloaks in Baerlon.  One of the whitecloaks points out the heron mark but RJ doesn't go into a lot of detail about how Rand physically reacts in that sequence (iirc).  It could be because the whitecloak sees the heron on the hilt, it could be because Rand unconsciously and naturally lifts the blade a little out of the scabbard, or Rand could have unconsciously moved into a ready stance and that draws the attention of the whitecloak to his sword.   Any one of those three works at setting the scene and informing the viewer because we already know that Rand has a heron marked sword and what we are seeing is someone in-world recognizing that he has a heron marked sword and highlighting the significance of that in-world.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[JaimAybara]

27 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Looking at the various things Rafe has said on the subject, I think there is enough there to give them the benefit of the doubt on some of the changes we see.

 

There's a quote from one of the Q&A's about referencing knowing the impact a change might have down the road.   In the panel discussion, he referenced having a think document detailing aspects of locations they are depicting.  The professionals in the various crafts have the room to be creative but there do seem to be constraints on how much flexibility they have.   

 

That's a good thing to me.  The craftspeople are professionals.   They've do this stuff for a living.  They know what works and what doesn't work on screen.   They can factor in things that we may not be aware of.   They probably won't always get it right but if they get it right the majority of the time then I'm not going to complain too much.

 

Additionally, they are giving Brandon the opportunity to review the scripts (and I suspect but don't know to provide notes).  And, they have a fairly well-known fan on staff that is involved in the writing process.

 

On the heron marked swords.  There are various scenes and sequences where that matters more than it does in other places but there are simple ways to address them in a practical way. 

 

The one that most sticks out to me is when Rand and Mat meet the Whitecloaks in Baerlon.  One of the whitecloaks points out the heron mark but RJ doesn't go into a lot of detail about how Rand physically reacts in that sequence (iirc).  It could be because the whitecloak sees the heron on the hilt, it could be because Rand unconsciously and naturally lifts the blade a little out of the scabbard, or Rand could have unconsciously moved into a ready stance and that draws the attention of the whitecloak to his sword.   Any one of those three works at setting the scene and informing the viewer because we already know that Rand has a heron marked sword and what we are seeing is someone in-world recognizing that he has a heron marked sword and highlighting the significance of that in-world.

 

 

 

 

The character wrapped the hilt to disguise the mark as well, while they were on the run. Perhaps the taking out of the scabbard vs. unwrapping the hilt was decided to be more impactful. 
 

I find it harder to see a situation where Rand partially pulling his blade out in court would make sense. Particularly when they are already suspicious of him as an assassin. I suppose a guard who suspects could come over and pull the blade slightly then make the comment on the blade?

 

This being said, it is far more crucial later where brands become a part of the story. That clearly depicts it as on the hilt not the makers mark on the sword. It is one of those small things that I don’t fully understand changing if they did. (Again, highlighting “if”. I will withhold any true rebuke until I see it, I’m merely apprehensive.) Because it is important for the character building as well as the lore, and doesn’t take that much effort to incorporate effectively. 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, TheDreadReader said:

The one that most sticks out to me is when Rand and Mat meet the Whitecloaks in Baerlon.  One of the whitecloaks points out the heron mark but RJ doesn't go into a lot of detail about how Rand physically reacts in that sequence (iirc).  It could be because the whitecloak sees the heron on the hilt, it could be because Rand unconsciously and naturally lifts the blade a little out of the scabbard, or Rand could have unconsciously moved into a ready stance and that draws the attention of the whitecloak to his sword.   Any one of those three works at setting the scene and informing the viewer because we already know that Rand has a heron marked sword and what we are seeing is someone in-world recognizing that he has a heron marked sword and highlighting the significance of that in-world.

I think your first thought is the most realistic - the White Cloak saw the heron mark.  The other two seem a bit out of place on someone new to wearing a sword.  But that said, all the EF5 are under extreme stress and may have been acting strangely.

[Guest redgiant]

I have comments about the footage and most of you won't want to hear them, but as for Tam's sword ...

 

"Twice and twice shall he be marked Twice to live and twice to die ..."

 

Even the most fervent apologist has to be kidding me if you excuse not having precisely an embossed heron that protrudes from ONLY ONE SIDE of the HILT in order to carry out the first 2 of the 4 markings:

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Blademaster ...

 

"Rand al'Thor is confronted by Ba'alzamon while hunting for the Horn of Valere. While holding his sword Ba'alzamon heats the sword, thus branding a heron onto one of his palms. Later, in the battle with Ba'alzamon over the skies of Falme, Rand channeled saidin through his sword as he struck the final blow to Ba'alzamon with Heron Wading in the Rushes. This melted Tam's heron marked sword (even though it was Power-wrought) and branded the heron mark in his other palm (the blade was held in reverse). Thus each of Rand's hands are branded with the Heron Mark, fulfilling the prophecy from the Karaethon Cycle."

 

There is just no room for "adaptation" or changing this. None. Never. No excuses. So I hope to God that Rafe didn't screw with this, and that this is indeed present as it must be and we haven't seen it yet.

 

I mean, what goes on in the minds of writers who willingly and purposely change stuff like this? What is it going to take for some of you to admit this is way too different to be labeled as the WoT story we all read?

[Guest redgiant]

My comments on the footage as a whole

 

What I did like:

 

- Morraine walking past Nynaeve like she did.

 

- the close-up of Lan's face and hadori (minus the b.s. way he entered though).

 

- Rand and Perrin's look and banter.

 

- the sky and weather and the small way they make Emond's Field look underneath it.

 

- production values for the set and costuming are okay

 

- look of actors in general, in terms of carrying themselves, facial mannerisms and such are okay.

 

- special mention: Lanfear and Verin actresses look good (if that is who they actually are)

 

What I didn't like:

 

- some of the larger-than-one-scene themes and more grandiose integrity of the storyline is once again somewhat hamstrung for future scenes and topics, due to changes made

 

- why does a town of a few hundred (if that) villagers have such a diversity of looks that only a large city which is also open to foreigners/strangers and a "melting pot" mentality of every-day existence have? They react to any "outsider" the way they do here, and yet they are as eclectic as any NYC bar gathering would be.

 

- see above, esp. with how almost-comically uniformly they all stop and get quiet all at once and put hands to weapons (lol Nynaeve, +3 over-fierce) just b/c someone walks into a rowdy bar scene - as if 80-90% of the entire room would even notice this unless someone started shouting HELP!.

 

- how much experience does Nynaeve have in stabbing or defending in a knife fight I wonder? To the point of so immediately going to grip like that? Think that will be touched on or explained? Nah.

 

- why does the woman immediately know she is Aes Sedai, and that she is not an evil bad-intentioned witch like all the rumors say she is? So in Rafe-world, everyone even the smallest most isolated village know exactly who and what Aes Sedai are, the bursting out when Lan detects Trollocs that reveals who they really are, and those story angles are now gone as well. Is she still going to give them coins, including the other boys a different kind of coin, and say it's "just for some simple errands" if needed when they already know she is what she is?

 

- I fear Manetheren story-time is jettisoned as well in Rafe-world. B/c if they needed explaining as to who they used to be and have become, they would not already seem to know so much and need a refresher.

 

- why would Morraine and Lan want to make this kind of uber-visible entrance and not stay low-key.

 

- why does Morraine walk with her arms in that "I'm helpless" out-turned saunter sort of way.

 

- why does Lan ... oh forget it, you know exactly what I am about to gripe about there. The irony is as much as I have complained and feared the whole "Lan is now a samurai" thing, he actually looks pretty good...IF you cut the stupid entrance drama.

 

Sorry, but my impression so far is some good things offset by some pure YA-style shortcuts and silliness, but it remains to be seen how far down the rabbit-hole Rafe actually took all this. I am praying that it is just bad reads on my part, or this is not trending as it seems to be.

[JaimAybara]

21 minutes ago, redgiant said:

I have comments about the footage and most of you won't want to hear them, but as for Tam's sword ...

 

"Twice and twice shall he be marked Twice to live and twice to die ..."

 

Even the most fervent apologist has to be kidding me if you excuse not having precisely an embossed heron that protrudes from ONLY ONE SIDE of the HILT in order to carry out the first 2 of the 4 markings:

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Blademaster ...

 

"Rand al'Thor is confronted by Ba'alzamon while hunting for the Horn of Valere. While holding his sword Ba'alzamon heats the sword, thus branding a heron onto one of his palms. Later, in the battle with Ba'alzamon over the skies of Falme, Rand channeled saidin through his sword as he struck the final blow to Ba'alzamon with Heron Wading in the Rushes. This melted Tam's heron marked sword (even though it was Power-wrought) and branded the heron mark in his other palm (the blade was held in reverse). Thus each of Rand's hands are branded with the Heron Mark, fulfilling the prophecy from the Karaethon Cycle."

 

There is just no room for "adaptation" or changing this. None. Never. No excuses. So I hope to God that Rafe didn't screw with this, and that this is indeed present as it must be and we haven't seen it yet.

 

I mean, what goes on in the minds of writers who willingly and purposely change stuff like this? What is it going to take for some of you to admit this is way too different to be labeled as the WoT story we all read?

I agree with you. However do you think it possible they are indeed simply covering the brand for a reveal later to mess with book fans? Then when it is branded it burns away the wrappings on the hilt? This could be a slight deviation from the books that then returns to form when necessary and be an effective twist for readers such as yourself? Or would that be acquiescing too much up to that point? Example: the white cloaks, the court of Caemlyn, etc…
 

On a second note, we saw a picture of the the sword but could it also be an unfinished piece? Or simply what they want us to see before the show actually drops?

[king of nowhere]

12 minutes ago, redgiant said:

My comments on the footage as a whole

 

What I did like:

 

[...]

 

What I didn't like:

 

[...]

oh, finally something balanced!

 

I agree with some of your points, less so with others, but i certainly appreciate that some critic is willing to make distinctions. this, i believe, is what separates legitimate criticism from partisan attacks.

 

I won't try to debate point by point your concerns, I even share some of them. What I will say is that if I took everything i didn't like about the original books, I'd be still writing by the time the tv show airs. And yet I still loved the books.

From what I've seen so far, the pros of this show far outweight the cons.

[Guest redgiant]

Like I have always said, I am not a blind critic I just want to see the WOT story I read and love to be brought to life, and while I understand changes are needed in any media move (book to screen here), I also know what scenes, what beats, what characterizations and what foreshadowing/linked events transpired throughout the series that hooked me and made it into one of my all-time favorites.

 

Those are mainly what I am protective of. When I see any of those altered, omitted or deeply changed (and for no discernible reason other than "I want it to be different", then yes I get upset.

 

For example, I understand why the ruby dagger looks different. That has a scoped reason for why (it shows on camera better). However, when the root rationale boils down to just "it's artistic vision and choice" or  "it's so non-fans" for major omissions or alterations, I am not very forgiving.

 

Esp the "for non-fans" excuse. None of us were born understanding the plot of WoT, yet we all "got it" regardless of our ages or experiences. It's not hard to "get it" at all. And the clever use of foreshadowing, flashbacks, etc all work to enhance the richness of the story. If Rafe is building a TV show that an idiot who can't comprehend those techniques will like, then I don't consider that a valid excuse at all for why things are the way they are.

 

LOTR and GoT both "got it" as well. When they made those, they never omitted story just "for non-fans" at all. In fact, if anything they made their stories as complex and layered as their source material dictated it needed to be, and dared non-fans to watch and come along for the ride. Which they did. In droves.

 

Don't dumb-down for casuals, smarten-up for fans and the heretofore non-fans will elevate to become fans.

 

Take a lesson from that, Rafe. Please.

[JaimAybara]

The history of Manetheren is one of my favorite stories. As well as it’s link to all of the Emond’s Field townsfolk. I hope that doesn’t get cut. Especially with the juxtaposition provided in the fourth book.  

[Rose]

I like what Nae'Blis says about it in this video (at 13:00), because for both the trailer and the clip I basically had the same reaction he describes: initially, kind of put off and feeling like this isn't WoT, but upon re-watching, enjoying it more and more. I agree it's a matter of getting used to this not being the WoT we have in our heads and becoming comfortable with that. I don't do well with change in general, so I should probably expect to have a steeper curve at first lol

 

 

[king of nowhere]

I also hope for the manetheren, but it can be worked in the show very well.

moiraine arrives at the village, an aes sedai. it's not strange that people in remote areas would recognize an aes sedai ring, everyone tell stories about aes sedai. there's people in remote areas of the world that's never seen a car, but i'm sure they heard about them and would recognize one if shown.

anyway, aes sedai have a bad reputation, some people claim they are darkfriends, or just tyrants. you can hear the fear in marin's voice when she pronounces "sedai". then, shortly afterwards, the trollocs attack. some people will think she brought them to the village, and will form a mob. moiraine can then tell about manetheren.

 

as for changes, and things done better or worse; those things that work will enhance my appreciation of the books as I can picture the scenes with my mind's eye. Some people can do it just from the description, I do it much better if I have seen an actual image. The white tower is already a net improvement over my imagination, I could never figure out how the library and novice wings were supposed to fit.

Some things the show will change, and some of those changes I will like more than the original, they could become my new head canon.

as for the things that I will NOT like, when rereading the books I'll just pretend they never happened.

[CaddySedai]

To be fair LotR attempted to come to the screen several times before Jackson (two animated version) and even post jackson you see amazon.saying they can be even better. 

 

This is our first crack at the screen and really only the second visual media attempt (WoT the Game) - Im not counting the made for rights retention tv movie lol. 

 

So I am fine with this being big tent.  ring people into our lore - into our world. Make them curious. Make them then read the books. Then maybe someone like Jackson would wanna take a crack at them on the big screen as opposed to the small screen. 

 

Ya just gotta drive up the demand. And over all these years our core fanbase has only JUST gotten us to this point. Im hoping the series can double or triple that base and give reason to make more. 

 

I want more games. Movies. Merch. Graphic Novels. I love our universe and want it to grow. 

 

And you can’t use GoT fairly because they literally had the author WRITING the books for them to then make. Thats cheating. lol. 

[Agitel]

20 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

And you can’t use GoT fairly because they literally had the author WRITING the books for them to then make. Thats cheating. lol. 

 

Not sure I follow this comment. GRRM was writing ASOIAF since the mid-90s and wasn't writing the books for television. The last book to come out was in 2011, the same year as the first season of GOT. He hasn't released another book in the series since.

[CaddySedai]

31 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

Not sure I follow this comment. GRRM was writing ASOIAF since the mid-90s and wasn't writing the books for television. The last book to come out was in 2011, the same year as the first season of GOT. He hasn't released another book in the series since.

Sorry i meant he wrote screenplays for several episodes.

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

52 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

Not sure I follow this comment. GRRM was writing ASOIAF since the mid-90s and wasn't writing the books for television. The last book to come out was in 2011, the same year as the first season of GOT. He hasn't released another book in the series since.

G.R.R Martin has a long history of writing for TV... I'm actually safe in saying that his books are generally... easily adaptable to the screen.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0552333/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

[AusLeviathan]

22 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

Ya just gotta drive up the demand. And over all these years our core fanbase has only JUST gotten us to this point. Im hoping the series can double or triple that base and give reason to make more.

The fanbase hasn't really been the issue in getting an adaption on screen. The books were popular enough back in the 90's to justify an adaption if anyone wanted to make one. Certainly significantly more popular than some of the obscure material that has been given a big budget adaption over the past few decades.

 

The real difficulty in getting an adaption done has always been the scope of the series. It's massive, EOTW itself covers more material than the first two LOTR movies and that's the simplest book in the series from an adaption point of view. From there it gets more complicated, more mandatory main cast members. Since the scope made a movie adaption impossible it was always going to be made as a TV series and it's only in the past few years that it's become plausible to start a series with a budget big enough to at least give adapting EOTW a good attempt.

 

Of course that scope also means that this series may be the only chance we get for an adaption. So we've got to appreciate it for what we get because we're unlikely to get any other attempts to adapt WOT within the next few decades if this fails.

Edited October 12, 2021 by AusLeviathan