Egwene Reborn? RJ, more of a genius that we expected?

[Beau]

Has RJ ever revealed if Egwene is the rebirth of someone from Ages Past? I began a re-read of The Eye of the World today and Moiraine's story of Manetheren, more specifically the role of Eldrain, King Aemond's wife, drew shocking parallels to Egwene's roll in the Last Battle. In fact that whole battle sequence draws remarkably similar parallells to the Last Battle itself. My theory, is that Egwene is Eldrain reborn, and that RJ performed his greatest Forshadowing ever by showing us the Last Battle in book 1! 

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

That's a cool idea! There is also a theory that she is Latra Posae Decume, the woman who opposed Lews Therin's plan to seal the Dark One. This lines up a bit with how Egwene was opposed to Rand's plan to break the seals, but in this Age they agreed on one plan. 

[DojoToad]

Both are great ideas.  Never thought of them.

[boldnbeautiful]

I don't believe RJ ever said it, but there are snippets in the series that hints at Egwene may be Eldrene reborn. In the first book when Mat first shouts the Manatheren battlecry in the Old Tongue, Egwene says it sounded familiar and almost understood.

 

Her death is similar to Eldrene's death. Both of them overdrew the One Power after their husband warders died. Both of them killed many dreadlords. Egwene's husband died in the Field of Merrilor and Eldrene's husband died in Aemon's Field. 

[Kalessin]

I've just started a re-read, and the thought also occured to me too.

[wotfan4472]

I have always leaned on this theory myself. Not only are there hints of Egwene with Mat's battle cry in book one;

we also get a dream in book four, when she sees a broken statue, and almost recognizes it when in the Panarch's Palace in Tanchico. I find that highly suspicous.

[Thrasymachus]

Not only has he never confirmed that anyone other than Rand is someone else reborn, it would counter the mythos he set up, if he did.  The Dragon is the only person who's rebirth is certain and sure; even the other Heros of the Horn are not guaranteed to be reborn again, and crucially, when they are reborn, they don't know who they are or who their previous incarnations were.  

 

That said, it's entirely possible that Egwene is Eldrene reborn.  Or Latra Posea Decume, or Mabrium en Shereed, or even Bonwhin or Tetsuan.  There just won't ever be enough evidence one way or another to say anything with any confidence, and the authors won't betray their narrative set-up to give us a word-of-god either.

[SinisterDeath]

On 8/28/2021 at 10:59 AM, Thrasymachus said:

Not only has he never confirmed that anyone other than Rand is someone else reborn,  it would counter the mythos he set up, if he did

Reincarnation and Reborn are often synonymous. Everyone in the Wheel of Time Universe is Reincarnated/Reborn. A full turn of the wheel away, it's possible Rand al'Thor will be born again as Rand al'Thor from the Two Rivers, along side Egwene and his friends.

 

It doesn't contradict the mythos if Egwene were Eldrene, because she doesn't have her Memories, unlike Rand and LTT. We can't be sure she was Eldrene, and you're right, we only know for certainty that Rand is LTT Reborn. It's still a fun possible connection.

We know Brigette and Cain are always reborn together, and they always meet up even when they aren't "Heroes" of the horn.

It's entirely possible that certain souls have a type of destiny that happens in every incarnation, albeit with slight difference in each age. 

 

[Thrasymachus]

It's not clear even that everybody really is reborn/reincarnated.  That's certainly the belief, but Jordan fills his pages with unreliable narrators, even, perhaps especially, regarding cosmological or metaphysical reality.  It likely is true, and we do know that Birgitte gets reborn, though it was a live question all the way to the end whether she really would.  But the point is that while everybody else merely hopes for rebirth, the Dragon's rebirth is certain.  And nobody, except the Dragon, can point to historical figures and say, "That was me, in a previous life," at any point during their actual lives.  At best, some can do that after they've died.  Birgitte is really the only exception to that, due to the circumstances of her being torn out of Tel'aran'Rhiod.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Thrasymachus

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

It's not clear even that everybody really is reborn/reincarnated.  That's certainly the belief, but Jordan fills his pages with unreliable narrators, even, perhaps especially, regarding cosmological or metaphysical reality.  It likely is true, and we do know that Birgitte gets reborn, though it was a live question all the way to the end whether she really would.  But the point is that while everybody else merely hopes for rebirth, the Dragon's rebirth is certain.  And nobody, except the Dragon, can point to historical figures and say, "That was me, in a previous life," at any point during their actual lives.  At best, some can do that after they've died.  Birgitte is really the only exception to that, due to the circumstances of her being torn out of Tel'aran'Rhiod.

It is clear, that Every soul in the wheel of time is reincarnated/reborn. We only have a few known knowns. 

It's rather silly to claim that only Rand al'Thor's soul, in the Wheel of Time is the only soul ever to be reincarnated...

[Thrasymachus]

Not claiming that.  Only that only that Dragon's reincarnation is certain and sure.  For everyone else, well, it's not known.  It's hoped for, and in a few cases it can be retroactively established.  But the belief that souls are generally reincarnated is just that, a belief.  Not knowledge.

[Finnssss22]

It's pretty clear in tDR chapter 19 that Mat is Aemon reborn.

[Thrasymachus]

Could be.  It could also be that the Old Blood runs strong in the Two Rivers, and Mat is a direct descendant from Aemon, and upon waking up of having been Healed from the dagger using a device from the Age of Legends, "remembers" leading the Heart Guard in what seems to be Manetheren's final battle in a similar way that Aiel clan chiefs remember their history of the Aiel through their anscestors' eyes upon going through the crystal columns ter'angreal.  Mat's not the only one to break out into the Old Tongue, however.  And it seems odd that a Warder and husband of one of, if not the most powerful Aes Sedai of that era, would be hurling invective at Aes Sedai trying to Heal him, or be proclaiming himself, "no Aes Sedai meat."

[Finnssss22]

Big difference between uttering a few words/kind of understanding the old tongue and being 100% fluent in the old tongue like Mat is.

Remember, Mat was 100% fluent long before the Finn's filled his memories in the Rhuidean doorway.

 

Granted, that at the very least he is a direct descendent of Aemon but everything seems to indicate it's more than that.

The Finn's have specific titles for him..."Gambler", "Trickster", "Son of Battles" that clearly indicates his Soul is specifically known to them and directly tied to the Wheel, spit out for a purpose. Souls like that are not just randomly some descendent of another great general.  

[Thrasymachus]

We have no evidence that he's 100% fluent in the Old Tongue prior to the Finns.  He only pulls out a few phrases, now and then, and only in times of pretty extreme stress or its immediate aftermath.  He shows no real proclivity to it prior to being Healed either, beyond what his friends had, and his dreams just after being Healed were full of as much prophetic/future stuff as anything from the deep past, so who knows what was going on in his head then?

 

Speculation is fun, and the Wheel of Time is seemingly built to encourage it, but one must be careful not to mistake speculation for established fact.  And it can be tough, because RJ fills his pages with unreliable, but confident and authoritative narrators.

[Lilredpanda]

On 8/28/2021 at 11:59 AM, Thrasymachus said:

Not only has he never confirmed that anyone other than Rand is someone else reborn, it would counter the mythos he set up, if he did.  The Dragon is the only person who's rebirth is certain and sure; even the other Heros of the Horn are not guaranteed to be reborn again, and crucially, when they are reborn, they don't know who they are or who their previous incarnations were.  

 

That said, it's entirely possible that Egwene is Eldrene reborn.  Or Latra Posea Decume, or Mabrium en Shereed, or even Bonwhin or Tetsuan.  There just won't ever be enough evidence one way or another to say anything with any confidence, and the authors won't betray their narrative set-up to give us a word-of-god either.

Which is exactly why they leave it ambiguous, they know how much people love to speculate

[Finnssss22]

On 9/8/2021 at 9:03 AM, Thrasymachus said:

We have no evidence that he's 100% fluent in the Old Tongue prior to the Finns.  He only pulls out a few phrases, now and then, and only in times of pretty extreme stress or its immediate aftermath.  He shows no real proclivity to it prior to being Healed either, beyond what his friends had, and his dreams just after being Healed were full of as much prophetic/future stuff as anything from the deep past, so who knows what was going on in his head then?

 

Speculation is fun, and the Wheel of Time is seemingly built to encourage it, but one must be careful not to mistake speculation for established fact.  And it can be tough, because RJ fills his pages with unreliable, but confident and authoritative narrators.

 

We do actually have overwhelming evidence of his fluency prior to the Finn's filling his memories.

Do me a favour and give TSR chapter 15 a re-read.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Finnssss22

[Pembie]

I had the thought that Matt might be Hawkwing reborn but then I found out he has all the generals memories so maybe not

[thehumantrashcan]

10 minutes ago, Pembie said:

I had the thought that Matt might be Hawkwing reborn but then I found out he has all the generals memories so maybe not

You are correct.

[Pembie]

10 hours ago, thehumantrashcan said:

You are correct.

So he is Hawkwing with old general memories as well 

So I’m guessing Perrin is somebody too but I haven’t worked that out yet No past werewolves are there lol 

 

[thehumantrashcan]

13 hours ago, Pembie said:

So he is Hawkwing with old general memories as well 

So I’m guessing Perrin is somebody too but I haven’t worked that out yet No past werewolves are there lol 

 

No, he's not Hawkwing with old general memories, he's a ton of different generals at the same time.  In fact there is even a possibility he isn't Hawkwing at all but rather some generals that served under Hawkwing because Hawkwing is summoned by the Horn and it would be difficult for Hawkwing to be in two places at once.  Really, if any hero is listed as a hero of the horn, they shouldn't be reborn because they are more badly needed as a hero to be summoned by the horn rather than a person reborn during this time.

Also, no mention of Perrin being anyone reborn.

[SinisterDeath]

8 hours ago, thehumantrashcan said:

Also, no mention of Perrin being anyone reborn.

Closest we've got for Perrin are the mythical archetypes he's based on.

[Rhettles]

10 hours ago, thehumantrashcan said:

No, he's not Hawkwing with old general memories, he's a ton of different generals at the same time.  In fact there is even a possibility he isn't Hawkwing at all but rather some generals that served under Hawkwing because Hawkwing is summoned by the Horn and it would be difficult for Hawkwing to be in two places at once.  Really, if any hero is listed as a hero of the horn, they shouldn't be reborn because they are more badly needed as a hero to be summoned by the horn rather than a person reborn during this time.

Also, no mention of Perrin being anyone reborn.

All the heroes ARE reborn again and again to live new adventures and serve humanity.   Heroes cycle through the world of dreams being born, living, dying and returning again.   We know that Gaidal Cain is reborn during the series, but he would be a baby during the last battle.  We know that Birgitte had memories of many many  lives that began to fade after she was booted out of the world of dreams.     EVERYONE in Randland is reborn, that is canon.  Even people who are balefired are reborn.   What makes the Dragon special isn't that he is reborn, but that his reincarnation is actually prophesied.  The Dragon is the only soul that we KNOW who their previous incarnation was and we know their purpose.  Rand Al'thor IS Lews Therin Telamon.    

How OFTEN people are reborn, we don't know.  Could be right away, could be in a thousand years, or two thousand, or ten; we don't know.    That is why the catechism is "By my hope of Salvation and Rebirth".  

Mat's memories are complex.  He has blood memories, like Egwene, and I'm going to say Nynaeve, and maybe Perrin.   Memories that are passed on genetically.  The blood of Aemon's line, split into a thousand streams a thousand times sometimes come together to form a river again.  

Mat also MAY have memories of his own past life possibly that were unlocked during his healing from the Dagger, or they could be blood memories made prominent by his taveren nature or some combination of the two.  AND Mat has all the battle memories from as many of the ancient commanders who ever walked through the finns Red Stone doorways  that the finn could fit into Matt's head.    

Matt's head is a bit of a mess.  

[Finnssss22]

On 9/19/2021 at 9:27 AM, Pembie said:

So he is Hawkwing with old general memories as well 

So I’m guessing Perrin is somebody too but I haven’t worked that out yet No past werewolves are there lol 

 

Seems fairly clear Perrin was born with 2 souls, a human one and a wolf one.

It's why he can do what the dual soul of Lan's cousin Isam and Rand's uncle Luc can do.

[Pembie]

Perrin really isn’t in this story much it seems which is disappointing well his had one scene where he says he has to go help Rand and then vanishes in Lord of Chaos anyway 

I still have no idea what is going on with that magical bowl unless it will end the drought and now Matt has been attacked by Aiel like aren’t they Rands people baffling